Would You Be Willing to Delay the Lore Slot to Change the Pets?
By
Acemace,
Posted on: 2011-03-02 22:56 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
*shrugs* Sure. Its not like I care about the Lore Slot I want Interface, Judgment, and Destiny much more.
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I think this is wildly wrongheaded. Not of you for suggesting it, but as an outlook for the designers to take. You might be right, they might have taken it. If they have, I think they are wrongly pigeonholing features into demographic boundaries that do not actually exist.|
Originally Posted by Olantern
Now, you can argue that this represents a misunderstanding on the devs' part of how players can cross from one demographic to another, but I don't think it's a totally unreasonable mode of thinking. Yes, I'd be happier if some consideration had been given to granting me the ability to tailor Incarnate content to my characters in nonmechanical ways. But I can't really fault the devs for overlooking that option. They weren't expecting someone like me to use the Incarnate system in the first place.
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I am an unabashed power gamer. I play 50s all the time. I have heavily IO'd, ridiculously wealthy characters who have every performance accolade available. I already have a Rare Alpha slot on every 50, one character has two rares (I changed my mind) and half of them have the Very Rare. I attend Hamidon raids almost religiously, and I spend most evenings running multiple TFs. I am exactly the kind of player the Incarnate system caters to.
And I am displeased with this design decision.
Raid-favoring power-gamey people do not automatically dismiss everything concept or lore related as mere window dressing. It's quite possible to want both.
If the Devs have approached this with the philosophy that you have described then this thread should be a wake up call to them that the players do not wish them to do so. They should not dismiss things like that. The posts of dissent in this thread (meaning the ones agreeing with the OP, not the ones supporting the devs) are meant to express that displeasure in the hope that they will, if not change what they are doing now, at least change their approach in the future.
If we never tell them we don't like it, they will never know it might be valuable to do things differently.
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Red
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Meanwhile, on topic:
Yes, I would happily delay any or all of the entire Incarnate system to get more mythic followers than Joe Praetorian or his Roomba. The current implementation smacks of too little time being given to the art team to make decent pets and too much desire to tie everything Incarnate to the Going Rogue income-stream.
Do I think we'll actually get different pets?
No.
I distinctly recall the red-name response when the exact same b!tching erupted with regards to villainside epic powers. There was a substantial number of players who didn't want their powers to be tied to Lord Recluse's flunkies. They were told, as I'm 100% positive we will be told now with regard to Lore pets, that the content was optional and if they didn't like it, they didn't have to do it.
Years later, we've seen that attitude adjusted and no one is locked into any particular epic powerset.
You would hope the dev team would learn from past mistakes. But corners have to get cut somewhere, I suppose.
Statesmonkey Sez: Lighten up! It's a game, for Lincoln's sake!
Also: Six years of casual play begins to look an awful lot like one year of hardcore play.
If it were up to me, Lore would be the last slot released. Just don't love the idea of pets in principle -- particularly in an Incarnate context. (My mystically granted Incarnate power is to do the superhero equivalent of calling for help on a walkie-talkie? Epic.)
The pets' appearance almost doesn't matter. Any NPC you pick out of the game is gonna be objectionable to a good number of players, based on character concept. There just aren't that many summoner-type interactions in superhero storylines. Fully customizable pets would of course be best, but that ain't gonna happen -- and even if it were to happen eventually, I'd sure hope that the dev team works on making power-pool powers customizable first. Oh, for an Ice character without flaming hands!
Am I understanding correctly that the one and only level shift in Issue 20 is tied to Lore? Ugh. 
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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My understanding is that all of the slots in I20 provide a level shift, but one that will only be effective in incarnate content. I would assume that in the next round of incarnate content we will start seeing enemies with their own level shifts to make it so that a certain amount of incarnate progression is required.
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Originally Posted by Obitus
Am I understanding correctly that the one and only level shift in Issue 20 is tied to Lore? Ugh.
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I'm fine with the Well, it fits the milieu of supers as defined with CoX. Then Praetoria offers an immediate path to apply our new found gifts.
Also, fine (though I do understand the kneejerk "story nazi" perspective against it).
However, I dislike the Lore slot as it has been presented. It makes no sense and is 'immersion breaking' for me. It contradicts my understanding of the presentation of the Incarnate path the game has set before me. If the Well provides the power... why do I gain this one ability seemingly from Praetoria?
Is it worth delaying the whole thing? No. Too much is relying on these introductions for too many. My opinions and hang ups should not limit the excitement and opportunity for everyone else.
But then again, the introduction of Incarnates and the seeming direction of all this 'wonderful end game' is leading me to play less and less anyway (the opposite of my expectations), so maybe I'm just a curmudgeon.
(hmmm, I wonder if that name is available...)
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Vanysh - Eldrytch
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Just chiming in with a "no".
Perhaps I'm too jaded from villain epic pets, of which there are also 4, that I'm used to 4 options, none of which are terribly appealing to me.
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I was actually thinking the very same thing the other day. Or rather, I was thinking that they should be one of the customizable options.|
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
My suggestion -- use the floating swords from the Apex TF. They're reasonably fantastical, and can be retconned by the player as magic, tech, or their own telekinetic mutant powers.
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I was also thinking the other day that someone was taking notes back in I14 beta: just about everything I tried to do in the AE during testing, most of which was *removed from the AE* as being exploitive, is showing up as featured content one after the other. Clones. Continuous triggered ambushes. Heck, does anyone remember when I made the mission with the Dancing Swords protecting the Boss that were designed to attack you and you couldn't target them back, because they still had the untargetable attribute so only untargeted AoEs could defeat them?
Mark my words: in Issue 21 the Praetorian Hamidon is going to invade Primal Earth and take on our Hamidon.
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My solution to this would have been to make the pets completely new and relatively abstract. A manifestation of the Well in the form of something that looks more like a Phantasm or a Wisp. Is that going to chafe against some characters concepts? Definitely. I think it would chap less hides than making them Praetoreans, though.
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Originally Posted by Obitus
The pets' appearance almost doesn't matter. Any NPC you pick out of the game is gonna be objectionable to a good number of players, based on character concept. There just aren't that many summoner-type interactions in superhero storylines. Fully customizable pets would of course be best, but that ain't gonna happen
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Dunno if it's been pointed out, but I find myself disliking the Lore slot for gameplay reasons as well as story reasons. With full Leagues of characters running around, summoning that many Praetorian units...against enemy Praetorian units, I suspect that it will add to confusion and battlefield clutter during raids/TFs/whatever.
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Absolutely! I meant those as the five paths to pick, not that they're Origin-locked. It just gives people the chance to pick some "generic" pets which aren't anything-themed.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
I'd go along with this only if we got to pick outside our origin or change our origin. I want robots! Not Warworks though, the only ones that I still think are cool are the War Walkers and they're too big to be practical as pets.
Magic could be "spirits" of some kind, to keep with the humanoid theme. Zombies, meh. Twisted abominations resulting from the fateful words "God shmod, I want my monkeyman!" are way cooler than zombies, but rather limited concept-wise. |
And I agree, the designs should all be originals (and hopefully at least re-colourable via the powers tailor interface).
Of course, if this redesign would delay the rest of the Incarnate slots, i still say go ahead with what we've got!
Pets? Really? There's a reason I don't play MM.
This is sounding more and more "grindy" to me. The entire concept of incarnates is just one big grind. I can't remember the last time I ran through a story arc, satisfied with it's conclusion and what it meant to my character. That's my fault for getting caught up in the must-have-shards-NAO! mentality.
Getting threads and going on raids just seems more of the same grind. Thankfully, I can ignore or join that as I please. But, I know...I just know I'll be compelled to get all the incarnate slots for at least one or two of my fifties. But, now with Pets being the Lore slot, I think I can resist that compulsion.
So...er...thanks?
How do pets = grind? I get how raids = grind and XP = grind, but not how pets = grind.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
Oh, you mean on the forums? My target: [name redacted due to forum regs]
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I hate to say it UberGuy, but you might have an uphill battle convincing people of this. I hope you can, because I want both, but the AE "rewards vs story" debate indicated to me that some people love their neat little categories too much to let them go.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Raid-favoring power-gamey people do not automatically dismiss everything concept or lore related as mere window dressing. It's quite possible to want both.
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Originally Posted by Obitus
Am I understanding correctly that the one and only level shift in Issue 20 is tied to Lore? Ugh.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I was also thinking the other day that someone was taking notes back in I14 beta: just about everything I tried to do in the AE during testing, most of which was *removed from the AE* as being exploitive, is showing up as featured content one after the other. Clones. Continuous triggered ambushes.
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True story. This is entirely my fault, but during I14 beta I made three arcs to test in three different directions. I made my goofy Bug Hunt arc just to play around, and that eventually evolved into that ... thing. I made the Scrapper Challenge arc to push the envelope on custom critter design, and look for mechanical AI and powers exploits. And I made on actual story arc that tested my ability to actually use the AE as intended, to tell a story, called "Secret Weapons." I picked an actual story that I wanted to tell.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Aha! Now who do we blame for the Well of the Furies nonsense?
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I shouldn't have done that. Patch after patch broke it, then I fixed it, then it broke again. Eventually I reached my limit and gave up on it. I fixed it one last time when I14 released, and then it broke *again* and I just removed the broken map and shortened it, from its original five mission length to its launch four mission length to its current three mission length.
Periodically, I try to go back and fix it up: put it back to what it was in Beta and also improve it using the improvements since then and also some of the original restrictions have been relaxed that originally hurt it - ambush count for example. But I find I can't. I'm actually still a little bit bitter over the process, even though as I said its my fault for using something I care about in a beta. I'm never making that mistake again. Every few months I tweak it a little here and a little there, hoping that I can eventually get over it, so I can return to it.
See, that arc was supposed to be the first in a sequence of three or four arcs at least, and if I can't fix it, neither can I write any of the others in sequence. But I can tell you what the arc was intended to address. Two things: first, its a veiled retelling of one of my alt's origin stories, but with my own character sidelined and the focus on the player.
The second theme it was supposed to address? Reconciling all of the problems with Origin of Power. Not making that up: Secret Weapons has basically been in the AE since beta and since launch, and you can see hints that this is where its supposed to go in that arc. Before Incarnates and the Well of Furies was a rumor of a rumor, I had an idea of how to supersede Origin of Power with something better. I still want to write that one day, eventually, because in terms of overall script outline and concept, its already done.
On the other hand, I would prefer it if you blamed Dr. Aeon. It was fearghas that got all those dev choices, not me.
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Hey Eva, back in Issue 5, after Croatoa was released, I requested a Praetorian Earth zone.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Aha! Now who do we blame for the Well of the Furies nonsense?
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*runs*
Please try my custom mission arcs!
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Cool. I can always watch giant monsters duking it out.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Mark my words: in Issue 21 the Praetorian Hamidon is going to invade Primal Earth and take on our Hamidon.
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Positron: "There are no bugs [in City of Heroes], just varying degrees of features."
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Pets don't equal grind. The whole conversation had me thinking about the incarnate system as a whole and how I've been feeling when I log in to play. But, I'm compelled to grind shards and notices to save up for the great new powers and abilities on their way.|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
How do pets = grind? I get how raids = grind and XP = grind, but not how pets = grind.
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Pets as a reward for said grind doesn't do it for me. Knowing that this is the reward will help me back away from feeling I have to do the WST and tons of shardy TF's. End of story.
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Originally Posted by Chrysame
Pets don't equal grind. The whole conversation had me thinking about the incarnate system as a whole and how I've been feeling when I log in to play. But, I'm compelled to grind shards and notices to save up for the great new powers and abilities on their way.
Pets as a reward for said grind doesn't do it for me. Knowing that this is the reward will help me back away from feeling I have to do the WST and tons of shardy TF's. End of story. |
Um...they're 1 of 10 slots. They're not *the* reward, they're *a* reward.
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Okay, it's ONE reward I'm not interested in and so I can avoid the Lore grindy grind. Happy now?
Well, as long as you're shaking the notion that the Incarnate system is mandatory, it's not a bad thing.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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Thanks. That's the idea.
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Originally Posted by Bosstone
Well, as long as you're shaking the notion that the Incarnate system is mandatory, it's not a bad thing.
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Yes, that pretty much sums up most people's experiences. I'm kinda lucky in that it takes me forever to finish an arc, so I don't have time to get too attached to anything before it breaks beyond repair.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I shouldn't have done that. Patch after patch broke it, then I fixed it, then it broke again. Eventually I reached my limit and gave up on it. I fixed it one last time when I14 released, and then it broke *again* and I just removed the broken map and shortened it, from its original five mission length to its launch four mission length to its current three mission length.
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| On the other hand, I would prefer it if you blamed Dr. Aeon. It was fearghas that got all those dev choices, not me. |
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Originally Posted by Liquid
Hey Eva, back in Issue 5, after Croatoa was released, I requested a Praetorian Earth zone.
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Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
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I think of late the devs have been so busy they just don't have as much time for communication as they used to. Even I have extreme difficulty getting to anyone by any means. The Issue 18-19-20 cycle has been the tightest I've ever seen in seven years.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Ah, yes, there has been plenty of Dr. Aeon blaming going around the AE forums and global channel. I'm not at all surprised he wants nothing to do with us anymore, although I somewhat think he wanted nothing to do with "us" to begin with, and was more interested in interacting with the people who weren't regular AE users and trying to get them to use it. When that didn't work, he stopped posting entirely.
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About a year ago I was talking to Castle about a specific issue and he told me at one point that he would have to table that because he was going to be in meetings all day for the next two days. And I was like "wouldn't you run out of people to even meet with after a day and a half?" The process of MMO development is really not like how I think most people picture it, where most of the work involves sitting at a computer doing design stuff. And not just at Paragon Studios. Sometimes I think MMO developers have to specifically schedule time on Tuesday to type a "3" on their keyboards.
Although, fearghas was an extremely light poster before he Ascended, so I don't know how thick a skin he has either. If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" And then I would post "First after me, ha ha ha!" And then I would dare the mods to ban a red name by face-palming everyone. You wouldn't be *able* to shut me up.
Of course, I do have this other career I can fall back on.
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I want to know when we're gonna get our Incarnate powers tray. I need another one.
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