Why won't people respec their fitness powers?
By
Ael Rhiana,
Posted on: 2011-03-18 18:58 in Player Questions
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No he said bad players think fitness is needed for a good build.
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Originally Posted by Baarogue
Did you really just say only bad players use good builds? Surely not. :P
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I'll have you know, my builds are perfectly fine with old-style fitness! I dare you to find any flaws! That's right, it's the perfect character, and any modifications could only make her worse!
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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Can do better? Sure. |
Originally Posted by BaaBaaBlacksheep
"I know you are but what am I?" Come on, man. You can do better. Or did you not respec your forum build when they made the Comeback pool inherent? :3
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Worth it? Nope.
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I don't think anyone's asserting that a few more percentage points are not beneficial. They are saying, rather correctly, that it is a fallacy that failing to go after those few percentage points will drag down an entire team.|
Originally Posted by Baarogue
And how could those utility powers and "couple more" percentage points not improve every character?
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Now I understand that there are groups of players who aim for this sort of thing - min/max builds to power though whatever they are doing in the quickest, most efficient way possible. That is fine, no-one is begrudging you what you enjoy. But considering the general casual atmosphere of CoH, and that min/maxing is not required to pass anything the game throws at us with flying colours. Dismissing potential team mates (when looking outside your stable of min/maxing buddies) due to a lack of inherent fitness is insane. A number of pre-inherent builds can achieve numbers greater that what your average player who has inherent fitness comes up with.
Could those numbers potentially become greater yet? Yes. Is it required to complete any task in the game? no. A team full of sub-optimal builds can do anything, as long as the players behind those builds know what they are doing.
"My inner mind has become a reality-cracking overgod. He torments me! Help!"
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Was that build bad before inherent fitness? Or are you saying it's bad NOW because it doesn't have it, where it was fine before?|
Originally Posted by Baarogue
I literally FEEL BAD when my build drags the team down and they have to carry me. I won't play my defender right now because he's got just the sort of trash build I'm hating on here - and won't until I can figure out a respec that feels right, because I know that I'd be pulling down the rest of the team because MY *** is too <insert excuse here> to get it done.
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Do you have a problem playing that character? Perhaps it's not the build. And that, before you say anything, is not an attack. Some powersets and/or ATs don't click with some people. There's nothing wrong with that. But that attitude CAN bleed over into how well (or poorly) you play them - or THINK you're playing them.
For instance, I can't stand Illusion controllers. Absolutely hate the set. Only reason I have one at 47 right now is that I'm on a "One of each control set to 50" kick, and that one was my closest. When I play it, yes, I feel like I'm somewhat dead weight - even though the team's fully buffed, bubbles and leadership running, what control I *have* is being put out there, etc. Once it hits 50, it's probably getting shelved... yet in the meantime I'm making tanks happy for getting a bunch more resistance, the team's doing more damage thanks to the sonic siphon, possibly getting healed or buffed by enemies I've confused and the like. They're surprised (well, not my regular group any longer) when I complain about the character, since it's actively helping out and doing reasonably well. But my attitude toward it makes me feel like it's not doing its part.
Am I saying there are no bad builds? Absolutely not. Some end up standing out - such as the rad/rad corruptor who was playing as a "healor" in the mid 30s with no debuffs *at all* (utterly useless when going against GMs,) tanks without mez protection, emps that take no attacks and tend to "rock the aura" and put someone on follow - though that's also a mix of bad players as well.
For all I know, your Defender *does* have a lousy build that needs fixing. Post it in the defender forums and ask for help.
But this idea that "ZOMG u dint respect n2 inherunt fitnes" makes your build worthless or makes you a "drag on the team?" Complete and utter bollocks. I've PUGGed with people who had inherent fitness (and halfway decent, by power selection, builds) and were an utter drag on the team. And I play with people who haven't respecced into it (and have a few builds without it myself) who are more than perfectly fine (such as a friend's Dark/Dark defender who, pre-IOs, was "tanking" for the team, controlling aggro and a good 98% of the time was untouchable.)
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This.
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Originally Posted by StarGeek
Respecing is a PITA.
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(Sometimes, I wish there could be a Dev thumbs up button for quality posts, because you pretty much nailed it.) -- Ghost Falcon
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No, I don't think it's just the legacy fitness that makes him bad. It's probably twelve of one to half-dozen of the other re: just a plain bad build vs not clicking with the character any more - and I know that ratio is unbalanced. |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Was that build bad before inherent fitness? Or are you saying it's bad NOW because it doesn't have it, where it was fine before?
Do you have a problem playing that character? Perhaps it's not the build. And that, before you say anything, is not an attack. Some powersets and/or ATs don't click with some people. There's nothing wrong with that. But that attitude CAN bleed over into how well (or poorly) you play them - or THINK you're playing them. For instance, I can't stand Illusion controllers. Absolutely hate the set. Only reason I have one at 47 right now is that I'm on a "One of each control set to 50" kick, and that one was my closest. When I play it, yes, I feel like I'm somewhat dead weight - even though the team's fully buffed, bubbles and leadership running, what control I *have* is being put out there, etc. Once it hits 50, it's probably getting shelved... yet in the meantime I'm making tanks happy for getting a bunch more resistance, the team's doing more damage thanks to the sonic siphon, possibly getting healed or buffed by enemies I've confused and the like. They're surprised (well, not my regular group any longer) when I complain about the character, since it's actively helping out and doing reasonably well. But my attitude toward it makes me feel like it's not doing its part. Am I saying there are no bad builds? Absolutely not. Some end up standing out - such as the rad/rad corruptor who was playing as a "healor" in the mid 30s with no debuffs *at all* (utterly useless when going against GMs,) tanks without mez protection, emps that take no attacks and tend to "rock the aura" and put someone on follow - though that's also a mix of bad players as well. For all I know, your Defender *does* have a lousy build that needs fixing. Post it in the defender forums and ask for help. But this idea that "ZOMG u dint respect n2 inherunt fitnes" makes your build worthless or makes you a "drag on the team?" Complete and utter bollocks. I've PUGGed with people who had inherent fitness (and halfway decent, by power selection, builds) and were an utter drag on the team. And I play with people who haven't respecced into it (and have a few builds without it myself) who are more than perfectly fine (such as a friend's Dark/Dark defender who, pre-IOs, was "tanking" for the team, controlling aggro and a good 98% of the time was untouchable.) |
Just getting him to 50 was an ordeal, and I know I don't play the game the same way as I did back then. I definitely have a more villain AT mindset, if that makes sense. When I get motivated enough to really work on his build I'll post what he's got now on the defender forums. I'll even page you if you want to come help trash him.
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Of my 19 or 20 50s I've probably respec'd 1/3. Of my other characters (two accounts, five servers) I've done probably none of them. Ones which were made close to or just after the announcement of Inherent fitness didn't take the pool so had it automatically.
When I've respec'd for inherent fitness I have not just taken a one IO wonder pool. I've picked up powers which I wanted and that were useful. I've reworked the whole build to be able to effectively slot after those changes. If I'm going to respec I'm going to get the best out of the effort it takes to do it.
Respecing is a nuisance; it's planning, it's time, it's cost of IOs and the process itself is not fun. Am I missing a power, did I misplace a slot, did I get all the IOs I wanted out because I can't see them without placing them (I accidentally sold a Karma KB because my screen was full of generic IOs on one char), am I going to get a zone event on my head as I'm respecing (redside respecs are both outdoors).
It can take me a few respecs to remove expensive IOs I want to reuse before I even start the new build. I think this was a minimum of four 'fake respecs' on my stalker, tank and VEAT before even starting the new build.
If anyone is seriously suggesting that a character without inherent fitness is sub-par then please please don't team with me because you are clearly delusional. Inherent fitness isn't going to stop you getting whacked on Apex. If that is the make or break of a team then that team has a whole new set of issues to deal with than inherent fitness.
Alternatively please send me a few months sub for both of my accounts and money for my time it costs me to plan and do the respecs, plus the influence it costs to do the builds the way I do them (an almost ground-up re-work) and we'll talk.
I'll still say "get knotted" but hey I'm meeting you half way.
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Read a bit of the thread and didn't see my reason mentioned.
My Fire/Shield Scrapper was my go-to character prior to inherent fitness. When I heard about inherent fitness, I went to work in Mid's coming up with optimal builds to take advantage of it. When working on my Fire/Shield, I realized I hadn't optimized him as much as possible beforehand and would need to buy a bunch of new sets and spec out a bunch of sets to get his new build to work. It would take multiple respecs to get the sets he doesn't need out and the good ones in. I just don't feel like putting in the effort to do that when I have over a dozen other viable characters at level 50. That, and I'm not exactly rich in-game (or out for that matter, but that's besides the point), so buying all the new IO sets would put me back a hefty amount. I've recently had a bit of a windfall with some purple IOs, but since that time I've grown attached to my Inv/SS Tanker and I just don't feel like bothering with the Fire/Shield since I don't rely on him like a main anymore. I guess my reason is actually about 3 reasons in one.
But yeah, there's reasons.
@Johnstone & @Johnstone 2
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Poster quoted has corrected a typo that changed the meaning of what was posted. My original response no longer applies.
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I'm heartbroken.|
Originally Posted by Duneytron2000
Come on... if you're running Apex or something and can't figure out how to use 3 entire power choices to make your character better, I'm a little disappointed.
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This falls under the category of "Mind your own business and don't worry about my build." If I've done something crazy like take only the first power from my secondary, or take 4 travel powers, then MAYBE it's reasonable for you to comment. If my build works and you're just going to quibble about specific power choices, then take a hike.
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Pretty much.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
No he said bad players think fitness is needed for a good build.
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While gaining a few percentage points is nice, the variation between builds depending on what they built towards is far, far greater than the difference adding some additional single slotted powers will make.
Inherent Fitness is nice. It's also not very significant to a well built character. From the sounds of it Baaroque has a really poorly built character that was respecced into a good build after Inherent Fitness was added and is suffering from post hoc ergo propter hoc in regards to Inherent Fitness.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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And here I was thinking this was a satirical post the first time I read it. |
Originally Posted by Baarogue
There's no secret. They're just bad players. Some out of ignorance, others out of laziness, still others out of some selfish, false-prideful refusal to do what they perceive as "conforming", which is really just ignorance in another skin. Playing badly doesn't make anyone a unique snowflake, and nobody's proving anything by doing end-game content with a trash build.
When you're leader of the team, and it's a non-trivial task you're trying to organize, exercise your authority to pick and choose your teammates. If they get turned down from enough stuff they want to do because of their lack of skill, maybe they'll change. More likely though, they'll just slither into another team and leach off them instead. Because after all, remember their war-cry, "it's my $15 and I'll play how I want!!1" ... without a care in the world that they're worsening everyone ELSE's paid-for playtime. |
Sure, grabbing those 3 extra powers can make a build better. But pretty much ANY build, presumably except for those made by the hardcore min/maxing number crunchers, can be made better in some respect. As far as I'm concerned, if you're effective at whatever your role is, that's all that matters.
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Lol.
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Originally Posted by Baarogue
There's no secret. They're just bad players. Some out of ignorance, others out of laziness, still others out of some selfish, false-prideful refusal to do what they perceive as "conforming", which is really just ignorance in another skin. Playing badly doesn't make anyone a unique snowflake, and nobody's proving anything by doing end-game content with a trash build.
When you're leader of the team, and it's a non-trivial task you're trying to organize, exercise your authority to pick and choose your teammates. If they get turned down from enough stuff they want to do because of their lack of skill, maybe they'll change. More likely though, they'll just slither into another team and leach off them instead. Because after all, remember their war-cry, "it's my $15 and I'll play how I want!!1" ... without a care in the world that they're worsening everyone ELSE's paid-for playtime. |
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That command has been a godsend when finishing up a respec. I dont know why the game insists on putting those trash temp powers you accumulate during a career of crimefighting (or crimedoing), but it was the most annoying part of the respec process, and the one that put me off doing them for so long. |
Originally Posted by The Grim Heaper
^this^
The /cleartray (i think) command helps with this, but it's still a PitA. Between this and putting all my enhancements back in place is why I haven't respec'd a number of characters. My 'mains' have all been made 'inherant compliant', but every now and then I like to switch it up and play other characters. And they all made it to 50 with legacy fitness just fine. And really, in most cases all inerrant fitness would do is add a couple utility powers, nothing game changing. |
I mean, there are so many tools available to help the planning process (okay, just two, but between the Sentinel program, and MIDS, running a respec is dead easy, especially if you have a second monitor/computer on which to view the apps), but until I learned about the /cleartray command, I'd sit there for much too long deleting the icons from my trays (and I usually run the default 3, plus at least 1 and sometimes as many as 3 additional trays).
I have nearly 70 character on Virtue alone. Your opinion on whether I've respec'd all of them or not by now means nothing to me, thanks.
Respecing is a PITA. Nearly all of my more advanced characters (level 30 or higher) have set IO builds, and I have to drag MIDS out to plan what I'm going to do before I respec, and then I have to get the slots right and the IOs slotted right while respec'ing, and I often wind up messing up somewhere and backing up once or thrice during the process until I get it done exactly right. And for what? Now several of my toons can both stealth and teleport people on a TF. Nice? Yes, of course it is. Critical to my overall build and performance? Not in the least.
I think 1 out of every 10 toons actually is able to pick up a power that really makes a difference in how I play them. But a lot of my toons have not been respec'd yet.
my lil RWZ Challenge vid
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That pretty much explains it for me. Granted most of my character were simple to respec, I only had to log in on them.|
Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
I'm lazy and I hate respeccing.
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As for my thoughts on why others haven't respec'd out of Fitness, I couldn't care less.
Playing the game = Fun
Respec'ing a level 50 ≠ Fun
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I guess I'm a liar then.|
Originally Posted by Silver Gale
do not tell me you're able to remember your entire build and recreate it in the respec screen without consulting any external sources, because you are a liar
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I'm not going to claim I could do that on ALL my characters. But on my favorite, most-used characters, I have spent so many hours tweaking their build that on my main, I did do the Issue 19 respec without Mids' or any other external source.
@Roderick
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You don't need to write it down, you can just alt-tab between CoX and Mids', even if you're in Full Screen mode (some people apparently have problems when trying to alt tab... but that's not the game's fault, but most likely crappy drivers + slightly non standard video card... but even then, windowed mode will still work).|
Originally Posted by Silver Gale
Even if I just have the exact same build with three new LotG mules, it still requires me to 1) write down the order of my power choices and the slotting (do not tell me you're able to remember your entire build and recreate it in the respec screen without consulting any external sources, because you are a liar).
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Not that that comes anywhere close to removing all the tedium, but you hardly need to whip out a piece of paper or anything! Your other points also still stand.
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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I've not done it yet because I haven't decided which bonus powers to pick 
@Golden Girl
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Originally Posted by Duneytron2000
Disclaimer: I know that plenty of perfectly effective builds exist that spend power slots getting stamina. I don't really have strong feelings about this issue, it just tweaks me the wrong way and I must comment.
[minor rant] I am shocked and a little disturbed by how many people still have 3 powers spent on fitness pool. I thought maybe they didn't know, so I've asked a couple times and in both instances, the person responded that they just didn't bother respeccing, or obstinately refused to respec. Come on... if you're running Apex or something and can't figure out how to use 3 entire power choices to make your character better, I'm a little disappointed. You're willing to grind away for incarnate shards, but not .. I don't know, pick up medicine pool, or fighting pool, or recall friend, or leadership. All these things would help the team, and some of them wouldn't even require spending more enh slots. I can understand some builds not taking power X, saying they don't need it and justifying it, and that's fine, but giving up 3 whole power slots just so you can NOT have one of the fitness powers is dumb. Fortunately, the game isn't really hard enough that it REALLY matters anyway, but it bothers me on some fundamental level and I don't know why. Obviously, before the fitness was free, these characters were viable. Every time I see them now, I consider them to have roughly the same level of familiarity with the game as someone who uses jump kick and team flight in combat. Just... go respec now, and we will speak nothing further of it. [/minor rant] |
gee i'm sorry some of MY toons don't measure up to YOUR standards, gosh i guess you should just stop paying my monthly fee, you whining self indulgent, obsessive ****.
off to respec all the rest of my toons so they can all pick up jump kick and team flight.
Oh yeah, that was the time that girl got her whatchamacallit stuck in that guys dooblickitz and then what his name did that thing with the lizards and it cleared right up.
screw your joke, i want "FREEM"
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With a furry baby, nothing can stop you.
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Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
*puts Jump Kick on auto*
I think I shall make a new character named the Jumpkick Snowflake! What I find funny about some people obsessed with min/maxing (not all, not by a long shot) is that they seem to be under the impression that it is needed... which leads me to think that some of them are really very bad players. I like a challenge... Give me nothing bu Jump Kick, Whirlwind and Furry baby! Woohoo!!!! *does the jump kick dance* |
I don't suffer from altitis, I enjoy every minute of it.
Thank you Devs & Community people for a great game.
So sad to be ending ):
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Let's be honest, your toons don't measure up to anyones standards. |
Originally Posted by Traegus
gee i'm sorry some of MY toons don't measure up to YOUR standards
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Just teasing. Your toons are fine just the way they are.
And a new star is born!! Thank you!
@Zethustra
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and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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Your assertions are borderline absurd on their face. Are you really that unskilled at actually playing your characters that you require the most min/maxed build to succeed?
I literally FEEL BAD when my build drags the team down and they have to carry me. I won't play my defender right now because he's got just the sort of trash build I'm hating on here - and won't until I can figure out a respec that feels right, because I know that I'd be pulling down the rest of the team because MY *** is too <insert excuse here> to get it done.
OTOH, my dom, brute, and even my mm are all builds I'm happy with (though my dom isn't in my ultimate planned build yet) and I play them to the best of my ability. Am I the best? Newp. Could I learn more? Yerp. Am I gonna learn it from you, Bill, or the rest of this crowd? Who knows? If Bill really has done all the things he bragged about above, I could probably learn some tricks from him. Am I likely to play with him? Not if he looks out for my global.
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