Would You Be Willing to Delay the Lore Slot to Change the Pets?
By
Acemace,
Posted on: 2011-03-02 22:56 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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It's the same mistake they made with the Patron Power pets, and the PP's themselves actually, so don't hold your breath.
| I do, however, feel the Devs made a mistake here, and I hope they're learning from it. |
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I wouldn't describe it that way. I don't think the Patron choice itself is an error at all. There's nothing wrong with making the player make a choice, and that choice irrevocably alters the course of their content. Some content like that is fine.|
Originally Posted by Venture
It's the same mistake they made with the Patron Power pets, and the PP's themselves actually, so don't hold your breath.
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It *was* a mistake to lock Patron power pools to that choice, because it created a major imbalance between the hero side and the villain side. The hero side had options for respec of epic pools, so that players could alter changes in decision about those. Villains could not. That was an important distinction. If villains could reselect a patron and run that arc to open the other patron pools, that would not be so bad - it would be a more advanced version of running arcs to unlock hero-side 30ish stores. But that made the two elements have incompatible requirements: Patron pools require the ability to redo, Patron arcs wanted a single choice. Linking two game elements with opposing game design requirements was a third, meta mistake.
The Lore pets are a completely different error in my opinion. They are taking something very fundamental to a specific kind of gameplay - pets - and making them a fundamental part of the Incarnate primary abilities. They have to know that many players pick archetypes other than controllers or dominators specifically *because* they don't want to be the Beastmaster. That's true to a degree its not for any other kind of power. To me, that's an error in judgment.
Its compounded by another error: providing one and only one possible origin for the source of this power. In effect, Incarnates are overriding all origins and all backstories. However we became what we are, how we become Incarnates is being written by the devs, and only the devs. We have absolutely no choice in the matter. That is a *cosmic* error for a game that sells itself on its open character creation capabilities. That's almost as bad as making it so that when you unlock Alpha and slot a power, your costume changed into an Incarnate uniform, because all Incarnates have special uniforms in Paragon City and the Rogue Isles. No matter how brilliant a story teller you are and how amazingly you justify that in-game, your brilliant writing destroyed a core critical element of this game: visual customization of characters.
On a far lesser scale, no matter how brilliant the writers think they justified Lore, and frankly I believe I'm extending a lot of benefit of the doubt there, it doesn't matter if it takes away something critical to the game, which is at least *some* control over our characters intrinsic nature. If Venture doesn't want to be a necromancer, the Lore pets need to give him an out. Given that they figured out a workable way to do that with the combat pets (my energy blaster takes the glowing blue ball and calls it a day, no matter what the thing thinks it is, its a glowing blue ball following a girl that shoots energy out of her hands: that's workable), I would think it was worth the extra time to figure out how to do that with the Lore pets.
Keep in mind: this is coming from me. I generally defend the devs when it comes to story telling latitude, and when it comes to the game lore having a say over the mechanics of the game. *Some* of that is important to immersion: there have to be rules, and the story rules and the game rules should align. But in my opinion the Lore pets cross a line that shouldn't be crossed without sufficient justification that I can currently see.
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Thank you all for the mostly civil responses. I know there are plenty of people on both sides of the issue. I'm glad we can talk about this rationally without resorting to name calling or mocking each other.
I want to add that, for me personally, if the pets are not changed, I'm not going to do a total freak out, just like I'm not having a freak out about them the way they currently are. This should not be confused with the feeling that I think they are "right" for this game. I think that 1) pets themselves are a misstep and 2) Praetorian pets in particular are even more wrong. I'm glad we were able to hear a variety of different opinions.
In defense of the devs, I will say that there already are several instances where we can summon specific pets, and it doesn't appear to train wreck the game. For example, snow beasts, shivans, and Amy's ward. I think the major issue though is being told the ultimate power we are achieving boil back down to snow beasts, shivans, and Amy's ward. To put it bluntly (but hopefully not too harshly): I feel like these extremely powerful end game powers are a rehash of temp powers, and are accessories to my character rather than core features.
In terms of the concept missteps, I agree with Arcanna (I think). Basically what I feel like the game is telling me is "Look how powerful the well is!" rather than "The well is a tool that has awakened some power within you." It's a subtle distinction, but for a game as traditionally open as this one, it feels ram-rodded. Basically the equivalent of a person sitting in Pocket D with a bio that says "No matter how you imagined yourself, I am actually the one who architected every aspect of your power, and for that matter every one else's." I half expect the next set of story arcs to introduce me to my "life long best friend, who I grew up with in a small town in the Midwest, who betrays me in the second act."
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This. This is what really gets me a tad miffed about it all.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
In terms of the concept missteps, I agree with Arcanna (I think). Basically what I feel like the game is telling me is "Look how powerful the well is!" rather than "The well is a tool that has awakened some power within you." It's a subtle distinction, but for a game as traditionally open as this one, it feels ram-rodded. Basically the equivalent of a person sitting in Pocket D with a bio that says "No matter how you imagined yourself, I am actually the one who architected every aspect of your power, and for that matter every one else's." I half expect the next set of story arcs to introduce me to my "life long best friend, who I grew up with in a small town in the Midwest, who betrays me in the second act."
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Short answer: yes, delay the Lore slot as long as necessary to include a wide variety of pet skins/options.
Long answer: opinionated response follows.
City of Heroes used to be the customization MMOG. The only MMOGs that used to have more customization options were virtual worlds rooted in life simulation, such as Second Life or Twinity. This isn't quite true anymore and certain other MMOGs on the horizon may leave Paragon Studios in the dust, customization-wise. Yes, I realize the graphics engine is seven years old. However, this didn't use to stop our development team; now they just fall back on that fact like a crutch.
In my opinion, in the last few years our development team has gotten lazy. They no longer take the time necessary to allow new parts and pieces added to the game to be fully customizable and half-*** power animation and color customization. They seem to be releasing content that is clearly meant to simply pacify the vocal minority and get stuff out the door ASAP. Ever since Architect Entertainment went live, the writing of main storyline content has become abysmal (but some of the Tip missions are well written) and they seem to be pushing more and more onto the player characters, reducing our "customization" options even further.
City of used to be a game built upon customization. Can we get back to that?
I think there's also a question of usefulness of pets to all ATs and power set combinations. I thought the Mu Guardian was great for my dom -- but she was perma when I got the pet, so keeping the Guardian and her imps upright wasn't particularly tough while solo. By the time my dom's build was "done", she had so much recharge that the Guardian was perma (weird, reported bug: if I summoned a new second Guardian before the first one's time was up, the first would de-spawn and the second would de-spawn on the first one's timer). But ... I don't bother with pets on teams. Too much fussing around and resummoning for too little return.
I quickly respecced out of the patron pets for my Fire / Kin corruptor and my Stone / EA brute because they wouldn't last more than 30 seconds. And were completely pointless on teams.
I dunno.
Meh.
I guess the devs are OK with not all powers being of equal use (edit: value?) to all players.
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These pets are rewards handed out for doing specific tasks. So, it makes sense that conceptually they should be linked to these tasks. If Vernon Von Grun let you choose between spiderlings and bees, the first thing I'd ask is "where did he get spiderlings?" How can you get a Freakshow Tank pet out of a meteor fragment in Bloody Bay?|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
In defense of the devs, I will say that there already are several instances where we can summon specific pets, and it doesn't appear to train wreck the game. For example, snow beasts, shivans, and Amy's ward. I think the major issue though is being told the ultimate power we are achieving boil back down to snow beasts, shivans, and Amy's ward.
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As for the Lore pets though, either they're tied to the Well or they're not. If they're not, you can pick a different pet, and if they are, the Well is powerful enough to provide a different pet. Insisting that "they must be Praetorian because they're linked to the Well" is either lazy or obstinate.
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| I half expect the next set of story arcs to introduce me to my "life long best friend, who I grew up with in a small town in the Midwest, who betrays me in the second act." |
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Originally Posted by Paragon
Ever since Architect Entertainment went live, the writing of main storyline content has become abysmal (but some of the Tip missions are well written) and they seem to be pushing more and more onto the player characters, reducing our "customization" options even further.
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I wouldn't say that. They can only work on so many things at once, and end game is taking up a lot of the mechanical attention of the devs. Working on end game *and* standard content *and* major advances to the AE would be a bit much, and even if they managed to stretch themselves out that far someone would just complain about something else they "no longer support."|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
And yet they've pretty much stopped supporting AE, which at least provides story options for people who don't like the ones presented by the devs.
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The last major game mechanical change they added not related to side switching or the end game was the XP adjustments for custom critters and the AE ally code. *And* they did go back and adjust custom critters specifically to deal with the melee underscoring players were concerned about a month later. Support is now just adding new maps and critters and things, but that's what time currently allows for. They clearly haven't abandoned it completely.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
and even if they managed to stretch themselves out that far someone would just complain about something else they "no longer support."
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Still no Super Stunners, Chi Masters, or Girlfriends from Hell when I checked on Beta yesterday. Granted, adding them wouldn't make a huge difference, but not adding them does send a pretty strong message to some people. A lack of major changes would be understandable, priorities and all, but a lack of even minor changes will inevitably be interpreted as "they've given up on it" by people who care about the system.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The last major game mechanical change they added not related to side switching or the end game was the XP adjustments for custom critters and the AE ally code. *And* they did go back and adjust custom critters specifically to deal with the melee underscoring players were concerned about a month later. Support is now just adding new maps and critters and things, but that's what time currently allows for. They clearly haven't abandoned it completely.
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We've already spent over a year complaining about the utter lack of Dev's Choices that didn't come from contests. And don't get me started on the potentially arc-breaking (by "breaking" I mean "make it not work as the author intended," not necessarily "make it not work at all") changes that didn't get a patch note, the most recent being the fix to back-middle blinky spawn points. Yes, it was a bug fix, but it was a consistent bug so authors found a work-around, and the bug fix broke the work-around.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Still no Super Stunners, Chi Masters, or Girlfriends from Hell when I checked on Beta yesterday. Granted, adding them wouldn't make a huge difference, but not adding them does send a pretty strong message to some people. A lack of major changes would be understandable, priorities and all, but a lack of even minor changes will inevitably be interpreted as "they've given up on it" by people who care about the system.
We've already spent over a year complaining about the utter lack of Dev's Choices that didn't come from contests. And don't get me started on the potentially arc-breaking (by "breaking" I mean "make it not work as the author intended," not necessarily "make it not work at all") changes that didn't get a patch note, the most recent being the fix to back-middle blinky spawn points. Yes, it was a bug fix, but it was a consistent bug so authors found a work-around, and the bug fix broke the work-around. |
What you're saying is that it doesn't matter what do, if they don't do what's on your list they've "given up supporting."
Also for something they are ignoring completely, they seem to be breaking a lot.
I note how you phrase it: "it will be interpreted as." I honestly don't care how people interpret dev actions and intents for the most part. Its not like public opinion on this is ever correct more often than random chance would dictate, and usually actually far worse than random chance would dictate. I can agree with you completely that the Dev Choice thing has been mostly a disaster, that the devs fail to provide the proper non-mechanical support to the AE, that they seem totally unable to use it as a community building tool when that is actually supposed to be part of its intended purpose. They've never used it the way it would have the best benefit. You don't score points with me by exaggerating the problem to say they stopped supporting it, which will only prompt me to correct a blatant falsehood that isn't even necessary to illustrate the intended point.
Why contaminate a powerful objection with a trivially easy to disprove error? I'm not so much asking you personally, as I'm wondering aloud.
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Yes, I would be willing to wait. The four choices match so few of my characters' Special Effects that they make no bloody sense whatsoever. For example, my brute incarnate is a tiny Magic Origin Hammer-wielding girl with pixie wings. Ignore the backstory (which amounts to she ran away form the stock Croatoan spirit world and enjoys kicking ****), what of her basic construction or origin says "My expression of Vast Cosmic Power involves calling in a lame robot or cop from a cheesy goatee infested paralel dimension"?
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[EDIT: Tried to add clarity to some jumbled thoughts] |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
What you're saying is that it doesn't matter what do, if they don't do what's on your list they've "given up supporting."
Also for something they are ignoring completely, they seem to be breaking a lot. I note how you phrase it: "it will be interpreted as." I honestly don't care how people interpret dev actions and intents for the most part. Its not like public opinion on this is ever correct more often than random chance would dictate, and usually actually far worse than random chance would dictate. I can agree with you completely that the Dev Choice thing has been mostly a disaster, that the devs fail to provide the proper non-mechanical support to the AE, that they seem totally unable to use it as a community building tool when that is actually supposed to be part of its intended purpose. They've never used it the way it would have the best benefit. You don't score points with me by exaggerating the problem to say they stopped supporting it, which will only prompt me to correct a blatant falsehood that isn't even necessary to illustrate the intended point. Why contaminate a powerful objection with a trivially easy to disprove error? I'm not so much asking you personally, as I'm wondering aloud. |
Despite it's problems, the AE is still one of my favorite things about this game.
But I think criticizing the devs for the AE is a little hard to do (not that you are, just saying in general). We players really haven't done a lot to capitalize on the system. In fact, IMO a lot of general complaints and expectations can be reflected in the AE. For example, one basic kind of complaint about it seems to be that "the player base doesn't love everything I build, but gives 5 stars to farm missions, it's not fair!" If that's not a solid reflection of the daunting task in front of the developers of our "real" content, I don't know what is. Players like me probably frustrate game developers especially; I skip through any kind of long expository text at the beginning and end of missions and expect the objectives and in-game action to explain the scenario at hand.
Getting back to the subject of the Lore spot, does it surprise them that I tend to skip through "story" elements but still care about how my own character's concept fits into the game? I can't say, but the issue is pretty difficult.
I will say that on the plus side of pets, it could potentially give heavy support sets a boost. One thing I've always said about power balance is that it depends almost entirely on the context of the game you're playing. Cold Domination, as a specific example, would probably not enjoy such a good reputation if it weren't a tacit assumption that all major Task Forces conclude with a difficult fight against an Archvillain, and this was the most likely spot for the team to fail.
For a game about heroes supposedly saving victims all the time, there are actually relatively few instances where the game doesn't hambone the "victims" into invincible status. This is part of why a set like Force Field takes a major beating. The set would be more useful if preventing harm from coming to citizens were a major game concern (see Freedom Force for an example of this at work; in that game, the objective was to defeat enemies, but to do it while avoiding accidentally harming citizens or tearing down too much of the city). Anyway, this relates back to pets, because a "support character" is so much more effective at protecting them, and if having pets is now a major game concern, this is a relatively large "buff" to the sets that are good at it.
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Oh, I have a long list. I certainly don't expect them to do everything on it, and certainly not all at once. I see nothing on it in this issue so far. Last issue we got the incomplete addition of new Praetorian mobs, but not the new Primal Earth ones. I found that a bit odd, since at release pretty much every enemy that existed in game also could be used in AE except for a few that I'm sure were excluded for very good reason (such as GMs and Hami). Super Stunners have far more uses than...Mitos. They really should have been added in i18, honestly.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
What you're saying is that it doesn't matter what do, if they don't do what's on your list they've "given up supporting."
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| Also for something they are ignoring completely, they seem to be breaking a lot. |
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| I note how you phrase it: "it will be interpreted as." I honestly don't care how people interpret dev actions and intents for the most part. Its not like public opinion on this is ever correct more often than random chance would dictate, and usually actually far worse than random chance would dictate. |
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It doesn't matter in the sense that public opinion on dev motives is not controllable. The problem for me is that ironically the AE is not a comsumption-focused tool. It actually focuses on authors too much, and worries too much about the concerns of authors and not enough about the concerns of content consumers. If the AE focused architecturally on ensuring that the players have the best possible chance to play the best possible arcs, good writers would flock to it and bad writers would be weeded out, and for me that's the best of all possible circumstances.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
It matters in this case, because a user-based system can't work without users. If writers think the devs don't care, they stop writing. If they stop writing, the only arcs being made are farms, and the players stop playing. If players don't play, writers have less incentive to write....see where this is going? It is a community tool, it only really works with an active community, so whatever the reality, the perception that the devs don't care and their issues will never be addressed does drive people away from it.
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Instead, the focus was on making sure *everyone* could be an author *without any work or thought* and the players had to deal with them all. That was a foundational mistake: the authors should have been given the best authoring tools possible but that's it. They should have not been protected from a playerbase that might not want to play their arcs.
Dev's Choice and the star system are both symptoms of that foundational mistake. And it seems like no writer at Paragon stood up and said "you get tickets when other people play your arc, but its really hard to read feedback and comments. That's backwards. Players want rewards for everything they do, but as an author I believe authors most want to know what people like and dislike about their writing."
I don't think I'm misrepresenting the desire of most authors in general too badly there.
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It is in the sense that "we don't have time right now" is better than "we don't care anymore."|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
It doesn't matter in the sense that public opinion on dev motives is not controllable.
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| The problem for me is that ironically the AE is not a comsumption-focused tool. It actually focuses on authors too much, and worries too much about the concerns of authors and not enough about the concerns of content consumers. If the AE focused architecturally on ensuring that the players have the best possible chance to play the best possible arcs, good writers would flock to it and bad writers would be weeded out, and for me that's the best of all possible circumstances. |
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| Dev's Choice and the star system are both symptoms of that foundational mistake. And it seems like no writer at Paragon stood up and said "you get tickets when other people play your arc, but its really hard to read feedback and comments. That's backwards. Players want rewards for everything they do, but as an author I believe authors most want to know what people like and dislike about their writing." |
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Hmm. As a writer, I would have to say that given a choice between rewards, or having random strangers tell me what they like and dislike about my writing, I would go for the rewards every time.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Players want rewards for everything they do, but as an author I believe authors most want to know what people like and dislike about their writing."
I don't think I'm misrepresenting the desire of most authors in general too badly there. |
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Personally, I'd rather get the feedback. Of course, you make a good point, perhaps a means to auto-ignore/auto-dump feedback would be useful for some too.
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Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
Hmm. As a writer, I would have to say that given a choice between rewards, or having random strangers tell me what they like and dislike about my writing, I would go for the rewards every time.
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Let's Dance!
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For me as a potential AE player, I've mentioned before that I feel the search tools are still incomplete, and inexplicably so. Among other problems, we can search for inclusion, but not search for exclusion.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
It doesn't matter in the sense that public opinion on dev motives is not controllable. The problem for me is that ironically the AE is not a comsumption-focused tool. It actually focuses on authors too much, and worries too much about the concerns of authors and not enough about the concerns of content consumers. If the AE focused architecturally on ensuring that the players have the best possible chance to play the best possible arcs, good writers would flock to it and bad writers would be weeded out, and for me that's the best of all possible circumstances.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I don't think I'm misrepresenting the desire of most authors in general too badly there.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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Stridently seconding your sensible sentiments surrounding AE searches. Seriously.
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Originally Posted by Void_Huntress
For me as a potential AE player, I've mentioned before that I feel the search tools are still incomplete, and inexplicably so. Among other problems, we can search for inclusion, but not search for exclusion.
As a potential AE author, I feel if I can't find the arcs I want, I can't assume any potential audience could find my arcs if my work is what they would want. This erodes motivation to actually attempt to craft a work. |
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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One of the things I would have done is separate the act of "uploading" an arc which would have made it playable by others, and "publishing" the arc which would have made it listed and searchable.|
Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
Hmm. As a writer, I would have to say that given a choice between rewards, or having random strangers tell me what they like and dislike about my writing, I would go for the rewards every time.
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I suspect if you don't care about "random strangers" you're not one of those people writing to be played by random strangers: you're writing for yourself, or maybe friends. I would have allowed such players as yourself (assuming I'm correctly pegging you here) to upload an arc and allow you to give people the arc id so they could play it by invitation. Only if you wanted your arc to be considered by the larger playerbase would you click a "publish" button which would add it to the lists of possible arcs players see when they search the system.
If, on the other hand, you want to write for random strangers but don't want to hear from them at all, I believe you are probably in the very small minority.
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Oh, I've been ******** about this stuff since day four of the beta. I was the one begging on my hands and knees not to release the AE with custom critters basically forced to be extreme in all cases, because there was no lower setting originally. You haven't seen sad until you've seen a granite tanker vaporized by just a bunch of minions packing Rage and Energy Transfer because there's no way to turn either power off.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Oh, don't get me started.
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The scariest thing you could have seen while testing an AE mission in beta: a room that looked completely empty, and as you walked in you suddenly heard a screeching sound coming from all around you in every direction. That was a mission that someone decided to use Ninjitsu in, and you were hearing thirty stalkers pop build up before hitting your team with triple strength uninterruptible assassin's strikes from stealth.
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WOW, that's sounds awesome! |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The scariest thing you could have seen while testing an AE mission in beta: a room that looked completely empty, and as you walked in you suddenly heard a screeching sound coming from all around you in every direction. That was a mission that someone decided to use Ninjitsu in, and you were hearing thirty stalkers pop build up before hitting your team with triple strength uninterruptible assassin's strikes from stealth.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
If I can't have pet Titans, then the next best thing is Praetorians. My next choice will be CoS with a Master Illusionist and Illusionist. However, that is also too powerful. Shivans would be another possibility for me, but we already have the Shivan Shard. No other Primal mob gives me any interest.
There is also the other choice of picking something like Warriors. Therefore, the Primal choices can be either too powerful or too weak. The Praetorian mobs seems to be balanced compared to most Primal mobs.
As far as customization goes, I am willing for them to allow changes to lore pets, but after I20 hits and as longs as I am able to customize my henchmen. I am sick and tired of having only males as henchmen. It is just too creepy to think of Oni and Dark Servant as female. Allowing us to customize our Lore pets' powers can either make them overpowered or underpowered depending on our choices.
I know that my first very rare will be the Lore slot with my Seers since my Mastermind likes control powers.
The first step in being sane is to admit that you are insane.
Having a pet power is ok, though I don't think it will ever be my favorite Incarnate power. Having the pet tied to the game's lore is fine. I'm just sorry that it's limited specifically to Praetoria, and that there are so few options. If the Well has its fingers in Cimmerora, then why not make the minotaur an option, at least? I'd like to see many of the toughest foes available, to give us more choices.
Custom critters, on the other hand, would not have anything to do with the game's Lore, so although that would be fun as well, I don't mind it not being an option and I don't think it's reasonable to hope for.
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