DC Relaunching Everything in the Fall?

The problem isn't so much that they are changing things, as that's basically what happens every month, but rather the why and the how that pisses me off.

I like Batman. Let me correct myself. I like modern age Batman. I like the modern age, as go I think most people... or at least the majority of people like the majority of the modern age.

And I don't have a problem with the modern age coming to an end or them rebooting. What I have a problem with is that they are doing it stupidly and not all that well from what I can tell and they aren't ending the stories so much as just not writing them any more because they don't seem to be able to figure out how to any more for a few characters or some idiot doesn't want to write anything they didn't create from the ground up.

If read Batman after this relaunch it is not the character I like. It is not the character that I wanted to support by getting this book. There is no attachment because this isn't the same character and I don't care to read what happens to that new character that has the same name.

Maybe I will like these new characters, but I don't see why I would. They're bastardizations of the characters I like with incomplete histories so every time I read them I will be thinking this character sucks bring back my character or that rocks, that would have worked well with my character.

I think that if they really wanted to do something like this they should have canceled a lot of the worse books, streamlining the ones they already have, and then launch an Ultimate line up that has Batman at it's center rather than Superman. I never really did get how Superman is all hat inspirational... He's got a lot of powers, that's not something that makes me go "If he can do it I can too," but Batman, having people say that about him, that makes sense. I'd also kill a number of Batman books, as much as I love them...please stop.

OH and the reason you don't hear much about when they did it to Wonder Woman 50 times is because it's happened so many times and noone cares and those who do don't stand out enough because there is 60 other titles... it's kinda like the whole, when they did it to george you were silent, when they did it to judie you were silent, now that it's happening to you want me to help you? Not going to happen.

Lightfoot,

I think you're really missing the point here. Reboots are now commonplace within comics, and they've happened for DC at least three times now inside of ten years as opposed to the one singular reboot with the original Crisis after fifty years of continuity that was deservingly needed to be overhauled.

Yes, those stories you mentioned are still there to be read, but any good comic book history needs just that, history. If the continuity DC wishes to employ is cherry-picked from various eras of the last twenty or thirty years, then you by extension invalidate other eras of the same continuity. The examples given in another thread where they go over ten titles and point out very valid questions to be asked are just that, very valid.

For example, retconning the New Teen Titans run not only calls aspects of Dick Grayson's origin as Nightwing into question, but also the formation of the Titans to begin with by removing Donna Troy, as it seems they're planning to do.

The new continuity is haphazard at best; when the original Crisis took place, there was a unified approach to a unified DC Universe, with mutually agreed origins across the titles to ensure that the story held together. That unfortunately fell apart and 'necessitated' the woeful Parallax storyline.

And this is really the crux; DC has a very rich tapestry and history to draw upon going back to 1938. The Justice League really doesn't have a context without a Justice Society that came before it.

And Durakken's absolutely right in that the writers are just avoiding anything they don't want to write themselves; good writers either deconstruct or build upon what writers have done before them. One can't advocate a reboot of a title just because a creative team leaves a book, but DC is doing this wholesale and invalidating entire storylines, some of which have only taken place in the last two years, let alone the last twenty.

And Geoff Johns is responsible for not only Final Crisis, but the Superboy-Prime storyline, which he himself has come out and said was a mistake. Turning the character into a venting mouthpiece and a chariacture of 'rabid' old-school fans alienated readers, not just those who he aimed his self-conscious diatribes at. If the Modern Age was functioning remotely well, then we wouldn't have the figures of nearly one-third of their titles selling so badly they're almost costing the company a loss to make than they are any sort of profit.

Geoff Johns is not the wunderkind of DC Comics that many would wish to portray him as; I spoke to at least one DC artist three years ago and was told point-blank that many at DC didn't care for the lack of understanding he had of their characters. Yes, this is an anecdotal story without any proof, but I form some of my opinion on that basis.

In short, you can't pick and choose your continuity 'just because', and that is really what DC is doing. That's not clever editorial control, it's going to cause them even more headaches in the medium term as they discover that they're creating contradictions from the get-go in their new continuity, and ultimately, it won't stick. Every single time something like this has been tried, casual readers will ask 'Why doesn't Superman look like Superman?' or 'Isn't Bruce Wayne Batman? Who's this guy in the armor?' and they go back to the status quo. And the status quo is necessary for one word: continuity.


S.

I have mixed feelings about the whole thing.
Mostly it's 'this could be interesting.'
I won't say I'm 'looking forward to it,' because that's not quite true. But I am willing to give the stories a chance.
My sticking points are the loss of character growth that I see, admittedly from the outside. A few examples from my perspective

Barbara Gordon, as others have pointed out, has outgrown the role and need to be Batgirl. Now, she’s back under the cowl, and there’s no sign of the Batgirl that we just started to read two years ago, let alone the Batgirl we saw before that. Could the stories about Barb and why she went back to swinging around Gotham be interesting? Sure. And I want to know why, if as they say, she was shot and crippled by Joker, and had a run as Oracle, why she decided to go back as Batgirl.

Blue Beetle. Another character I really like. He’s see quite a bit of growth in the short time he’s been around. Started High School and even graduated. Had some interesting adventures before and after. And yet they are throwing him back into High School as a student. Well, I’m sure some interesting stories can be told there. But aren’t we gonna get some repeats? Those of us who followed his series are probably going to have a sense of ‘haven’t we been here before?’

Firestorm looks to be Ronnie Raymond and Jason Rusch. Interesting. That’s who the character is right now. Ok, I can live with that. The whole part where they are supposed to be ‘classmates’ has me scratching my head though. I really don’t see them going back to High School. And we have Blue Beetle for High School Superhero stories. The Ronnie that we knew is several years past college, and Jason had just started. So to have them ‘classmates’ means that Ronnie seems to have regressed several years. But again, I am willing to see how this is presented and where it goes before I take up arms.

In many ways a total reboot of everything would have been easier, but they are too scared of losing long time readers. Still, as I said, I am willing to see where it goes.
DC knows they are taking a tremendous gamble here, but we their fickle readers and their writers have pushed them into a corner. For them it’s grow or die time.

Wow. Newsarama seems to want to play all sides of this thing. First we have the “Possible casualties of the reboot” thing. And I must stress it’s possible casualties, there’s nothing confirmed yet. Sevenpenny and I posted that link for discussion, not a whole “Whaaaa favorite is gone”. We know nothing at all yet about how it will all play out. For that reason alone, I will wait and see what happens before making a full judgement.
Now I find a Newsarama post about “Fact-checking 10 Myths about the DCnU.” I’m just going to repost the whole thing here as I have some thoughts I want to share on some of the “Myths”.

MYTH 10: "Everything Goes Back to Normal After Flashpoint"
As DC was promoting Flashpoint, most fans were convinced the story wouldn't really change the DCU. They compared it to other alternate universe stories like Age of Apocalypse, which were fun to read, but made few changes to the regular universe.
Writer Geoff Johns hinted at something bigger, though, when he told Newsarama in April that the event was "different than anything that has been done before because of what we have coming out of it."
Now, we know "what DC has coming out of it." There's a brand new timeline for the DCU. The JLA is the first super team, and they only came together five years ago. Superman is the world's first superhero, and other changes have been made as editorial sees fit.
So the myth that everything in Flashpoint will mean nothing when the DCU returns to normal is definitely a busted myth, and that leads to...
---This one has to be a really old ‘myth’ as the stuff coming out of DC for the past month or so has proved beyond a doubt that the DCU is changing.

MYTH 9: "Flashpoint Characters Don't Matter"

Sure, those new characters and concepts in Flashpoint were cute, but did anyone really think they'd stick around?

Turns out they will, and as time goes on, we're finding out that more and more of them will be part of the DCnU.

From Peter Milligan's new character Mindwarp, who stars in September's Justice League Dark, to the brand new Element Woman, who appears to be part of the Justice League, a lot of new characters introduced in Flashpoint are surviving the end of that series and sticking around for the launch of the DCnU.

---Haven’t heard this one, but it is understandable why people would think it. I must say that the character of Element Woman they show for this one has me thinking of a female Metamorpho.

MYTH 8: "Legion Reboot"

Fans of the Legion of Super-Heroes are used to reboots. But it was disheartening to think the Legion would get rebooted yet again in September, particularly when the new Legion of Super-Heroes series by Paul Levitz only launched a little over a year ago.

But it turns out there's no reboot for the Legion. Not even much of a creative change, since Levitz is back on the main series with a new artist, Francis Portella. The only difference is that seven of the Legion members will become lost in time for a spin-off series by Fabian Nicieza and Pete Woods called Legion Lost.

So for once, Legion fans heard the word "reboot" from DC and didn't have to worry. Weird.

---I’ve nothing really to say on this one as I haven’t followed the Legion for quite a few years now.



MYTH 7: "JSA Characters are Gone"

Well, this myth isn't exactly a myth, because it's partially true.

In the DCnU, the JLA is the world's first super team. And they only "got together" five years ago -- a story detailed in the first arc of Justice League by Geoff Johns and Jim Lee. DC Executive Editor Eddie Berganza told Newsarama it takes place at the "dawning of the age of superheroes."

So the DC-founding superhero team called the Justice Society is gone.

But the characters aren't.

DC confirmed that the JSA characters will be used elsewhere in the DCnU, though few have shown up in information released so far. Dan DiDio said on his Facebook page that "Karen Starr" (Power Girl's alter ego) will show up in one of the new 52 issues, although it's important to note DiDio said "Karen" and not "Power Girl." (And some have been guessing Power Girl could be the mystery woman in the new JLA image.)

We also know Mr. Terrific still exists, with writer Eric Wallace promising "cosmic" stories in his future, meaning he'll have to team up with someone who can fly into space.

That means characters like Stargirl, Jakeem Thunder, and Commander Steel probably still exist too. And they could show up anytime in not only Mr. Terrific, but any DC book.

Plus, there's always a chance DC could insert a secret "society of mystery men" into the universe's history. (After all, the once-WildStorm team Stormwatch existed "secretly" for a while in the DCnU, according to writer Paul Cornell.)

Or the Justice Society could always form later, because the characters do exist in the DCnU.

"Nothing is cut and dry," DC Editor-in-Chief Bob Harras told Newsarama about the apparent elimination of the JSA. "That is something that you have to keep reading to see what happens."

---Now this one has some credence. It’s really the ‘old JSA’ characters we kinda to worry about until DC finally reveals where they have been.


MYTH 6: "The DCnU Costumes Are All Jim Lee Designs"

Not really. The "myth" of Jim Lee designing all the costumes spins out of truth, because the DC co-publisher "spearheaded" the costume redesigns that we've seen for the DCnU's 52 #1 issues. After all, he's a DC co-publisher with a lot of artistic clout.

But Newsarama has interviewed several artists and writers who revealed that few costumes are straight-up Lee designs. Most of them were first designed by the series writers and artists, with tweaks from Lee, Cully Hamner and the editorial staff.

Tim Drake's wings? According to artist Brett Booth, they were an idea from series writer Scott Lobdell, and all the Teen Titans costumes were designed by Booth first with Lobdell's ideas in mind. Only later did Lee and Hamner assist on some Titans costumes. "There was a lot of back and forth about everything," Booth said.

Hawkman's organic weapon and costume? They're part of the story by Tony Daniel. "There are reasons for the changes that will become clear," Phillip Tan told Newsarama. "It's not just myself and Tony who are going through it. All the editors and Jim Lee and everyone have given input about how this is being executed visually and how it's affecting the story."

Keith Giffen summarized it in our interview with him about his new OMAC series, for which he did the original design on the lead character: "Jim Lee and Cully are the ones helping out with that, and it's not like they're forcing designs or anything," Giffen told Newsarama. "It's really about 'helping,' because they know the guys who do the book day-in and day-out are the ones who make the costumes work for their book. It's a team effort. Then I think Cully does the official turnarounds on the characters so everyone will know what the character looks like when they appear in different issues."

---This is another one that anybody who has been reading things knows is false. But I suppose those people who believed it don’t read as much. That and it is really what DC put forward to begin with.

MYTH 5: "Barbara Gordon Was Never Shot"

Ever since she was shot and paralyzed in the pages of The Killing Joke, Barbara Gordon has been kicking butt from a wheelchair as the character known as Oracle.

But in September, she's no longer in a wheelchair, and she's no longer Oracle. She's back to wearing spandex and swinging through the streets of Gotham as Batgirl.

So apparently, the DC "reboot" erases the shooting that occurred in The Killing Joke, right?

Wrong.

As Harras and Berganza told Newsarama, The Killing Joke stands. In fact, Berganza said Killing Joke "is really crucial to what we're doing." And Scott Snyder told Newsarama that Barbara's change from Oracle to Batgirl will be explained in story.

That explanation is presumably going to be written by Geoff Johns in Flashpoint, even though the writer's Booster Gold series established that Barbara's shooting could not be prevented through time travel.

This should be interesting...

---As they said, this should be interesting. It’s something I wanna know.


MYTH 4: "The DCnU is an Alternate Earth"

Many of the theories among fans about how the DCnU is created have been rather extreme.

They include everything from the DCnU being an alternate universe, to each comic existing in its own universe among the 52.

To clear up the confusion, Newsarama point blank asked Harras and Berganza: Are the stories we're seeing in September taking place on New Earth?

The answer? Yes.

"It's not Earth Prime or any other earth. It's not Earth-One or anything," Berganza said.

Myth busted.

---Things would have been easier if people could have said that everything from now on was an alternate reality. But Nooooo DC doesn’t want to do that…


MYTH 3: "Tim Drake & Dick Grayson's History is Gone"

When Dick Grayson showed up in a Nightwing costume and Tim Drake was only mentioned as a Teen Titan, it appeared that the former Robins were being shuffled off to a status that erased their history.

After all, Dick Grayson was just Batman, but suddenly he isn't. And Tim Drake had a solo series where he worked within the Batman family, but suddenly isn't mentioned among the Bat-titles.

Those fears were all laid to rest by Batman writer Scott Snyder and Nightwing writer Kyle Higgins, who confirmed to Newsarama that Tim is still in the Bat-family and Dick is still a former Batman.

"In Batman #1, we'll have establishing moments where you'll get to see the roles played by Damian, Tim, and Dick," Snyder said. "They are part of the first issue."

"I don't think you could do a Nightwing book at this point without dealing with the fact that he was just Batman," Higgins said. "One of the reasons he's Nightwing now is because of him just being Batman."

Of course, while these former male Robins appear to be still around, no official word on female former-Robin Stephanie Brown now that she's no longer Batgirl, although there are rumors she'll be back to her Spoiler identity in the DCnU.

---This is another big one. Especially since the Teen Titans solicit makes it sound like Tim hasn’t been a hero before…



MYTH 2: "It's a 'Flash of Light' Reset"

No, a flash of light doesn't change everything without explanation. From all indications, the changes to the DCU will be explained in story, and the place where they get their explanation will likely be Flashpoint #5.

"None of it is a radical flash in the sky and boom, things are different," Scott Snyder told Newsarama of the Bat-verse changes, indicating that readers will understand the reasons behind the DCnU.

Because all of September's #1 issues are supposed to be new reader friendly, this in-story explanation will probably occur in Flashpoint. (That's not surprising, since Geoff Johns has been tasked with explained big revamps before, from Hawkman's history to Green Lantern's resurrection.)

Of course, we expect that most of the changes won't get a highly scientific explanation, and they might actually leave readers scratching their heads. For example, we doubt the exact theories behind how Grifter is suddenly in the DCU will be detailed.

But something does "happen" to cause this. And it happens in continuity, and in story.

---This one really doesn’t matter to me. But your mileage may vary.


MYTH 1: "It's a Total Reboot"

OK, this one may get confusing, so hang onto something.

It's not a hard reboot. But it is a soft reboot.

Yeah, we know. Kind of kooky, huh?

But it's the truth: The terminology being used behind-the-scenes at DC is "soft reboot." And that means some things change, and other things stay the same. Some things are erased, and some things aren't.

Green Lantern books? Batman books? No reboot.

Superman books? JLA origin? Total reboot.

To give the term some background, in our interview with Berganza, he twice referenced the Geoff Johns relaunch style as a model for the DCnU approach -- specifically mentioning Teen Titans and Green Lantern. In other words, DC is hoping to mimic the Johns method of keeping what works, altering what doesn't, and explaining the changes.

Of course there's one big difference: Johns' comics had one mind behind them, and there are a lot of cooks in the DCnU kitchen. So the "soft" idea and its changes/non-changes might get confusing in-house too. To prevent continuity errors, Harras said the editorial team "compiled a timeline" for the DCnU. But the level of detail in that timeline could make or break the success of keeping continuity in check. After all, if the reboot is too "soft," history could get more muddled than it is now.

So will soft reboot equal soft sales? Or will the keep-what-works approach to the DCnU be a boon to comics? Nobody can predict for until the results are in, but fans will probably come up with a few more myths in the meantime.

---Again, anybody paying attention to what DC has been saying for the whole month of June knows it’s not a total reboot. But it would have been easier if it was….

ok so here is the supposed line up for the relaunched comics and who will be on them....

title writer/artist

Justice League - Geoff Johns & Jim Lee

Wonder Woman - Brian Azzarello & Cliff Chiang

Aquaman - Geoff Johns & Ivan Reis

The Flash - Francis Manapul & Brian Buccallato

The Fury of Firestorm - Gail Simone, Ethan Van Sciver & Yildiray Cinar

Green Arrow - J.T. Krul & Dan Jurgens

Justice League International - Dan Jurgens & Aaron Lopresti

Mister Terrific - Eric Wallace & Robert Robinson

Captain Atom - J.T. Krul & Freddie Williams III

DC Universe Presents - Rotating Teams

The Savage Hawkman - Tony Daniel & Philip Tan

Green Lantern - Geoff Johns & Doug Mahnke

Green Lantern Corps - Peter Tomasi, Fernando Pasarin & Scott Hanna

Green Lantern: The New Guardians - Tony Bedard, Tyler Kirkham & Batt

Red Lanterns - Peter Milligan, Ed Benes & Rob Hunter

Batman - Scott Snyder & Greg Capullo

Detective Comics - Tony Daniel

Batman & Robin - Peter Tomasi & Patrick Gleeson

Batman: The Dark Knight - David Finch & Richard Friend

Batwoman - J.H. Williams III, Haden Blackman & Amy Reeder

Batgirl - Gail Simone, Ardian Syaf & Vicente Cifuentes

Birds of Prey - Duane Swierczynski & Jesus Saiz

Catwoman - Judd Winick & Guillem March

Nightwing - Kyle Higgins & Eddy Barrows

Red Hood and The Outlaws - Scott Lobdell & Kenneth Rocafort

Batwing - Judd Winick & Ben Oliver

Swamp Thing - Scott Snyder, Yanick Paquette & Francesco Francavilla

Animal Man - Jeff Lemire, Travel Foreman & Dan Green

Justice League Dark - Peter Milligan & Mikel Janin

Demon Knights - Paul Cornell, Diogenes Neves & Oclair Albert

Frankenstein, Agent of SHADE - Jeff Lemire & Alberto Ponticelli

Resurrection Man - Dan Abnett, Andy Lanning & Fernando Dagnino

I, Vampire - Josh Fialkov & Andrea Sorrentino

Voodoo - Ron Marz & Sami Basri

Legion Lost - Fabian Nicieza & Pete Woods

Legion of Superheroes - Paul Levitz & Francis Portela

Teen Titans - Scott Lobdell, Brett Booth, & Norm Rapmund

Static Shock - John Rozum, Scott McDaniel & Jonathan Glapion

Hawk & Dove - Sterling Gates & Rob Liefeld

Stormwatch - Paul Cornell & Miguel Sepulveda

Blackhawks - Mike Costa & Ken Lashley

Sgt. Rock and the Men of War - Ivan Brandon & Tom Derenick

All-Star Western - Jimmy Palmiotti, Justin Gray & Moritat

Deathstroke - Kyle Higgins, Joe Bennett, & Art Thibert

Grifter - Nathan Edmundson, Cafu, & Bit

Omac - Dan DiDio, Keith Giffen, & Scott Koblish

Blue Beetle - Tony Bedard, Ig Guara & Ruy Jose

Suicide Squad - Adam Glass & Marco Rudy

Action Comics - Grant Morrison & Rags Morales

Superman (Man of Tomorrow) - George Perez & Jesus Merino

Superboy - Scott Lobdell, RB Silva & Rob Lean

Supergirl - Michael Green, Mike Johnson & Mahmud Asrar

and last but not least.....

Batman Incorporated - Grant Morrison & Chris Burnham

i get a little skittish aound some of these writers....scott lobdell....judd (whose coming out of the closet next) winnick....

Artist wise....Rob (I dont really know how to draw) Liefield....no f'ing thank you!

Lightfoot,

I don't know how to multi-quote, so I'm just going to answer your points (if you can call them that), but you're really determined to either just have an argument for its' own sake or whatever. You can reply if you want, but more than a few of your statements are deliberately inflammatory. I won't be responding to those.

I concede the point on reboots, but I guarantee you from my perspective I've walked into stores over the last few years and I've lost track over the multiple changes of Batmen, Supermen and Flashes to the point where I never felt I could even remotely get on board as a casual reader. From Identity Crisis to Infinite Crisis to Final Crisis, DC didn't seem like they could stop having big multi-title crossover events to the point I frankly lost interest even as a semi-casual reader.

Regarding Zero Hour or Flashpoint, you're putting words in my mouth by inference. If I had a point to make about Flashpoint, I would've made it. I didn't read Flashpoint, therefore I don't have an opinion to offer on it. Done.

What's your point about Donna Troy? Are you just arguing that in your opinion 'Who is Donna Troy?' wasn't well-recieved, it's what...justification for removing her entirely? I don't know what to say there.

Post-Crisis on Infinite Earths: Again, you're arguing your memory of what you percieve as a disorganised reconstruction of DC continuity. It's established fact that Dick Giordano, Marv Wolfman, George Perez and many of the main writers on books of the time agreed on key events of the new continuity and moved forward from that point. The fact that Johns and Wolfman (to his detriment) wrote such an incredibly half-baked and barely credible response in Infinite Crisis (amounting to what...Alexander Luthor of Earth-3 is just another Luthor and is power-hungry? Doesn't that characterisation contradict the very nature of Earth-3 characters in that they were opposites, Ultraman being evil Superman and so on?) amounts to very thin justifications for later actions. If you can make Superboy-Prime the ultimate fanboy whiner with godlike powers, then you can justify not dealing with any continuity you choose.

And yes, that is a personal opinion, Lightfoot.

1938: Are you just being facetious? I'm saying DC has a rich history to draw upon. Period. You want to play some semantic game that I obviously don't know the rules of here.

....then you go on basically insulting me by saying I have a crystal ball and I don't know anything whilst saying they're being incredibly brave and foresighted, whilst also having no idea whether anything they're doing is of justifiable quality.

Nothing is permanent in comics: you know this, I know this. They do these things because the readership is largely cyclical and long-term collectors are a minority of their market.

I've responded to your points as politely as I feel I can to you, but instead of having a discussion, you're reactionary and almost spoiling for a fight.

You're welcome to rant or argue or make whatever point you'd care to if you choose to reply. But if I wanted a sparring partner, I'd go box in a gym. You've clearly chosen to be argumentative with more people than just myself in this thread, and you're welcome to continue to do so, just not with me.


S.