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Yeah - and if that option being asked for were available (private/invite only,) nobody would have had to deal with that.|
Originally Posted by bromley
I was on one BAF a couple days ago where the "league leader" kicked two full teams worth of people because he just wanted to play with his friends.
That was after waiting around the LFG turned on for 20 minutes and then zoning and then waiting through that endless BAF cutscene. Then watching name after name get kicked until finally, poof. Let me tell you, that was so much fun. Slogging through the system to get kicked for no reason. Makes me love this community, it does. |
So did you grab the others (you did say two teams worth) and start a league of your own to run a trial? You could have done either one with that. The ability was in your hands - and the information.
Why are you so adamant about staying on a team where you're unwanted?
Players wanting private leagues have adapted to the lack of a private option by removing unwanted players. If they were unable to kick after the trial starts, they'd ask you to leave. If you refused, they'd all leave and requeue again. It's instant for them, they meet the minimum size.
You're not sitting in a queue for 20 minutes because there's so many people ahead of you, you're sitting in it because there's not enough people to start. Most players are flocking towards Pocket D or the RWZ to form PuG groups because it gives them more control than the turnstile, which seems happy to start Lambda with 8 people when people don't even want to queue until they have a group of 16.
You can adapt by joining the dozens of pick up groups forming every day in the RWZ or Pocket D until the devs make the turnstile more appealing. About 4/5th of my trials done have been by hopping on a team being formed in those areas. The other 1/5th was with the turnstile, but within the first week of release when people actually used it.
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That leader was an idiot. If the number of people in the trial are below the minimum, then the LFG queue automatically adds people from the queue up to the minimum. In the case of BAF, that is 12 people.|
Originally Posted by bromley
I was on one BAF a couple days ago where the "league leader" kicked two full teams worth of people because he just wanted to play with his friends.
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I hope everyone kicked petitioned the idiot and the GMs gave him a much needed time-out from the game.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
I hate kicking players from a team or league, but sometimes we do want to run something with just a core group of players. For example this evening we ran a Lambda with 8 players intending to test the "synchronized" badge by seeing if it was possible to get the astral multiple times. All of us were very experienced and played together often and we were all on voice chat. (It isn't possible to get multiple astrals for getting synchronized several times in one trial by the way... we had 3 times for sure that we hit the 2 second timer and another couple of probables.)
When we entered we picked up a pug player. The League leader explained to him that we were running a non-standard trial to test something and asked him if he was listening. After about a minute and the pug player having not responded he was kicked. Nobody wanted to have to get rid of him but what we were testing required tight coordination and if the player in question couldn't be bothered to respond then it was pointless to keep him on the team.
Having some method for locking the league would have eliminated all the problems. Forcing an unwanted extra player on the league was beneficial to nobody. And Snow Globe, nobody has any "right" to be on anyone's team. Team and league leaders have the power to kick for a reason and the trials are the only instance in the entire game where someone can force their way onto a team. This isn't a raid that happens in an open public zone, it's just another instanced mission that can accommodate more than a single team.
All that said I have no problem with the turnstile as long as it's an OPTION. Heck, allow it to work for normal teams if the team decides to flag themselves for it. Likewise allow teams and leagues to flag themselves as closed to the turnstile.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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Originally Posted by Lothic
Well I'm not going to "Cry Doom!" either but frankly I never personally counted on the LFG tool being a "successful" feature to begin with. I suppose on some level I'm glad they attempted something along those lines. But sadly I predict it's going to be a tool that most people won't use regardless if there's an option to prevent people from getting tossed into random leagues or not. *shrugs*
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Have to totally agree here. I tried out the LFG on Beta test and wound up on a minimal sized team doing the BAF. Not a soul in that league had a clue what we needed to do and the leader stated almost immediately.. "I only got the star cause i joined first I don't know what to do!" Obviously we failed miserably. The Q doesn't bother to organize teams so they have a good mix of ATs. The Q doesn't recruit to ensure we have enough DPS, controll, etc. all it does is tossed the first 8-12 players that join up togther and drops them into a trial saying "Have fun boys and girls.. oh the hospital is that way!" ---->
People in game were all excited about using it to join any sort of team imaginable. Now lets assemble an STF using the Q. Ohh look 4 scrapper, NO tank or Brute, 2 blasters, one good controller and a EMP defender that thinks his only job is to heal and didnt bother with any of his secondary powers. Instead he took three different types of travel power! No offense fellow EMPS I play them too but you know the type of H3al0R I am talking about. So we have no aggro control at all, half a team of melee which should make Ghost Widow a real JOY to battle and a Defender that may as well stand at the door and hand out towels. Yeah that will work! LOL Now I have seen leagues form that got close to 16 or 24 and then just went ahead and entered hoping to pick up whatever from the LFG or simply go with what they got and I did a few LFG teams after it went live that had people that knew what they were doing and we did very well but don't COUNT on that. If you want to be in a league and do trials there are, on Virtue at least, no less than 6 or 7 global channels to join and advertise you are building a league or looking to join one. Why let a computer program decide what your team will look like when you can build one yourself?
As for the limited trial sizes . lag alone has made many people chose to run with 16, 18 or whatever on the BAF rather than 24. They CHOSE to go with less to cut the lag so I can certainly see why finding 2-3 uninvited team mates once they get inside would upset them and result in some kicks. IF they gave us the option to lock in a league size limit it would help spare a lot of bruised egos when the KICK ME sign gets taped to your back and you wind up back outside. I have seen Master Of Lamdba teams advertsing for 50 (+3) only members and specifying what they need and want. So while zoning one guy crashes and the LFG assigns a 50 + nothing that entered the Q in his place? Don;t you think that League leader wants that guy GONE? he didn't recruit him and chances are with not even an Alpha slot open let alone tier 3 or better in three power slots how much help will this replacement be? Bye Bye Mo Run!
Now as mentioned what ANGLE are we missing there? and as Lothic mentioned earlier if it involves some goofy exploit that will eventually lead to restrictions like what they had to do with AE then I am sorry I don't consider that an angle ..that's a cheat and the people that ultimately suffer from those are the good players not looking to exploit the system. If its the feelings of the players that are getting kicked... well if leagues had the option to limit size to their desired level to begin with no one would be getting kicked so how are their feelings being hurt? this is more than just a game its a social network.. stop blindly joining the Q hoping to find a team that will help you and try actively asking "Anyone forming a trial? Willing to join BAF or LAM!" in globals. You'd be amazed how many leader are looking for fill slots and will grab you in a second. TOO SHY to advertise? fine WATCH the globals and send a quiet little tell to the league leader 'I'll join" in most cases that is all it will take. now.. how hard was that? cause if THAT frightens you maybe you are better off not joining a league. We can be very loud and excitable. We woot when we win and we love to call villains nasty names while we pound on them. Your delicate personality may never be the same again. LOL
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
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Snow, kicking someone from a team or trial is NOT a petitionable offense, every team or league leader has the power to kick players for any reason. The leader in question was within his rights to kick anyone he may choose. The only recourse that the players who were kicked have is to not team with that person again.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
That leader was an idiot. If the number of people in the trial are below the minimum, then the LFG queue automatically adds people from the queue up to the minimum. In the case of BAF, that is 12 people.
I hope everyone kicked petitioned the idiot and the GMs gave him a much needed time-out from the game. |
Again, this is something that wouldn't happen if the league leader could lock the league.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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Given how he's acting in this thread, I think I can guess. I certainly wouldn't want to team with him.
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Originally Posted by Kailure
Why are you so adamant about staying on a team where you're unwanted?
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Wanted: Origin centric story arcs.
If you've only played an AT once (one set combo) and "hate" it - don't give up. Roll a different combo. It may just be those sets not clicking for you.
Ahhh Snow Snow As usual your post are at least amusing I loved this line..
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Hundreds of Trials are forming a day on Virtue and the vast majority are built before the team goes near the LFG. If that's not accomplishing exactly what you say they can't or don't have the right to do then what is? Look I did several trials on Beta and the first try was by just joining the Q. I wound up on a minimal sized team with no Tank/Brute to pull the AV, very few controllers or Defenders to buff/debuff, a league leader that had no idea why he even had the star, and not a soul that knew what we were supposed to do. Wonderful experience we failed miserably. Next trial I did I joined a league forming in Pocket D. The leader built each team to be sure the had a good mix of ATs and we joined the Q ready to begin. You can imagine how much better that one went. Sort of like the way most trials run right now and with the same successes. fact is the Q has become just a way to enter the trial and occasionally pick up one or two added player IF they are availbale. almost every trial can be classified as a "private league" since they have the maximum number of players allowed when the click Join the Q. | Despite the fact that people want to insist that they should have the right, like in Task Forces and Strike Forces, to control their group they can't because Trials are not TFs or SFs. The queue system is to provide an opportunity for players to come together. By locking leagues or trying to make private leagues, players are denying others the opportunity to come together like the developers have stated |
Believe it or not there are still SGs out there that like to get together and team. If an SG wants to hold a private league with just its members and perhaps members from their coalitions .. I don't recall a thing in the TOS that says they can't. Especially since they have probably been doing it with TFS and other trials for years.
Right now, thanks to lag, a lot of trials are going smaller to avoid the constant crashes and long waits for a power to actually FIRE. They don't want or need 4-5 extra people showing up inside. If they wanted a team that size they'd have recruited one to begin with. I've never seen it happen on a team I was on YET but if the league leader booted a couple of players that ended up in mission after we zoned. I'd have no problem with it.
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
Oh I REALLY have to start reading more before posting.....
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Okay Bill tore this apart already but allow me to add my perspective. The Hive is a ZONE. even if there isn't a raid taking place I can enter and collect badges or just fly around exploring. The RWZ is a ZONE. Mothership RAIDS take place in it but it also has numerous contacts offering door missions and one giving out a task force. NO you can't kick a player out of those because they don't need to join a TEAM to get in. | The trials are raid zones with player minimums and maximums. If a raid falls below the minimal amount, other players can enter no matter what the league leader wishes. |
Now Snow tell me exactly how many times you have gotten inside the BAF or Lambda Trial without joining a team attached to a league? Did you fly around and check out the place. Maybe head over and visit Siege in his office?
No because the ONLY way anyone can get into that MISSION that TRIAL is by joining a team. Which by the way is the same with the Terra Volta Trials, Eden Trials, Treespecs, the COP, etc. no one just waltzes inside and looks around. Heck to see the inside of a COP you not only need to join a team the SG sponsoring it needs the raid teleporter and the mission computer. Yeah go tell those guys after they spent the time and prestige to set up their base they don't have a say in who they invite.
You can't compare an unwanted player showing up in Eden for a Hami raid to players being assigned to an established league without the league leader having a say. As mentioned here repeatedly, and ignored completely by you, all any leader needs to do to avoid this is FILL a team to maximum before entering Q or kicking unwanted and uninvited players from the team once inside. So why not just avoid the hurt feelings and allow a lock that bars outsiders from joining once the league is set? It allows those leaders trying to avoid lag by staying at a set size to accomplish that with less grief and it protects those in the Q from being kicked because they weren't invited. I fail to see a down side here.
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
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The moment your group entered the turnstile it ceased to be "your" team. The trials don't start with a contact, so you have to use the turnstile. By entering the turnstile you are agreeing with the terms of the turnstile, just like going to a contact. It is just that the turnstile has a term that you may not like.|
Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
Having some method for locking the league would have eliminated all the problems. Forcing an unwanted extra player on the league was beneficial to nobody. And Snow Globe, nobody has any "right" to be on anyone's team. Team and league leaders have the power to kick for a reason and the trials are the only instance in the entire game where someone can force their way onto a team. This isn't a raid that happens in an open public zone, it's just another instanced mission that can accommodate more than a single team.
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Something you may have failed to realize is that if the league drops below the minimum players can enter the trial even in progress.
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Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
All that said I have no problem with the turnstile as long as it's an OPTION. Heck, allow it to work for normal teams if the team decides to flag themselves for it. Likewise allow teams and leagues to flag themselves as closed to the turnstile.
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Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
Hundreds of Trials are forming a day on Virtue and the vast majority are built before the team goes near the LFG. If that's not accomplishing exactly what you say they can't or don't have the right to do then what is?
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Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
Believe it or not there are still SGs out there that like to get together and team. If an SG wants to hold a private league with just its members and perhaps members from their coalitions... I don't recall a thing in the TOS that says they can't. Especially since they have probably been doing it with TFS and other trials for years.
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Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
Right now, thanks to lag, a lot of trials are going smaller to avoid the constant crashes and long waits for a power to actually FIRE. They don't want or need 4-5 extra people showing up inside. If they wanted a team that size they'd have recruited one to begin with. I've never seen it happen on a team I was on YET but if the league leader booted a couple of players that ended up in mission after we zoned. I'd have no problem with it.
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Everyone explicitly accepts the queue system by clicking on the accept button. Everyone. Someone isn't clicking on the accept button for them without their knowledge. By accepting that they are entering the queue/turnstile, they are accepting that players beyond their group will be able to join if the group isn't at the max amount for the trial.
If players entered the trial without joining the queue and accepting the queue's conditions then they would have grounds for saying "this is private".
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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And Arcanaville tore Bill's argument about this apart without effort. I can point you to the post if you like.|
Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
Okay Bill tore this apart already but allow me to add my perspective. The Hive is a ZONE. even if there isn't a raid taking place I can enter and collect badges or just fly around exploring. The RWZ is a ZONE. Mothership RAIDS take place in it but it also has numerous contacts offering door missions and one giving out a task force. NO you can't kick a player out of those because they don't need to join a TEAM to get in.
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[Edit]
Here is the link. Read it for yourself.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?p=3623482
[/Edit]
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Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
Now Snow tell me exactly how many times you have gotten inside the BAF or Lambda Trial without joining a team attached to a league?
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Now tell me how many times you've entered the Trials by not accepting the queue. I'm pretty sure that you can't.
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Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
No because the ONLY way anyone can get into that MISSION that TRIAL is by joining a team.
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Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
You can't compare an unwanted player showing up in Eden for a Hami raid to players being assigned to an established league without the league leader having a say.
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Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
As mentioned here repeatedly, and ignored completely by you, all any leader needs to do to avoid this is FILL a team to maximum before entering Q
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Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
or kicking unwanted and uninvited players from the team once inside.
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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Our SG would like to run these trials as SG events. Several members of our SG are prone to seizures resulting from certain types of visual stimuli. EVERY one of our SG members has a costume slot dedicated to minimizing this risk - i16 was a godsend for this reason, if no other. Getting some random add from LFG who has almost certainly NOT taken this consideration into account... Must. Be. Kicked.|
Originally Posted by tanstaafl
You are still not forced to kick people.
You are choosing, that is "WANT" to kick people for whatever reason that you think is justifed. You are not forced too. |
They'll get an apology. They'll get the option to leave on their own. But please do NOT unilaterally make the assumption that there are NO circumstances under which an un-planned LFGer MUST be kicked.
And quite frankly, I'd rather THEY not have to waste their time joining us in the first place, and wind up BACK in the queue, thanks to circumstances beyond ANYone's control.
Where to find me after the end:
The Secret World - Arcadia - Shinzo
Rift - Faeblight - Bloodspeaker
LotRO - Gladden - Aranelion
STO - Holodeck - @Captain_Thiraas
Obviously, I don't care about NCSoft's forum rules, now.
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No. A thousand times, no.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
The moment your group entered the turnstile it ceased to be "your" team.
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Feel free to argue that "it ceased to be your league", but for as long as I'm team leader, it *IS* my team.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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And those terms, like those of every other team in the game, include being able to be kicked by the leader. For whatever reason they have. The ability to lock a league would save a whole lot of unnecessary aggravation all around. And if it turns out that every single league is getting locked (which is unlikely), why then there will be plenty of people in the LFG queue won't there?
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Which the player doing the kicking is entirely in the wrong. They agreed to the terms of the trial as soon as they clicked on the "Enter Queue" button. The rest of the players agreed to the terms when they accepted the dialog box.
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However, it turned out that Smith was not a time-travelling Terminator
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What?!? Form their own league? Are you nuts? What kind of crackpot talk is that? Players have better things to do with their time than stand around getting people together to do a raid. |
Originally Posted by Kiken
And those terms, like those of every other team in the game, include being able to be kicked by the leader. For whatever reason they have. The ability to lock a league would save a whole lot of unnecessary aggravation all around. And if it turns out that every single league is getting locked (which is unlikely), why then there will be plenty of people in the LFG queue won't there?
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/sarcsam_off
This thread takes it to a whole new level of surreal. I am cosistently amazed at the level of vitriol people can work up over a QoL issue like team locking.
I believe the option to lock trial teams would be nice.
I believe that not having that option does very little harm.
Having run and run on many small leagues, I have yet to see any sort of destructive team usurping going on, EXCEPT for direct invites who sabotage end stages to create more adds to get thread/iXP.
Even in the groups where we all know each other, it's usually the usual suspects, not the randoms, that cause problems.
And considering the lag issue has been addressed, and it is now tolerable, bigger teams aren't the issue.
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Originally Posted by DanZero
This thread takes it to a whole new level of surreal. I am cosistently amazed at the level of vitriol people can work up over a QoL issue like team locking.
I believe the option to lock trial teams would be nice. I believe that not having that option does very little harm. Having run and run on many small leagues, I have yet to see any sort of destructive team usurping going on, EXCEPT for direct invites who sabotage end stages to create more adds to get thread/iXP. Even in the groups where we all know each other, it's usually the usual suspects, not the randoms, that cause problems. And considering the lag issue has been addressed, and it is now tolerable, bigger teams aren't the issue. |
Well put my good sir.
"I have ridden the mighty moon worm!"
-Al Gore
Fiery Aura is only good for farming, I'm cereal
@Caucasiafro
I'm laughing at the idea of someone getting banned or suspended for kicking people from trials.
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Doesn't look "torn apart" to me. |
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
And Arcanaville tore Bill's argument about this apart without effort. I can point you to the post if you like.
[Edit] Here is the link. Read it for yourself. http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?p=3623482 [/Edit] |
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| On live, twice so far. On test, about a dozen times. All I had to do is click on LFG and enter the queue system. I did not have to join a team to do so and I didn't have to join a league to do so. All I had to do was accept the terms the LFG system imposed. |
Go ahead. Try to enter the BAF without ever having to have anyone else doing so. Can you walk into the BAF like you can Faultline?
No?
Imagine that. Looks like you can't enter the trial solo. You MUST be attached, either beforehand or via the LFG tool, to a league - and can be kicked at the league leader's discretion.
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And people who want to team with specific people for whatever reasons shouldn't be forced to take on more people. The pendulum swings both ways there.|
Originally Posted by Daemodand
I hope such a feature is never implemented as it is bad for the game's overall health. People who want to team should never be prevented from doing so.
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And kicking people from your team just because they joined the LGF Queue and ended up on your team? Are you really that mean and elitist? I thought better of you than that, but I guess I was wrong.
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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This. I think the person who thinks this would actually happen is high. . .|
Originally Posted by Emberly
I'm laughing at the idea of someone getting banned or suspended for kicking people from trials.
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I also think the GM who gets such a petition request would also be Laughing their *** off reading it.
It's as silly as someone petitioning someone for killing you in a pvp zone.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Don't you know that we've all been doing it wrong for 7 years. Teaming with your friends only, makes you horrible bad, bad person. In fact the global and server freinds list should be nuked from orbit as they allow you to grief people by not automatically accpeting blind invites.|
Originally Posted by ArcticFahx
And people who want to team with specific people for whatever reasons shouldn't be forced to take on more people. The pendulum swings both ways there.
Bill already addressed this, but how in the heck is it automatically elitism to want to team with specific people? Elitism implies this is due to a feeling of being better, when it's more often a case of "hey, I'm doing this with friends and only friends." |
Was that sarcasm a bit much?
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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The only thing you agree to is entering the trial. The only "terms" anyone is subject to are those of the EULA. And as far as I know, those don't have anything about not kicking people from a league if you prefer to keep it a certain size. Pressing "Enter" when entering a trial doesn't have anything in there that you HAVE TO ACCEPT ADD-ONS AND NOT KICK THEM. Please point it out with a screen cap if I've missed that. |
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
The moment your group entered the turnstile it ceased to be "your" team. The trials don't start with a contact, so you have to use the turnstile. By entering the turnstile you are agreeing with the terms of the turnstile, just like going to a contact. It is just that the turnstile has a term that you may not like.
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Now, if it's your preference that people should have their time wasted in the queue by entering a team that could potentially kick them, then fine. But avoiding that situation sounds more beneficial to everyone, IMO.
For the sake of keeping a conversation in one place though, I suggest people start posting their responses in THIS THREAD. Just make sure you quote who you're responding to in order to avoid confusion.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
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Actually I think our GM's will first pull up the chatlogs to see if the team leader acted in a petitionable manner.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
This. I think the person who thinks this would actually happen is high. . .
I also think the GM who gets such a petition request would also be Laughing their *** off reading it. It's as silly as someone petitioning someone for killing you in a pvp zone. |
For example
Player A: Hey! Why did you kick me from the league?
Team Leader: I'm sorry but this particular league is a scheduled SG event for members only. I'm sorry for the inconvenience.
GM then proceeds to close the petition with no action being taken.
I was on one BAF a couple days ago where the "league leader" kicked two full teams worth of people because he just wanted to play with his friends.
That was after waiting around the LFG turned on for 20 minutes and then zoning and then waiting through that endless BAF cutscene. Then watching name after name get kicked until finally, poof.
Let me tell you, that was so much fun. Slogging through the system to get kicked for no reason. Makes me love this community, it does.