Discussion: One game, one global server access
By
0verload,
Posted on: 2011-03-14 17:12 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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I don't remember anyone bringing race into it?! I know we were talking about discrimination but I don't remember race being mentioned as a deciding factor in who gets the global name.|
Originally Posted by tanstaafl
And if you were in the EU playing a US account, you wouldn't be affected.
If you were in the US playing an EU account, you would be affected. See how not only race, but location doesnt matter? Bringing racial issues into this is the rubbish, and frankly is minimising the serious issues of racial discrimation. |
Plus all you've really done is reinforced the point that it's the EU accounts who are being shafted. So thanks for that.
Yes there will always be a handful of peeps who play in the US on EU accounts and vice versa, but they'll be a huge minority (if that makes sense). Personally I know a few people who once created US accounts to start playing the game but are now EU side since the game launched here. I don't know of any Americans who play over on the EU servers but I'm sure there are a few. But predominantly the reason still falls to geographical discrimination..... which was the point all along.
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The devs are meeting to discuss server merges in the year 2013. However, Zwillinger is prevented from discussing that meeting per the Temporal Nondisclosure Extension to his work contract which all community representatives were required to sign on August 14, 2012.
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Originally Posted by Capa_Devans
Currently, eh?
*waits* |
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Quick and dirty example:| This bit above is the bit I don't get at all. I'm struggling to see how the Veterancy option could be unfair to anyone?!? Admittedly if I was a victim of it I'd be miffed, but I'd have to admit it was fair. |
NA player has two accounts. One is called @Light, the other @Dark. One of the accounts was created at launch, the other after CoV, so their vet status is different, but the player has been around since the beginning.
EU player has @Dark and has more vet status than the NA @Dark account, but not as much as the player behind the NA account. Is it fair to preempt the NA player's second account, even though he's been a longer-playing and longer-paying customer?
Basing status on some arbitrary counter attached to an account might sound good at first glance, but, like basing your opinion of one's playing ability on the number of vet badges the character has doesn't tell the whole story, you're not accurately comparing yourself to that player.
"Fairness" is subjective. The decision NCSoft made ultimately was not, nor should it be. They chose the route that affects the least amount of people (whether some choose to believe or not, the math doesn't lie). It just so happened to include all of the EU players. And it won't affect ALL of the EU players. Any other choice would have affected more people, and that would have been an unfair decision. A company should always make decisions based on negatively affecting the least amount of people, regardless of fairness, because my version of fair isn't the same as yours. Tough decisions that get made by objective people are usually the best ones.
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I did just read that. Your point fails to even approach being related to that document.|
Originally Posted by Toffy
You miss my point I'm not on about racial discrimation, i'm on about the act that cover all form of discrimation, it just happens to go by the title EU Racial Equality Directive (2000/43/EC). I'm sure you can find a copy on the internet to look at if you want to view it. do warn you it's a long and boring read.
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Originally Posted by Toffy
You are still be discrimation on where which server you log onto, which is cover in the above EU directive.
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Racial Equality Directive (2000/43/EC)
"Concept of discrimination1. For the purposes of this Directive, the principle of equal treatment shall mean that there shall be no direct or indirect discrimination based on racial or ethnic origin."
"direct discrimination shall be taken to occur where one person is treated less favourably than another is, has been or would be treated in a comparable situation on grounds of racial or ethnic origin;"
Unless you can prove that NCsoft is discriminating against a specific racial or ethnic origin, someone is bound to laugh you out of court if you tried.
If NCsoft said that German ancestry, Greek ancestry, Anglo-Saxons, or Celtic ancestry, were barred from playing the game then they'd run afoul of that directive. They are not doing that. They are modifying their terms of service in a way you don't like. As it stands, I have far more sympathy for Knightingale and Shadow_Kitty. I hope that the community reps can find out for them (and others) if they will be affected by a global handle conflict.
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That is a completely arbitrary point of view. You're defining the only important groups of players to be NA and EU players, and anything that spreads things out between the two groups is not discriminatory.|
Originally Posted by Toffy
Something like amount of vet time gain as people have mention would not be discrimation as you ca not say where the people would be affected, as it would be over both server, thus both sets of players are been treat equality.
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If I choose to divide the players into two groups: recent subscribers and veteran subscribers, then changing only EU accounts spreads the changes out equally among recent and veteran subscribers.
You self-identify as an "EU subscriber" so you believe that set definition deserves special consideration. But its a completely arbitrary choice to afford EU subscribers special protection from inequitable discrimination higher than all other groups of players. But if you don't think there are players who self-identify as veteran or recent subscribers and have differences of opinion on what should the equity be between the two groups, then you were not here when veteran rewards were announced.
Except for the case of changing all accounts, all options discriminate. Its just not illegal or unethical discrimination. We also discriminate against people who don't pay subscriptions. But short of changing everyone, all other potential changes discriminate against someone. And if we change everyone, we're saying we're willing to inconvenience everyone unnecessarily to satisfy the fairness doctrine of a few. You get to pick your poison. Target some and not all, and you're discriminatory. Target all and not some, and you're unnecessarily inconvenient. Whichever one you pick, there will be a lot of people who will know in their hearts that you are an idiot for picking badly.
Of course, one of those groups is unreasonably wrong. The other one.
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The math doesn't lie, but it can be misunderstood. The fact that the number of EU players is smaller is completely irrelevant to the discussion. If there are 500 name conflicts, then 500 EU players and 500 NA players are involved. Kindly explain how 500 EU players is less than 500 NA players.
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Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
They chose the route that affects the least amount of people (whether some choose to believe or not, the math doesn't lie).
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Even if you could, which you cannot in this circumstance, the treaty in question affects member states. Unless NCSoft joined the European Union when I wasn't looking, that treaty does not apply to NCSoft. It applies to the member countries of the EU, which are obligated to enact local laws consistent with the treaty. NCSoft can only run afoul of those local laws, if they exist and are relevant to this action. They can no more violate 2000/43/EC than they can violate the Treaty of Versailles.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Unless you can prove that NCsoft is discriminating against a specific racial or ethnic origin, someone is bound to laugh you out of court if you tried.
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The treaty in question does refer to discrimination of the kind recognized by most discrimination laws: gender, religion, ethnicity. As the NCSoft change affects all EU citizens equally without regard to age, gender, ethnicity, or religion, it would fail the basic test for being a covered type of discrimination which means no member state is required to enact laws which would cover the right of all EU citizens to equal protection of global chat handles relative to citizens of countries within North America. You'd probably have a better chance of arguing this to be an illegal tariff. But honestly that only converts the argument from nonsensical to ludicrous.
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On the contrary, discrimination happens all the time. Access to City of Heroes at all is discriminatory based on those who are willing and able to pay. The ability to play is discriminatory to the computer you have (official support is only given to Intel Macs and PCs with Windows XP or above - Linux users have a hack but it's not officially supported. Windows 98, BeOS, and PPC Mac users are out in the cold).|
Originally Posted by Knightingale
We're not being silly. Honestly what's the difference?
I agree we're not being discriminated against because of our race, ethnic origin, religion, sex, colour of our skin, what car we drive, what we have for breakfast, how many badgers we own...... Maybe this isn't as serious as the racial discrimination that happened in the 60's. It is, after all, just a game. But discrimination is discrimination. Doesn't matter what the differentiating factor is. |
While numbers have never been released, my presumption is that the number of City of Heroes NA accounts is huge, and the number of City of Heroes EU accounts is pretty big too (this includes all inactive/trial accounts). Given that the NA database is significantly larger (I doubt anyone will argue against that), I'm sure the code they've written uses the NA database and adds records from the EU database. Their scheme, then, is simple. Is there a conflict on the new account name for the record being added? Change it before adding. Is there a conflict in the global? Clear it before adding. Simpler code, far less chance of bugs introduced that could corrupt the database, perhaps even running faster. These are three justifiable reasons for adopting this system. (And I suspect they've got this code written and probably tested on copies of the database and known to be working, which is another advantage - always hard to pull code out of the "frozen" status.)
Now, as I've said, I believe that the negative effects on the EU customers are more important than the these reasons, particularly for global name. I think the advantages in making EU customers happy outweigh the downsides of having to make these changes. But that's a judgement call.
Which is very different from race or sex or ethnic origin, where the only reason for that discrimination is "I don't like those people". And equating discrimination for "I don't like them" with "we've got working code that is simpler and less likely to have bugs" is, to use a word, silly. And arguing that they are the same, threatening "you're breaking the law", stating "you MUST do this because we're in the EU" is not only silly, it's counter productive.
Again, to make it very clear - I think the current proposal, even with the reactivation to try to change old accounts and even if they can clear inactive globals, is the wrong decision. Global names are important in a social game, the social aspects and community are what The Second Superhero MMO complete messed up, and the benefits to NC Soft in supporting these social connections (and avoiding the cost to NC Soft of angering loyal customers who pay every month) outweigh the time, security, and cost benefits of going with what they have now. But it's a question of "what's the better thing to do", not "what do they have a duty to do" and definitely not "what are they legally required to do."
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Because that would be caring too much about not caring. Duh.
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Originally Posted by Slazenger
If global names mean nothing to you, why are you called Bloodspeaker ?, why not have your global name as '@Not bothered or @Don't care?
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Hey Zwillinger. Can you give us more information on chat channels when the merger happens. as asked serveral posts up ( i say this as it gives credit to those who came up with this question before me 
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will they be deleted? will they follow us if so what happens if theres a clash? etc
As within the EU (At least) chat channels are basically like SG's/VG's- like family, we all know eachother there and play the game from it...for one example: Union Chat /Sals badgehunter channel
And for those who dont seem to understand fully aboot this name deal issue.. i know its only a game to some..but our names in game are almost/ if not just as important as our real life names. If we was just forced to simply change it for whatever reason its a kind of kick in the teeth u know..what if i forced u to change your real life name..yer you wouldnt have it. Our life in game..either playing full time to part time is our life overall. why do you think we care so much aboot our rep, way we look, our names, bio etc..(dare i say) our names in this game is..our second life. and alot of us are proud of names..yer so they might not be original..but its us..its who we are.
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Thanks for the update, Z, although I would like to put forth the idea that there is no risk in globally renaming, or even nuking, inactive trial accounts. They're not paying customers, and if they've been active more than a month or two, it's pretty unlikely they're coming back. When I trial a game, I either buy it right there, or I uninstall it and don't usually look again.|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
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Paying customers trump non-paying potentials who tried it and never came back, EVERY single time.
As to the discrimination argument. Guys, please stop being silly. There is zero disscrimination here, so that EU directive cannot apply and seriously, you'd want to apply it? GREAT way to get your game account insta-banned (try reading your EULA some time).
As for the veteran status, I'm not bothered about that criteria at all. There's no way it can really be applied fairly. My only issue is with the trial accounts, and I don't think anyone has disagreed about them needing to be disregarded...
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Hmmm, how many guesses do I get? Wouldn't be because it was the name of my first character, would it?
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Originally Posted by Slazenger
If global names mean nothing to you, why are you called Bloodspeaker ?, why not have your global name as '@Not bothered or @Don't care?
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You realize that if I send an E-mail to myself using my global I can use either @scootertwo, @ScooterTwo, @scooterTwo, @SCOOTERTWO etc. etc. etc. if anyone at NCsoft was sniggering at you it was because you paid money to change the display of your name when it really changed nothing as far as using the Global E-mail system. :/
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Originally Posted by Slazenger
I would also like to add that a month ago, I paid to have my global changed, it was the same name but I changed it to all lower case for ease of using e-mails etc.
Now after purchasing this, I am hearing NCsoft snigger at me, we got his money now announce he 'might' lose his global anyway. |
Glad I'm not the only one who spotted that.
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Three objections.|
Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
Quick and dirty example:
NA player has two accounts. One is called @Light, the other @Dark. One of the accounts was created at launch, the other after CoV, so their vet status is different, but the player has been around since the beginning. EU player has @Dark and has more vet status than the NA @Dark account, but not as much as the player behind the NA account. Is it fair to preempt the NA player's second account, even though he's been a longer-playing and longer-paying customer? |
1) Even if we ignore that this example is a bit artificial: in the hypothetical Vet Scheme, the NA player loses one global name of two, i.e. 50% of his globals. If the proposed Geographical Scheme was used to resolve this conflict, the EU player loses one global name of one, i.e. 100% of his globals. So in this particular example, the NA player gets "half the damage" of the EU player. If we are to select scheme based on doing as little damage as possible to any given player, Vet Scheme is less unfair than Geo Scheme in this particular case.
However, this is just one example. We have to look at the whole. Hence objection 2.
2) Even if we ignore "half damage" and it doesn't matter how many globals you lose out of how many - if you lose one, you're as much hurt as someone who loses twelve - the Vet Scheme shafts players in special cases like the above. It's not geographically bound either; it could in theory happen to a EU player as well. But it's still a special case.
However, the Geo Scheme shafts every geographically selected player with a name conflict. That's not the special case. It's the general case.
And even then you can argue that that's not valid, because in every conflict there will be two parts: one affected player and one not affected, so it's not a special case that the Vet Scheme shafts a player. Every scheme will shaft one player. Which brings me to objection three.
3) No matter what scheme you select, there will be a certain number of conflicts. In all those conflicts, there will be one affected player. The scheme only selects which player gets affected, but the number of affected players is constant. If there are X conflicts, there will be X affected players, no matter the scheme.
Of all those players, you will find a lot more affected players saying "oh, it's okay, The Other Guy had more vet badges than me, so it's just fair he gets the global", than affected players saying "oh, it's okay, The Other Guy is from the other side of the pond, so it's just fair he gets the global".
Still @Shadow Kitty
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Actually, I wasn't complaining about discrimination. I was correcting Capa_Devans' statement that EU players abide under US law since the servers are in Texas. |
Originally Posted by Gangrel_EU
My counter sounds stupid doesnt it? But its just as valid as your complaint.
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And that's not the case. Well, it's true that the servers are in Texas, but European players have a business relation with an European entity under a contract that is explicitly governed by English law, and any legal disputes are to be settled in an English court.
That may very well change in the future (unlikely, since international transactions of contracts are pretty tricky), but at the present, it doesn't matter that the servers are in Texas. Our contracts and business relations are with NCsoft Europe, Brighton, UK.
Still @Shadow Kitty
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Aha, thanks |
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
No, they are the current data inside the collection. Programming speak.
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While being swedish is awesome, it sometimes makes things a little complicated for me language-wise XDQuote:
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Well thanks for making the developer's job harder. Also in what way did you preform the "check"? If you find a global name by checking character names, then that fails because not all character names are global names. For instance I know that "Snow Globe" the character only describes me on 2/11 servers, but "Snow Globe" is my global handle.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
If you tried renaming your global handle (the only real way that I know of to test to see if a global name exists), then on the first "successful" change that wasn't taken you would be prevented from "testing" further as you can only preform a chat handle change once.
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Can only speak for myself here. But my global of @Q. is short and easy to remember. Ideally I'd skip the dot because it gets missed sometimes but the global name generator don't allow one letter. My argument here is that if I become @EUQ. (although, googling that made me smile) or @Q._EU.|
Originally Posted by Bloodspeaker
And... how is making a mental shift from "Slazenger" to "EUSlazenger" a problem, for you or anyone else on the EU servers? I seriously do not get this. Not picking on you specifically, but a great many folks have gone on about how this is going to "impact their online identity" to the extent that I'm glad I rarely drink soda at my desk. I hate having soda in my nose, anyway.
And honestly, this question is largely rhetorical. Any of you can try to explain it, but I'm highly unlikely to ever "get it" well enough to sympathize. At this stage, I'd be perfectly happy to go by @NABlood Speaker and let a potential @EUBlood Speaker keep the name, regardless of vet status. I honestly don't think any of my numerous server and global friends are going to be the least bit confused. |
My problem is, this being provided that my NA counterpart gets to skip the NA in their name, people who might be talking to me, would direct their tells to him/her instead of me.
Sure, this'll only be for a while before they learn. And I'm gonna get used to it too, not saying I won't. It just seems like a lot of hassle, and I'm a creature of habit.
I'm completely -fine- with everyone getting the NA or EU on their name.
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Just because it's of interest to me (I honestly don't care if this is "discrimination" or not): There are possibly grounds for considering this discrimination under the Equality Act 2010.
As defined in the act, Nationality is a part of race, and is a protected characteristic.
The act defines direct discrimination, including (but not limited to): A person (A) discriminates against another (B) if, because of a protected characteristic, A treats B less favourably than A treats or would treat others.
Under the Provisions of Service portion of the act (which includes public and private sector services, which is what NCSoft does): A service-provider (A) must not, in providing the service, discriminate against a person (B)—
(a)as to the terms on which A provides the service to B;
(b)by terminating the provision of the service to B;
(c)by subjecting B to any other detriment.
Discuss.
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Please can we move our characters from our EU account into the US one? I started up again on US Virtue server because of the lack of people on the EU ones, but I actually have been playing on for like over 5 years now since City of Villains came out (City of Heroes was marketed as very cheesy and bland so never picked it up I'm more of a Batman Begins kinda girl The base idea really attracted me too because I thought it would be more like Dungeon Keeper 2, said it before say it again that it is a shame that you couldn't have them used more with the game story than just pvp, which I used to enjoy now and then actually before the ridiculous issue 11 or whatever changes where they made blasters have scrapper durability whilst doing more damage, etc, which you think they would have realised killed off most of the pvp players even on Virtue it seems and rolled back by now, I don't get that. Also killing off motivation for going to the areas other than people who enjoy doing stuff for no real reason - I actually liked to bring my supergroup to RV and fight over the turrets before the whole AE farming crap I remember it actually meant something to control RV) - my account on the EU ones I have not logged on for ages but the characters I have have purples and stuff that I have not bothered to regain in my year or so on the US servers - I basically gave up playing the game, although I had already cos of boredom anyway really, I didn't want to restart afresh totally because it is such a ridiculous grind to get to the top now with invention origin enhancements, so just ignored it in favour of RP... If I had my characters back I might actually play missions again, and I bet I'm not the only one, I have bumped into quite a few people on Virtue from the UK.
Also VERY IMPORTANT: Can we please please please please also please move our supergroups? For people that want to restart on the more populated Virtue server like I did, it would encourage them to actually keep communities alive rather than the rather depressing "yeah, but see that mountain you need to climb to get a large base again? you start UNDERGROUND." Prestige built up over years is not really replacable - I have a dormant SG on my EU account with none of the people apart from me still playing, I would actually be interested in reviving it if I knew there were more people alive to actually enjoy it (e.g. on Virtue rather than the utterly dead server in comparison Union) -- One thing maybe that could be simpler would actually be to give us the option of transferring the only real unreplacable part of SGs (people can move freely, it can't) which is the prestige, even that would be good really if that would be easier on the programmy kind of things for us to remake the SG and then have the prestige transferred, I wouldn't mind remaking the entire base just to have the prestige back
Would be very very grateful if you could take the time to include options to do this to people who supported you early on in the EU rather than mostly leaving us by the wayside and saying "hey, if you want to play on the US servers you now have the option, but you're going to have to lose half of your characters by dropping either your US or EU account and one of your supergroups one way or another") - they would be much, much, more appreciated than more veteran rewards
There's nothing discriminatory about it. Would you rather piss off 90% of your player base or just 10%. I think I'd rather piss off the ten. Anyway, your point is moot every time you accept the user agreement before you enter the game.
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So your point is that a EULA > The Laws of the Country under which that EULA is administered?|
Originally Posted by RiggsMcClane
There's nothing discriminatory about it. Would you rather piss off 90% of your player base or just 10%. I think I'd rather piss off the ten. Anyway, your point is moot every time you accept the user agreement before you enter the game.
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Legal fail.
And the point of the Equality Act is that you're flat out NOT ALLOWED to (as you put it) "piss off" the (alleged) 10% of your player base on the basis of their nationality.
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Will you be holding your breath as well oh Captain DOOOOOOOOOMMMMM!!!!?
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Originally Posted by Capa_Devans
Currently, eh?
*waits* |
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Still sounds fair to me. |
Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
Quick and dirty example:
NA player has two accounts. One is called @Light, the other @Dark. One of the accounts was created at launch, the other after CoV, so their vet status is different, but the player has been around since the beginning. EU player has @Dark and has more vet status than the NA @Dark account, but not as much as the player behind the NA account. Is it fair to preempt the NA player's second account, even though he's been a longer-playing and longer-paying customer? . |
EU player has been PAYING for longer than the NA player has been PAYING for that second account. Sure he should keep the first one with long veterancy, but does that mean that he should keep the naming rights to any other account he/she's created since?
I don't think so. It's a whol seperate account, paid for separately.
Take your same argument, and say what if NA player created 2 accounts (just like you said), the first one 7 years ago and another just 6 weeks ago.
Should the fact he's been an subscriber on ONE account for 7 years automatically override the fact that his SECOND account may be under threat from an EU player who has the same Global as his 2nd account but has had it from the EU launch 6 years ago?
Hence, and as people KEEP saying over and over and over again..... fairest way to do it is base it on veterancy of the account. They've PAID for that account name for longer, however you slice it.
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And I *honestly* dont think that the forced naming of global counts as discrimination.
If it is, then basing it on veterancy in the game is would also be discrimination as well (Discrimination of the old over the new in this case)
My counter sounds stupid doesnt it? But its just as valid as your complaint.