If the Devs added a feature to TF contacts that an individual approaching the contact was informed, "Hey Sorry, you need a minimum of 4 players to deal with the tasks I have, come back when you have that many... or wait, I have a group of 6 heroes out there now who may need a hand, would you like to join them?"
Would people's view points on when it is and isn't acceptable to kick an unwanted addition to the team change?
The beauty of an MMO is that it can be played in many different ways, RP, PvE only, PVP only, PvE/PvP only, solo/ grouped etc etc.
Unfortunately some of those different playstyles run at cross purposes to one another, would I play with a RPer that had to stop for thair character to do a 5 minute complicated series of emotes after every group fight... no, would I deny them the ability to do that if they wanted, no.
But if I found myself on the same team as that, something has to give.
Infact the prime example I can think of here is Badgehunting/temphunting in PvP zones. very few people now approach these forums in a state of rage after just having their pixelated butt handed to them in Bloody Bay while all they wanted is shivans... most people accept its a risk of entering that zone, you're desires run at a tangent to another players, and (arguably) neither is wrong.
People can make full leagues worth of teams to begin, or they can use the Q, However if a team for whatever reason wants to run in a special way, and someone joins who prevents that, then theres a choice to be made, change how you wanna do it, or change the situation.
Would it be begrudged of the team that entered at a minimum if they all quit and restarted, potentially facing the same issue, surely it inconveniences the least amount of people to kick the adds. The result is the same in terms of how the team eventually gets to run the trial there way if they all quit and start again, but the inconveniance of what is probably a design flaw falls to say 9 or 13 people, instead of 1.
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Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
[*]Watching out for the Spinning Disco Portal of D00M!*
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At this point I'm just wondering if some people on these forums hate other peoples' freedoms or something. Or are so firmly pro-developer that anything the developers shovel into the game is considered gold, even if it's crap.
People want choices. Burger King's marketing slogan isn't "take what we give you and if you don't like it, go to McDonald's," it's "have it your way" - for a reason. They want your business! Trying to take away choices is bad business, for any business. It's worse when those are choices that people fundamentally expect to have, such as the choice of who they team with in an MMORPG.
Whatever socially stunted psychoses are driving people to try and claim that we should be giving up expected, fundamental choices and rights for the LFG tool still don't change the fact that its current design is simply bad business and can only hurt Paragon Studios' bottom line and word of mouth in the marketplace - and that second part is, from all I can tell, a huge factor in determining which MMOs get whose money.
Edit - combined with the absolute disaster of a trial rewards system, this is a good way to lose lots of people to other popular MMORPGs with strong endgame raiding content, sane and transparent rewards paradigms, and oh yeah, the ability to control who you group with all the time, every time.
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
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Ah, I see. When I saw your comments about having valid reasons to choose to kick someone from a team they reminded me of the other persons post in the suggestions section on the same topic and the similarities made me smile. I thought you'd see and appreciate that it was a good real world example of what you were saying about someone having a valid reason to choose to ask someone to leave an event, and the emote was supposed to indicate there was no hostility being directed towards you, if anything some playfulness.|
Originally Posted by tanstaafl
I meant what was your point in posting my quote and the other quote.
You seemed to be implying something I had not written about. What cheeky/playful demeanorish point did you mean? |
Another example would be a group of friends sit down at a large table in a diner and theres an extra seat. Now if some stranger showed up and sat down at the table with them no one would think they were being rude if they told him to leave. And if the stranger tried to argue that the owners of the diner put the chair there for anyone to use so they have no right to ask him to leave their table, he would be the one labeled the obnoxious jerkwad.
Honestly, I don't have a strong opinion on this either way, as I see both perspectives.
However, Forbin, with your analogy, I will say that if the LFG tool were the diner, the sign outside the door would read that customers would be invited by the management to come in and fill all available seats.
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The problem with that is that they don't fill all available seats. Once the number of people outside reaches a certain point the invite people inside prioritizing large groups over individuals. Then once everyone is seated they lock the door and go and open a new diner even if the existing diner is not full. So someone who comes along after they've started seating has to wait until there are enough people to open a new diner.|
Originally Posted by ElectricaBanana
However, Forbin, with your analogy, I will say that if the LFG tool were the diner, the sign outside the door would read that customers would be invited by the management to come in and fill all available seats.
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And that is why I don't like analogies.
So...I should invest in diner real estate, then?
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You must be new here.
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Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
At this point I'm just wondering if some people on these forums hate other peoples' freedoms or something. Or are so firmly pro-developer that anything the developers shovel into the game is considered gold, even if it's crap.
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Heck no, the diner owners serve one group and move on, that's not a sensible business model for them so how would they pay rent?
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Originally Posted by ElectricaBanana
So...I should invest in diner real estate, then?
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
This isn't comparing viewpoints. This is trying to show you just how negatively you seem to be painting everyone else in game. I really don't know if you're aware of it. Heck, grabbing those quotes, it actually surprised ME to find that many.
I thought you might need to have that - aggressive though this sounds - put in front of your face so you could *see* it, especially with you making that comment. You *are* biased, badly. Yes, you could say the same thing about me, I suppose, but it looks like what you've gone through in game has badly colored your perception of the rest of the playerbase. I don't know the whole story about your channel and you getting personal attacks. Hell, you'd probably expect *me,* given my being as headstrong, stubborn and generally grumpy as I tend to be, to be the target of similar things - but I'm not. My global's not obvious, but it's also not hard to find, and given I'm welcomed by (fourm) name on Freedom (RO groups, usually, but often mixed or nearly pure PUG) of all places - a server I tend to cut on more often than not - I have yet to experience any sort of attack. The times I'm on one of my namesakes and someone says something, it's usually nothing more than "hi" or "Oh, the forum guy?" I could see it, and losing a channel you created, really coloring your view, though. And honestly, it's something I'm sorry to hear. You and I don't see eye to eye, and I don't believe we've ever generally gotten along, but it's not the sort of experience I want to hear of anyone having. As far as locking, people not wanting to team and such.... There are a *very* few who sound like they don't want to team with others at times - period. I can think of... oh, two. And one of them I *know* hops on teams anyway, just catching snatches of his conversations in one of the global channels on Pinnacle. The majority of those arguing against you (and Hyperstrike, and Arcanaville... I guess you three are the major ones arguing for status quo here) aren't saying they don't want to team with others. Including me. Some haven't stated a preference at all, honestly. But the majority? An option to lock for the times they want a certain playstyle, that's all. That is not an argument for permanently locking them, or refusing to team with others, or "elitism" or whatever else it may be painted as. I'm arguing for it, and I've just been running on several trials over on Guardian - no kicking, no desire to, and probably 75% of the people there have no idea which character was mine, or for that matter who I am. All that's being asked for is the ability. And yes, I *do* believe the playerbase in general will use it responsibly. (Edit: And I do think you're reading Wendy wrong - but I also get the feeling you're both grating on each other at this point, and backing off is probably the wisest course of action.) |
Bill
First of all thank you for sort of defending me Not that I cant do that myself. Your right Snow and I have a tendancy to constanty get on one another's nerves. I think its mainly because he always comes off with an attitude that no one else could possible be right and his view on anything should be accepted as COH law without question. LOL I have seen the man actually tear apart, line by line which is his style, posts from other players, myself included, that were BASICALLY agreeing with him.. but one tiny element of our post didn't mirror his total viewpoint. I am not even going to bother arguing this issue with the man anymore.. He still can't even accept the fact that he didn't get onto a BAF trial map solo.. using the technicality that he entered the q solo and was on a one man team when he arrived.... the other 11 players (minimum) on other teams had NOTHING to do with it! LOL
Now I do find it amusing that he actually had to leave a global channel in game because he was being personally attacked. Hmm considering the way he treats anyone here that had the audicty to disagree with his opinion I wonder why that came about?
I do agree he has a very dim view of players in general. While I understand the reason why, at the moment, some leaders want to limit the size of theri teams do to lag, ect I personally have never kicked anyone off a team I led. And I am a PUG queen which is how I met most of the people on my friend's list. Do players get kicked off teams from time to time? Sure they do. And for a variety of reasons spanning everything from Went AFK without saying a word and now is holding up the TF becasue he/she is still standing at the entrance of the mission we just completed. To being a complete drone that is insulting other team members and ruining everyone else's time. But I have never seen a team leader just blantantly kick people for no reason at all.
I don't see the point of opposing league locks. I'm sure some people will abuse it but name me one thing in this game that someone hasn't abused or tried to anyway. AE.. gave us the 1-50 in one day babies that couldn't find PI on a map without help. Wentworths and the Black market.. we all know there are players out there buying up certain salvage and recipes at low rates and then trickling them back so they can jack the prices up to unreasonable levels. Even the old PI farmers took a simple click the glowie to complete mission and turned it into a way to farm for XP, INF, Drops and .. even charge players for the right to join them in semi cheating the system. using Snow's logic all of us would be sitting in the AE building in Atlas creating new stories to work around the limits in place and earn 5-10 level an hour, then rushing off to PI to farm and grab as much INF as possible so we can run to WW and buy up all the Luck Charms at 10,000 INF and then sell them back 1 or 2 at a time for 500,000. Funny thing is the majority of us are out running missions, including the new trials, and never do any of that.. But if they allow us to lock Leagues we will all be elitists that never team with anyone we don't know!
Gee I have 5 incarnates now with all 4 new powers open and at teir 3 or 4, a 6th with judgement and interface open and the only people I team with that I KNOW are the ones I have met running trials since they started. I enjoyed their leadership style and added them to my friend's list. IF they are on and running trials I will look for them.. If not I will team with anyone! If they'd just FIX the dang lag this would be a non issue to begin with. The first two weeks after the trials began i didn't have a single problem with lag on either trial and quickly had 4 characters at 50 (+3). Since then the patches they made to solve other issues have made even trying the BAF on a full team almost impossible for me (may be my computer but I still lag horribly and even crash during the escapee phase). I can usually get through a Lambda but sometimes even crash on that during the battle with Maurader. What has all that meant? Well the last character I got to teir 3s easily was doing the runs where Seige and Nightstar are pulled to the helipad and all teams can battle the AVs and the ADDS. That Mastermind had 5 rare drops and 3 very rares. The best I have gotten recently thanks to missing battles while I relog or lagging so bad my powers dont fire off is some uncommons. Now I have tons of INF and lots of time so I don't worry about it I will BUY what I need to get by but I am not the only player with this issue. Team leaders are throwing together smaller BAFs and smaller Lambdas so the team actually has a chance to get through the trial without lag and potentially get better rewards. Fix the lag and we all go back to being quite happy with 24 player or 16 player trials. If they can't fix it then at least give us a way to limit size to compensate for it (like a lock). Until then on the rare occasions that a team winds up with an ADD or two from the queue .. there is a good chance that league leader will kick those players.
Anyway have fun fighting with Snow. You'll never change his mind but it can be fun watching him spend hours cutting and pasting to throw together those posts where he answers ever little bit of your post to TRY and show you how wrong you are. He's supposedly a computer tech so I imagine he can do it fast but i sometimes wonder when he actually finds time to play the game. he's always in here posting twenty times to try and convince everyone how RIGHT he is. LOL
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
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While I didn't create it, I have tried to keep it to its purpose. |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
I could see it, and losing a channel you created, really coloring your view, though. And honestly, it's something I'm sorry to hear. You and I don't see eye to eye, and I don't believe we've ever generally gotten along, but it's not the sort of experience I want to hear of anyone having.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
You *are* biased, badly. Yes, you could say the same thing about me, I suppose, but it looks like what you've gone through in game has badly colored your perception of the rest of the playerbase.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
The majority of those arguing against you (and Hyperstrike, and Arcanaville... I guess you three are the major ones arguing for status quo here) aren't saying they don't want to team with others. Including me. Some haven't stated a preference at all, honestly. But the majority? An option to lock for the times they want a certain playstyle, that's all. That is not an argument for permanently locking them, or refusing to team with others, or "elitism" or whatever else it may be painted as. I'm arguing for it, and I've just been running on several trials over on Guardian - no kicking, no desire to, and probably 75% of the people there have no idea which character was mine, or for that matter who I am.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
All that's being asked for is the ability.
And yes, I *do* believe the playerbase in general will use it responsibly. |
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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Because I had the audacity to actually moderate a moderated channel.|
Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
Now I do find it amusing that he actually had to leave a global channel in game because he was being personally attacked. Hmm considering the way he treats anyone here that had the audicty to disagree with his opinion I wonder why that came about?
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As to the rest, seeing that you can't seem to prevent yourself from making attacks, welcome to my ignore list.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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Irony is like a spice, too much will ruin the dish.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Because I had the audacity to actually moderate a moderated channel.
As to the rest, seeing that you can't seem to prevent yourself from making attacks, welcome to my ignore list. |
PenanceжTriage
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Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
At this point I'm just wondering if some people on these forums hate other peoples' freedoms or something. Or are so firmly pro-developer that anything the developers shovel into the game is considered gold, even if it's crap.
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This. With the caveat, that many enjoy seeing their fellow players upset. A fair amount of the rest are just mutual admiration societies.
There are s few things I think a lot of people are either missing or downplaying.
First - just because premades can and might lock themselves, even assuming most or all premades do so, there will be numerous individuals in the LFG system by themselves or in smaller teams that don't meet the minimum trial requirements. The system will then serve its purpose by grouping these people together for a trial. They won't be excluded from getting to do trials at all. To imply, or outright state, that they will is ludicrous. Might there be a wait? Yes, probably. Is that the end of the world? Is there some overriding reason that everyone must be placed into a trial asap even at the risk of their being kicked for being put on a league that doesn't want them?
Second - if negative player behavior in groups is a driving concern for opposition against locked leagues, isn't negative behavior by individuals more common? And wouldn't it make more sense to support being able to strictly control who you league with from the outset if you were worried about people behaving badly? After all if someone is out to 'grief' or damage your trial performance there are lots of ways they can do that without its necessarily being noticed, up to and including causing you to outright fail. If you're going to assume people are jerks by default, don't you also have to assume that the random LFGer who's put on a premade is going to be a jerk too? And even if you don't, why are you wanting to put an innocent LFGer onto a premade of people who you do assume are jerks? But really, why are people who want to lock their leagues assumed to be guilty in this argument, and the people who are queuing for randoms assumed to be innocent?
Third - What the devs intend is only being extrapolated from the system's design here, but even if it isn't, that doesn't mean their intentions are the right thing. In fact if their intention is setting it up so people can't control who they team with other than by using the kick button, it's an outright stupid intention because it runs contrary to customer expectations and hands a Quality of Life feature advantage right over to their competitors without even trying. The developers are neither an arbiter of morality nor are their implementations perfect and infallible.
At the end of the day, leagues are in their infancy. They have a lot of room for improvement in the richness and functionality of their management tools overall; a locking feature is just one of many things I think they need to stand toe to toe with their competitors's raid management systems in the MMORPG marketplace. But it's an important one, because 'not being grouped with other people at random against their will' is a fundamental expectation of MMORPG players set and reinforced by nearly 20 years of precedent in the marketplace.
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
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There is one simple solution for folks that want to have a league/trial team available to them all the time: form their own. It's not my job as someone forming one to make sure I'm open to inviting every single person that can be invited to be invited. That might be how the devs envisioned this working, but then I question if they've been paying attention for the last seven years.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
While I didn't create it, I have tried to keep it to its purpose.
On the whole, I would like to think most people are decent. However there are enough bad apples to see the same attitude, mostly to a lesser degree (there have been a couple posters that brought the exact same unpleasantness in these discussions), in the posters that are asking for a league lock. The really annoying thing about this, even if I didn't have my opinions lowered by some people, the point stands about most people locking leagues. People I've been doing trials with, some that I know that love to PUG and are completely welcoming to other players, are already trying to lock leagues (mistakenly using the team locks) with every run. These people aren't trying to run SG-only events, yet they are still trying to lock the league. That alone tells me that a league lock will not be used sparingly. I truly wish I could believe that, but given ample evidence of people willing to PUG trying to lock leagues, I can't. |
In every aspect of the game when someone comes to the forums and complains that they can't find a team, it's acceptable to tell them to form their own. Why is it unacceptable now?
I see nothing wrong with folks who want to form private leagues for whatever reason, when ANYONE can form their own leagues. And actually with how idiotic the LFG tool is (magically passing the star to anyone, away from the original league leader is just ONE of the things I can list that make that tool the 2nd most useless introduction to this game in years) it's probably better to form you own leagues instead of waiting for one to form (wait time less than 5 minutes my A$$) with that useless tool.
I couldn't honestly care less what the dev's intent is. There's is just to build proper tools and content and let us have at it, as long as we are not exploiting.
It's NOT their job to tell us who to team with. Period.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Said better than I ever could have. A lot of things related to Issue 20 are pushing my patience with the game now (including the LFG tool, multiple currencies [this one doesn't annoy me as much], and the issues with the participation metric/reward system). The devs (or anyone) trying to tell us that we MUST team with anyone at anytime, unlike what has been going on for the last seven years, would be the last straw. I LOVE the trials it's all the other nonsense surrounding them that's really trying my patience.|
Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
At the end of the day, leagues are in their infancy. They have a lot of room for improvement in the richness and functionality of their management tools overall; a locking feature is just one of many things I think they need to stand toe to toe with their competitors's raid management systems in the MMORPG marketplace. But it's an important one, because 'not being grouped with other people at random against their will' is a fundamental expectation of MMORPG players set and reinforced by nearly 20 years of precedent in the marketplace. |
Luckily I don't think that's what the devs intend, contrary to what lord Snow Globe claims. (He doesn't have a red name so I think anything he's interpreting is irrelevant.)
It's ALWAYS been a personal pet peeve of mine when other players try to tell other players how to play.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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At the end of the day, a locking feature will break the developer promise of not needing to be in the "right" group to participate in the trials/raids.|
Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
At the end of the day, leagues are in their infancy. They have a lot of room for improvement in the richness and functionality of their management tools overall; a locking feature is just one of many things I think they need to stand toe to toe with their competitors's raid management systems in the MMORPG marketplace. But it's an important one, because 'not being grouped with other people at random against their will' is a fundamental expectation of MMORPG players set and reinforced by nearly 20 years of precedent in the marketplace.
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I'd suggest that you read this article about MMO raids:
http://tobolds.blogspot.com/2010/05/...g-raiding.html
It is focused on the market leading MMO, but the points the article makes are relevant here. People complain about needing a guild/group/whatever to raid in other MMOs, the way the LFG system works in this game eliminates that need.
By crippling the Looking For Group system by allowing groups to disable the system's ability to add players from the queue to the trial is to doom this game's raid system to other game's past mistakes.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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The only way you won't need to be in the "right" group to succeed at a raid is if the raid is trivially easy and needs no player skill or play coordination.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
At the end of the day, a locking feature will break the developer promise of not needing to be in the "right" group to participate in the trials/raids.
I'd suggest that you read this article about MMO raids: http://tobolds.blogspot.com/2010/05/...g-raiding.html It is focused on the market leading MMO, but the points the article makes are relevant here. People complain about needing a guild/group/whatever to raid in other MMOs, the way the LFG system works in this game eliminates that need. By crippling the Looking For Group system by allowing groups to disable the system's ability to add players from the queue to the trial is to doom this game's raid system to other game's past mistakes. |
The trials already fail that metric.
They don't fail the metric of needing particular class compositions, which is what's complained about in the "market-leading MMO" - people want to be able to bring the player, not the class. They don't want to be grouped with anybody at random and then still expect to succeed anyway, and anyone who has that expectation is being childish.
A league lock feature wouldn't cripple the LFG tool and to claim it would exhibits a ridiculous disconnect from both reality and common sense. It is mock worthy. I mock you for it. Mock!
Edit: I also think it's ridiculous, ludicrous, and mock-worthy that you link some-random-body's blog as an article on MMO's that's somehow meant to be authoritative or definitive.
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
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Sorry but seeing as how most of the leagues form pre-made via b-cast in invite in RWZ and Pocket D means the intended purpose of the LFG system has failed. Period.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
At the end of the day, a locking feature will break the developer promise of not needing to be in the "right" group to participate in the trials/raids.
I'd suggest that you read this article about MMO raids: http://tobolds.blogspot.com/2010/05/...g-raiding.html It is focused on the market leading MMO, but the points the article makes are relevant here. People complain about needing a guild/group/whatever to raid in other MMOs, the way the LFG system works in this game eliminates that need. By crippling the Looking For Group system by allowing groups to disable the system's ability to add players from the queue to the trial is to doom this game's raid system to other game's past mistakes. |
People STILL spend time forming them before clicking into the queue so IMO the LFG system is already crippled.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Other MMOs also have levels of gear - and the raid for gear to raid for gear to raid for gear cycle. Other MMOs also have the "holy trinity" needed as part of a team. |
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
It is focused on the market leading MMO, but the points the article makes are relevant here. People complain about needing a guild/group/whatever to raid in other MMOs, the way the LFG system works in this game eliminates that need.
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We don't.
What that other MMO system may need to eliminate "I'm sorry, you're a Nightwatchman, we need a Cleric!" we don't need here.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Because I had the audacity to actually moderate a moderated channel.
As to the rest, seeing that you can't seem to prevent yourself from making attacks, welcome to my ignore list. |
................ No you know what I don't care. Doesn't stop me from disagreeing with any post you make here that I disagree with and allows me to completely ignore agreeing with any you make that I actual agree with.
No instead of responding let's give one more GOOD example of why league locks can be beneficial.
Earlier today I logged on with my Rad/Rad defender and joined a BAF advertsied to be 2 team (16 members only). My computer can handle 16 so I joined and in we went. We got inside and picked up 2 ADDS. You'll be happy to hear the leader didn't bother to kick them. We got to the escapee portion of the trial and naturally I dc'd from the lag. When I returned I didn't go back on to the 8 man team I had crashed off of.. I ended up on the 2 man ADD team (now a three man team). The escapee portion ened and we moved to battling Siege. The league leader was busy and never did stick me back where I was so NOW instead of being on the 8 man team getting IXP I needed to open my Lore slot I am on a 3 man team and trying my best to attack as many things as possible to maximize my possible XP. Finally a couple more people crashed and never returned and I don't know if the leader did it or the game just auto assigned us back to two 8 man teams but we eneded the trial that way. AMAZINGLY.... I somehow managed a Very Rare from that mess and went on to do a very good Lambda afterwards with the same 16 players..
But I got practically no IXP thanks to that and I got tired of waiting so I used threads to BUY XP and open my Lore slot. Those two extra players were anything BUT non-entities to ME. They increased the size of every spawn which added to the lag that crashed me to begin with. Then because they were there instead of returning to the team I left I found myself on a mini team and fighting desperately to get IXP while the 7 and 8 man team had more than double the players helping earn it. Now not once during all this did I SCREAM kick those two they are hurting us or hurting ME! and as I mentioned while the league leader allowed them to stay.. he didn't waste valuable time rearranging teams so they had more help so until I crashed they were a two man team and just had to live with it... No one but the queue invited them so live with what you get!
THIS is the kind of crap players are putting up with that has prompted the call for being able to lock league. It's not some elitist notion that we are better than you and don't want you in our league. Its a necessity to allow the teams that form to actually enjoy what they are doing.
If it ever gets adopted will some players abuse it? Sure they will. Some players abused the AE which has all but ruined it for most people. Some players abuse the Market. Some players abuse any little thing they can find to cheat the system and gain some advantage that allows them to increase wealth, levels or whatever. Frankly I consider those players to be Jerks and fools... "I found a cheat that let me level from 1-50 in 4 hours in the AE without ever leaving Atlas Park!" Hurray for you! Considering how many recipes and salvage drops you get in AE missions and the restriction now in place on XP and INF earned.. how much cash do you have on hand ? and is your build completely IO'd? I level my 50s using mission contacts and TFs. By level 47 almost every one has a 50 level IO in every slot and my Badger now has 1.9 Billion in INF and has given away probably another half a billion. I enjoy my way better but as I have told many people MANY TIMES there are a thousand ways to play this game and as long as the way you pick doesn't violate the rules there is nothing wrong with any of them.
Fact is the vasy majority of players feel the same way that I do or have similar values. We aren't looking for a speed course to the top we are enjoying the ride. Why anyone thinks a League Lock will automatically result in thousands of little cliches that never team with anyone else and use the lock to ensure the so called riff raff can't join them is beyond me.
This is a very friendly and helpful community, with the usual few exceptions, and its one reason I have stuck with this game for going on 6 years.
Now back to my on line experience. Lets look at those two ADDs that wound up in OUR league. Two guys joined the Queue and may have stood around for 20-30 minutes waiting to get an invite to a trial. Times vary but just to see how long it MIGHT take I joined the Q solo ealier today as well. Twenty minutes later I still hadn't gotten an invite and when I saw the Leader setting up a small BAF I dropped out and sent a Tell asking to join. So lets say these two got lucky and only waited for 15 minutes. They enter a trial and find themeselves on a two man team through almost half the trial. I can only imagine how little an amount of IXP they got if they were still after it. I have left BAFs on an 8 man team that only gave me 10 -12 %. So lets be REALLY generous and say each one earned 9% during the trial IF they weren't among those that crashed later on and never made it back. Considering how few an amount of defeats they probably had anything to do with based on their team size I can't imagine what reward table they got and it could easily have been the dreaded 10 threads or an inspiration table. I know during the time I was teamed with them at least one of them always seemed to be dead and trying to get back from the hospital. I'll be generous again and say they both somehow managed an uncommon.
Now if they had just gone to globals and looked for a league or come to the RWZ and joined one .. they'd have been on 8 man teams that whole time and who knows how much more IXP and what level of reward drop they might have acheieved. They probably would have had half the wait time before being inside a trial and would have still been on a team when they emerged that may have turned right around and gone back inside. My question here is almost everyone is well aware that leagues are forming constantly in places like the RWZ, Pocket D, Cimerora, etc. Why waste you time with the LFG? Like I said I stood around in RWZ 1 for over 20 minutes without an invite. I couldn't go to my base, Couldn't access the tailor and create a new outfit. Couldn't run solo missions while i was waiting .. I had to stand around doing pretty much NOTHING waiting for the queue to find me a team. A little bit ago I logged back on after dinner and in 4 minutes I found a BAF and was inside defeating Warworks in another 5-6. So in half the time I wasted getting NO invite from the Queue i managed to find a league on my own and get inside and start earning threads etc.
The queue is flawed. It puts together the absolute minimum sized team required for each trial and doesn't care what ATs they are. Now a 12 man VEAT league would probably have a lot of fun in a BAF but a 12 man Blaster team could easily spend more time waiting for the door to the hospital to unlock than fighting anything. (please keep in mind I said COULD . that same team could blast things to bits and rock. I only used them because I play Blasters and know how much defense we have. NOT MUCH AT ALL LOL). Before it even left Beta players were already ignoring it and forming league before entering to make sure they had the weapons necessary to be successful. I have seen other threads here where players complained about spending 30 minutes or more waiting to join a trial And their biggest complaint.. they only had a couple hours a day to play and just wasted 25% of it trying to get one mission. Leagues are a definate advantage.. Being able to assmble three 8 man teams that can all communicate through league chat has made the COP much simplier. I know its being used on Rikti Mothership raids and even Hamidon raids for the same purpose and with the same results. That new feature is great but they need or NEEDED more time to work out bugs before springing a program that just throws whoever together on a team and says "Good Luck the bad guys are -----> THAT WAY!"
And now if you will excuse me I have an SG night starting up in a few minutes so i will be hitting send and heading back into the game.
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
At the end of the day, a locking feature will break the developer promise of not needing to be in the "right" group to participate in the trials/raids.
I'd suggest that you read this article about MMO raids: http://tobolds.blogspot.com/2010/05/...g-raiding.html It is focused on the market leading MMO, but the points the article makes are relevant here. People complain about needing a guild/group/whatever to raid in other MMOs, the way the LFG system works in this game eliminates that need. By crippling the Looking For Group system by allowing groups to disable the system's ability to add players from the queue to the trial is to doom this game's raid system to other game's past mistakes. |
First of all people in that, and several other, MMOs complain because the GUILDS you refer to are their version of our Super Groups and from what I know its very true that in THAT MMO if you don't join the right guilds you may as well forget about raiding. With very few exceptions here in this MMO the "Leagues" we are referring to are basically PUGs that form based on nothing more than players that are available and looking for that particular trial or just any trial at all. Comparing the two is nonsense. Once a trial is completed people leave and if those that remain want to go again they start recruiting using exactly the same format.. are you on line, a 50 level, and interested in participating in a trial? Hardly seems like a system that is discriminating against anyone except those too lazy to transport their characters to the places where teams are being formed or to bother joining any of the half dozen globals on Virtue, at least, that team leaders advertise when they need team mates.
And this
http://tobolds.blogspot.com/2010/05/perfect-mmorpg-raiding.html
is the sort of resources you use to come up with your ideas? From the comments I read below Tobold's BLOG even people that play that MMO don't necessarily agree with his writings and it also appears that the only MMO he plays is THAT one. So basically he knows as much about City of Heroes as a one day old player just arriving here in Altas or Galaxy. Now I am perfectly willing to admit that my knowledge of THAT MMO is limited to what I have heard from talking with a few SG mates that play it as well and one even runs one of those Guilds. So I would never assume to know all that is good or bad about it. I know its different. I know, as Bill mentioned, you don't even think about raiding unless you have all the right gear. I know it can get expensive since they don't have free upgrades like we do.. you want the ability to do X then pay us more money.
The LFG is flawed and broken PERIOD. As mentioned people don't want a system that just throws randem players together and if they get lucky they may have enough damage, control or whatever to be successful. I mentioned it before I will mention it again.. Even before I-20 left Beta players realized it wouldn't work and they started to form teams before joining the queue.
When it went live the LAST thing I wanted was to get shoved onto a team with absolutely no one that had no idea what was going on or what we needed to do. Fortunately I hooked up with some one that had run successful trials numerous times on Beta and she showed us all the ins and out of the Lambda and then the BAF. I played with other leaders and after a while knew several different strategies that were successful and knew exactly what to do and where to go. On Beta I joined the LFG once and was tossed onto a 12 man BAF league (two 6 man teams). No one had a clue what we were supposed to do and it even took us a little while to find the door to get inside. We managed to take out the WarWalkers and then repeated like got killed by the towers while we tried to figure out where Nightshade even was. By the time we did she'd been reinforced so many times we got slaughtered over and over until the timer ran out and TRIAL FAILED.
THAT is the sort of thing that is possible using the LFG. Forming a league where you can sit comfortably and move players from team to team to ensure all three have good damage and protection before entering the queue eliminates that problem. It doesn't necessarily promise success. I have been on leagues that failed and the usual reason? Players that didn't listen to what the leaders asked them to do. And to clarify I am not talking some bossy jerk that was barking out commands from the time we formed up until the time we failed. I am talking about an experienced leader that had been on trials and knew what needed to be done explaining what each team needed to do and then when we got inside.. numerous players that apparently thought they knew better just did whatever they felt like doing and then couldn't understand why we failed.
This could be as simple a detail as check your folders for grenades or acids we need to seal the portals or get over run. Even after we took out a couple weapon deliveries in the courtyard we still had reinforcements pouring in and sending us to the hospital faster than we could defeat them. In the BAF.. not staying close to your assigned door or not sticking to your assigned chock point. "Gee that's great you chased down that one lieutenant and managed to stop him just before he escaped.. while you were running half way acros the map 5 others escaped in the other direction! GREAT work!"
The LFG doesn't care about making sure each team has that experienced player to guide the new ones. The LFG doesn't care if it puts 8 scrappers on a Lambda and they have no buffs, debuffs, or aggro control to assist them. All the LFG does is throws together the absolute minimum number of players needed to start a trial and drops them at the front door. I used it a few times the first week 20 was released and fortunately a few of us knew what to do by then. We also knew there was no way 8 of use could defeat Maurader but we took out everything on the street, everything in the courtyard, all of the tower guns and the Security Guard. Then we grabbed all the acids and grenades giving us three, sometimes even four Astrals and then.. .... We all quit and left the trial. Didn't get any end bonus but we did manage to get IXP and converted those Astral into threads. Heck on my first incarnate I opened Interface that way. But joining a league and going in and completing the entire trial was a LOT more fun and a lot less risky.
A Lock isn't going to defeat the intent of the LFG the design of it has already accomplished that. The few players using it need to get over being shy and just start LOOKING for leagues. I don't know what other servers are like but I know anyone is welcome on the leagues forming in the RWZ on Virtue. Before I came here I used to play on Infinity and knowing the people there I can't imagine the same thing isn't true there. I'd be curious to see the figures I am certain the Devs have as to exactly how many people are even using the LFG as opposed to the number of full leagues that join the queue. My guess, at least on Virtue, would be its a very small percentage. That team I was on earlier today was the first I have ever seen that picked up ADDs. And at this point I'd estimate I have run about 150 BAFS and probably around 100 Lambdas and that may even be low. Now most of those league, until the LAG started, were full going in but even the shorter ones I have been on recently.. 2 adds total and both on one trial. Doesn't seem like a lot of people are lining up to use it to me.
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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She isn't having a conversation with you. She is commenting on your statements for the benefit of the community as a whole. This happens all the time in real life. Someone makes a public statement and people who agree and disagree then discuss it. |
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Is Wendy still responding to me? If she is I don't know why she is bothering.
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Oh and I'll say it here as well, thanks for correcting me on the mistake I posted in the other thread.
Edit: If Wendy actually is on your ignore list why do you care what she says? Are you concerned she may be tearing apart the flaws in your argument for everyone to see and by ignoring her you are now powerless to refute her? Just curious.
I'm one of those that fought and argued against the dev team for a solid year and a half because of the old Sonic Dispersion graphics, JUST for this reason. They gave me headaches, and I'm not prone to migraines. They would force friends to have to log off for the night - and potentially the next day, staying in a nice dark room and trying to get past their head trying to explode.
The current graphics don't bother me - other than thinking some are ugly. But after that fight, what WERE the devs thinking by putting these in? OK, I argued back when BABs was around - is *nobody* around dealing with power effects from that time, too?
Do we have to go through this fight again? Did they learn nothing from the last time?
Where to find me after the end:
The Secret World - Arcadia - Shinzo
Rift - Faeblight - Bloodspeaker
LotRO - Gladden - Aranelion
STO - Holodeck - @Captain_Thiraas
Obviously, I don't care about NCSoft's forum rules, now.