And now, a little comic relief for the sucker-punched from Bob the Angry Flower.
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You obviously have an issue with this person. So why do you choose to comment on movies he has directed/you haven't seen. In most cases, people might deem you a troll. That is, you are only here to bad mouth Zack Snyder rather than discuss the topic at hand.
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Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
No, really, the problem with Zack Snyder's movies is Zack Snyder as a director/producer/writer.
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You mean "The Problem Isn't Zack Snyder. The Problem Is You."?|
Originally Posted by Clouded
You obviously have an issue with this person.
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I stopped by this thread well after it was underway and when it had expanded from the original topic into a discussion about his other films - which I have seen, did not enjoy, and would not recommend - as well as the issues of movie adaptations, genre reception, and the issue of influence, which are of great interest to me. Aside from Snyder's movies themselves, the other problem that I have with Snyder's lurching zombie-like career from mediocrity to mediocrity is that he's becoming shorthand for "geek auteur" as a way for the mainstream to dismiss the genres that we care about (even though they're only zombies, superheroes, and exploitation flicks). That he should have been given the directorial duties for the next Superman movie with such a track record and reputation is a bad omen for the comic book movie genre.
Incidentally, trolls, I'm given to understand, post only for teh lulz. Would that discussing Snyder's films gave me much enjoyment. Duty calls, however.
Whew. All that said, I've grown tired of this thread, too. I'm taking a break from it this weekend until the box office tally is in. Place your bets now as to Sucker Punch's drop-off.
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Look, I love the way Hitch writes and all, but if he is the basis for any argument you're seriously making, odds are, you're probably not making a great one*. I haven't seen the King's Speech, and I wasn't around in England in the 40's, not that Hitchens was either, so I am not speaking of the validity of those particular articles, but if you are going to base your arguments about movies strictly on what you've read - don't quote a gadfly as an authority somewhere else.|
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
(It is also whitewashing historical revisionism of at its most meretricious. But that's another thread.)
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* I know he is sick so I won't take any of the easy cheap shots here I normally would.
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Actually, I had started to wonder on that as well, on the part of "OMG these critics hate it, so I must too"|
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
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Seen it before, seen it in the opposite direction, seen movies were critics couldn't possibly NOT give a movie a bad review because then it would be faced with "You suck!" (simplified) type of retorts.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
I saw it. I liked it, though I was hoping for a bigger sucker punch at the end.
I missed the first 5 minutes came in at about the point where jon hamm was about to lobotomize babydoll but I surmised that there was misconduct of perhaps a sexual nature going on before the lobotomy can anyone shed somelight?
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Given the results at the end and the lines of the other orderlies, it is very likely that the head orderly was using the girls in the sanitarium as his own personal harem. Also given the nature of the escapist fantasy, i.e. Babydoll imagining that the workers of the institute as the...customers...of the dance hall, that it wasn't limited to just the head orderly (or whatever that guy was).
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Originally Posted by Cheetatron
I missed the first 5 minutes came in at about the point where jon hamm was about to lobotomize babydoll but I surmised that there was misconduct of perhaps a sexual nature going on before the lobotomy can anyone shed somelight?
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When one of the other orderly's tell Blue they're not going to hurt the girls anymore, I took it be they all had their way with them.
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Originally Posted by Dark One
Given the results at the end and the lines of the other orderlies, it is very likely that the head orderly was using the girls in the sanitarium as his own personal harem. Also given the nature of the escapist fantasy, i.e. Babydoll imagining that the workers of the institute as the...customers...of the dance hall, that it wasn't limited to just the head orderly (or whatever that guy was).
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BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
I thought the movie was really good. I'd give it an A-. I felt bad for the girls. They were trapped in a hellhole.
The end was a bit anti-climactic and I saw it coming right away, probably due to so many other movies recently using similar plot tricks.
I'm really glad that mental hospitals aren't run like that anymore (I really, really hope they aren't).
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That's called "jumping on the bandwagon." It's just human nature. In this case, though, I'm one of the guys who hammered the wheels onto the wagon.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Actually, I had started to wonder on that as well, on the part of "OMG these critics hate it, so I must too"
Seen it before, seen it in the opposite direction, seen movies were critics couldn't possibly NOT give a movie a bad review because then it would be faced with "You suck!" (simplified) type of retorts. |
If someone wants to enjoy Sucker Punch for its mindless spectacle, then that's fine. But that doesn't mean I have to keep quiet about disliking Snyder's other work. That article TG linked to is just mindless crap. No one is trying to put on airs and act all "exclusive" about their geekery and who gets into the club -- what's happening is that geeks are, by and large, smart people and they've seen through the emptiness of Snyder's talent to discover he's a one-trick pony. The writing is on the wall: if as shallow a site as Ain't It Cool News doesn't like you, then you must suck. Because they are the Jackass of film reviewer-dom. Those guys like every stupid thing that comes along as long as it looks cool and has geek cred, yet they don't like it. I believe it's because they've finally had enough of that sort of thing, too, and even Harry is starting to grow up.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
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Go visit a couple.|
Originally Posted by dbuter
I'm really glad that mental hospitals aren't run like that anymore (I really, really hope they aren't).
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There's a reason why "mainstreaming" and "halfway homes" are so popular.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
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Originally Posted by Ironik
That's called "jumping on the bandwagon." It's just human nature. In this case, though, I'm one of the guys who hammered the wheels onto the wagon.
If someone wants to enjoy Sucker Punch for its mindless spectacle, then that's fine. But that doesn't mean I have to keep quiet about disliking Snyder's other work. That article TG linked to is just mindless crap. No one is trying to put on airs and act all "exclusive" about their geekery and who gets into the club -- what's happening is that geeks are, by and large, smart people and they've seen through the emptiness of Snyder's talent to discover he's a one-trick pony. The writing is on the wall: if as shallow a site as Ain't It Cool News doesn't like you, then you must suck. Because they are the Jackass of film reviewer-dom. Those guys like every stupid thing that comes along as long as it looks cool and has geek cred, yet they don't like it. I believe it's because they've finally had enough of that sort of thing, too, and even Harry is starting to grow up. |
That's why I was glad I wasn't able to read a review before I went to see it. I got to walk out of there with my own opinion, unadulterated by what I'd read (not that I'm typically a bandwagoner). And I walked out with a big ole, meh. (And I actually have liked his previous work and really wanted to love this one too.)
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Originally Posted by Ironik
Go visit a couple.
There's a reason why "mainstreaming" and "halfway homes" are so popular. |
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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They just released the the first six minutes of Sucker Punch so you can see for yourself if you want.
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Originally Posted by Cheetatron
I missed the first 5 minutes came in at about the point where jon hamm was about to lobotomize babydoll but I surmised that there was misconduct of perhaps a sexual nature going on before the lobotomy can anyone shed somelight?
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I don't recall, but they aren't all sunshine and rainbows, that's for sure. Not that many of the group homes are much better. A lot of abuse goes on there. Fortunately my cousin -- who is severely retarded (or developmentally challenged as it were) -- was able to get into a wonderful group home that is run by people I consider living saints. It's amazing the care they lavish on their charges. They get paid by the state to take care of their charges, but that's not why they do it. It's a thankless, 24/7 job and they aren't paid nearly enough for what they do for these people. He's in his mid 60s now and his childhood was simply horrific. But even though he's blind and essentially incommunicado, they take him out for ice cream and to the park, both things he clearly loves doing. Somewhere in there he knows, and he knows that he is loved. That never would've happened 50 years ago in an institution.
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Originally Posted by MentalMaden
Wasn't it Geraldo Rivera in the early 70s that did a big nasty expose on state run mental institutions that pretty much blew the industry to pieces?
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The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
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Other than the action scenes, I didn't really like Sucker Punch. I thought it lacked in editing and better story telling in the between scenes, so I'm really not a fan of the movie. I don't mind when people state their opinion on Snyder's other work that they've seen. It just irks me when someone acts like an authority on a film that they've only seen the trailer of, and then in turn quote other people who's only seen the trailer of the same film. It only serves to undermine the positions of those with real opinions of a film...especially those that may appear to be in the same side on the matter. Its a vicious cycle of stupid that must be crushed...with prejudice! |
Originally Posted by Ironik
If someone wants to enjoy Sucker Punch for its mindless spectacle, then that's fine. But that doesn't mean I have to keep quiet about disliking Snyder's other work.
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While Hitchens is enough of an iconoclast and provocateur by nature to probably deserve the "gadfly" remark, I don't think you can just dismiss the points made in those articles by suggesting he's just being contrary.|
Originally Posted by tensionfade
Look, I love the way Hitch writes and all, but if he is the basis for any argument you're seriously making, odds are, you're probably not making a great one*. I haven't seen the King's Speech, and I wasn't around in England in the 40's, not that Hitchens was either, so I am not speaking of the validity of those particular articles, but if you are going to base your arguments about movies strictly on what you've read - don't quote a gadfly as an authority somewhere else.
* I know he is sick so I won't take any of the easy cheap shots here I normally would. |
I mean, if you don't think Christopher Hitchens isn't knowledgeable enough about the political history of the UK to be a reasonable source for the subject under discussion, you probably need to re-calibrate your credibility detector.
That said, it's pretty clear that the makers of the movie had to kind of gloss over the whole "supporting appeasement with the Nazis" thing the King had going, as that might have made the character "just a bit" less sympathetic to modern audiences.
The movie's producers can argue that the movie isn't about what Hitchens is mentioning. That the movie is really about a totally different set of personal challenges.
Critics of the movie, like Hitchens, can still argue that it paints a sympathetic picture of a person who made moral and political judgements that put them on the wrong side of history.
I'm a published amateur comic book author: www.ericjohnsoncomics.com
******MA Arcs****
Arc 5909: "Amazon-Avatars"
Arc 6143: "Escalation" (Nominee: Architect Awards, Nominee: Player Awards, and Dev's Choice!)
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Historical threadjack!|
Originally Posted by Ironik
I don't recall, but they aren't all sunshine and rainbows, that's for sure. Not that many of the group homes are much better. A lot of abuse goes on there. Fortunately my cousin -- who is severely retarded (or developmentally challenged as it were) -- was able to get into a wonderful group home that is run by people I consider living saints. It's amazing the care they lavish on their charges. They get paid by the state to take care of their charges, but that's not why they do it. It's a thankless, 24/7 job and they aren't paid nearly enough for what they do for these people. He's in his mid 60s now and his childhood was simply horrific. But even though he's blind and essentially incommunicado, they take him out for ice cream and to the park, both things he clearly loves doing. Somewhere in there he knows, and he knows that he is loved. That never would've happened 50 years ago in an institution.
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A little history of the Willowbrook State School per Wiki and it's significance in major changes to how institutions are run and Rivera's role in uncovering the problems. There was a time when he was a real hard nosed reporter and a champion for just causes, his later years have kind of centered on the sensational and scandalous but he deserves praise for whatever small place he had in reform of mental institutions.
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A series of articles in local newspapers, including the Staten Island Advance and the Staten Island Register, described the crowded, filthy living conditions at Willowbrook, and the negligent treatment of some of its residents. Shortly thereafter, in early 1972, Geraldo Rivera, then an investigative reporter for WABC-TV in New York, conducted a series of investigations at Willowbrook uncovering a host of deplorable conditions, including overcrowding, inadequate sanitary facilities, and physical and sexual abuse of residents by members of the school's staff. The exposé, entitled Willowbrook: The Last Disgrace, garnered national attention and won a Peabody Award for Rivera.[6] Rivera later appeared on the nationally televised Dick Cavett Show with film of patients at the school. As a result of the overcrowding, a class-action lawsuit was filed against the State of New York in federal court on March 17, 1972. A settlement in the case was reached on May 5, 1975, mandating reforms at the site, but several years would pass before all of the violations were corrected. The publicity generated by the case was a major contributing factor to the passage of a federal law, called the Civil Rights of Institutionalized Persons Act of 1980. |
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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Unfortunately bad things like that still happen. When I was a paralegal I worked on lawsuits stemming from both wrongful incarceration and rampant sexual abuse of patients.
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Originally Posted by dbuter
I'm really glad that mental hospitals aren't run like that anymore (I really, really hope they aren't).
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With this weekend's box office estimates released, Sucker Punch is projected to bring in only $6.1M, a disastrous 68% dropoff from its opening. That's the kind of record that puts it easily in the Top 100 Biggest Second Weekend Dropoffs*, among the likes of Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within, Eddie Murphy's Meet Dave, Basic Instinct 2, and, oh yes, Watchmen. Between bad reviews, bad box office, and bad word of mouth (its Friday dropoff on opening weekend was similarly steep), Sucker Punch has officially hit the trifecta of bad movies.
While I expect Sucker Punch to sink pretty quickly in domestic release, I'm still concerned at the potential damage it can do to the next Superman film, whether or not Snyder remains attached, and to mainstream opinion of geek-centric movie tropes.
* As calculated by Box Office Mojo, which is running a survey their site's front page titled "What's the main reason that the heavily-promoted 'Sucker Punch' disappointed?". Between the terrible critical consensus and awful word of mouth - apart from a vocal minority of well-serviced Snyder fans - the movie's flaws are obvious by this point, though the choice of which is the worst can be voted on, e.g. "Divorced from reality / Low dramatic stakes."; "fanboy fantasia"; "Looked like a random video game"; "No characterization"; "Style over substance."; and others. My favorite, though, is their last option: "Box office is a prison. In my mind, this is a hit."
The problem with Sucker Punch, Watchmen, and other similar movies are that they don't have mainstream appeal. The first week has people going just because it looks interesting, but they don't get it for some reason so tell their friends not to see it. It doesn't matter if it is the greatest movie in the world, but if most people don't get it, then they won't see it.
The first step in being sane is to admit that you are insane.
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At least the schadenfreude will keep you warm. |
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
While I expect Sucker Punch to sink pretty quickly in domestic release, I'm still concerned at the potential damage it can do to the next Superman film, whether or not Snyder remains attached, and to mainstream opinion of geek-centric movie tropes.
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Although they won't get the message, studio executives should take away from the failure of Sucker Punch and Scott Pilgrim vs. The World the moral of "don't spend lavishly on geek films with narrow appeal." With a side helping of "a decent story wouldn't kill you."
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
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Well, that and the decent reviews and box office for Source Code and Super, both of which seem like good, though not great, movies.|
Originally Posted by Ironik
At least the schadenfreude will keep you warm.
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| Although they won't get the message, studio executives should take away from the failure of Sucker Punch and Scott Pilgrim vs. The World the moral of "don't spend lavishly on geek films with narrow appeal." With a side helping of "a decent story wouldn't kill you." |
Here's a from-the-trenches account of the theatrical release of Watchmen: When I and my friends emerged from the moviehouse after seeing Watchman on opening weekend - we paid our geek dues, thanks, Mr. Snyder - those of us who'd read the original were disappointed that Snyder had put all his effort into recreating the visuals and nothing below the surface of the characters, the plot, or the mood, while those who hadn't could not understand the fuss made over what seemed like just another grim 'n' gritty deconstruction of superheroes. Similar reactions could be found everywhere, which was why we (the comic geek faithful) were begged to see it again the next weekend and head off the inevitable sharp box office drop and then blamed for not supporting it - which, I predict, will also be Sucker Punch's fate.
Unless you can mount a substantive argument in favor of the director's cut for Watchmen*, you're only preaching to the choir of Snyder fans, just as you've been trying to mount a defense of a badly performing, critically drubbed movie whose partisans have now switched to the same blame-the-audience tactic "The Problem Isn't Zack Snyder. The Problem Is You."
No, really, the problem with Zack Snyder's movies is Zack Snyder as a director/producer/writer.
* in another thread, if you'd be so kind, as though this one hasn't derailed enough.