What do you like about the Current CoH PvP Experience
By
Alpha_Zulu,
Posted on: 2011-02-28 23:07 in Everything about PvP
I like that you can get special drops from PvP even though I think the drop rate is absurdly low.
Quote:
I should point out that no number is the "correct number" because Elusivity doesn't work that way. I should know. The correct thing to do for every defense set is to take their current defenses, split them up by some ratio (say, 50/50), convert one part into Elusivity and readjust the reamining defense (by a specific formula that preserves the combined strength of the two), and doing that individually for every +Def defense set and buffing set. The net result is that against a foe with no tohit buffs, all defensive sets would be just as strong as when they started (factoring out DR for now). Against foes with significant tohit buffs, those tohit buffs would be weakened almost as if the target was resisting them, but they would still have an effect stronger than accuracy. Which was the whole intent to begin with.|
Originally Posted by LuxunS
1. Elusivity: Most defense builds were destroyed in pre-i13 PvP. When Elusivity was at 30% it was too powerful, but at 10% it isn't quite enough. A 20% middle ground would be a great step. I did an analysis on this a while back, it can be found here. http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=196688
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If you did that right, you almost wouldn't need DR for either defense or tohit: they'd be set to only affect very high values, not the moderate values that currently get clipped. The only question is what the tuning parameter should be that sets what fraction of defense is "resistant" to hit buffs for everybody.
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I like that you can go afk in a pvp zone for hours on end because noone is in them and farm your alt. accounts to get pvp recipes to sell to make billions in influence!
You asked what I liked about pvp...
I'll point out that I rarely PvP. I like the idea of it, but have never been satisfied with any incarnation of it enough to really get involved.
That said, I have enjoyed previous incarnations more than this one.
What I like about current PvP (with justifiers)
Like many others have said the seperation of PvE and PvP systems was a great change, but now the PvP system is so different from the PvE, It's daunting and a little undesirable to want to bother learning the intricacies (at least to me). I play to have fun, not crunch numbers or learn to game systems.
Unlike many others, I like the idea of Travel Supression. However this was because I got really tired of previous PvP incarnations promoting "invisible Mexican jumping bean syndrome". PvP full of stealthed, super-speed, super-jumping spikers wasn't my idea of fun, and kind of antithetical to epic super hero/villain face-offs I was hoping for. However, I also get that fast is fun for PvP. It's current incarnation is clunky and the stop/go of it really is disconcerting. Perhaps if there were caps that were constant though consistent, to allow for more dynamic PvP movement? There's got to be a middle ground somewhere.
The -range in Taunt. Nothing else to really say here, though I'd love to see a few other powers in melee sets get similar treatment in the field of PvP.
I like how mez works as a less binary component, but am not crazy about the toggle supression (though I understand the damage toggles and the like de-toggling). However, I feel it's a little overboard though with the stop/go (much like travel supression). Maybe they could last longer or be more effective overall in exchange for not supressing toggles (Tanks can stand and take it longer, Buffers can continue to help their teammates while they're trying to free you, though in a highly reduced capacity; i.e. can't individually buff, but stay in the heal/def/resist/stealth/whatever area).
I can't argue the numbers or details, but I know what 'feel' I'm looking for when I PvP, and while some iterations are close, this game hasn't hit on it just yet.
I see folks say they want "fast" a lot. Maybe the word "dynamic" will have a greater impact based on what I think I'd want, and what it seems most folks really desire?
Anyway, for what it's worth...
Lyc~ the "had to stick his nose in it and say something" werewolf...
Edit: Re-reading this it sounds very melee-centric. It's not intended to be. While my main hero is a Scrapper, the best times I've had in PvP was playing Blasters and my FF Defender. Each of which would benefit from these changes as well. I never took my MM in there just to see how he flies, but I bet he'd like my suggestions too.
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
Quote:
As per my understanding, elusivity was your idea, and subsequently I bow to your knowledge of how it was proposed and should have been implemented. My number was simply suggested as it would bring the damage mitigation of defenses more in line with those of resistances. Also, it is a change that developers might be willing to make, as the value has already been changed in the past; it would be less work that completely redoing the mechanic as you suggest. Ideally your proposal seems a much better route, but I'd imagine would require more development time invested.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I should point out that no number is the "correct number" because Elusivity doesn't work that way. I should know. The correct thing to do for every defense set is to take their current defenses, split them up by some ratio (say, 50/50), convert one part into Elusivity and readjust the reamining defense (by a specific formula that preserves the combined strength of the two), and doing that individually for every +Def defense set and buffing set. The net result is that against a foe with no tohit buffs, all defensive sets would be just as strong as when they started (factoring out DR for now). Against foes with significant tohit buffs, those tohit buffs would be weakened almost as if the target was resisting them, but they would still have an effect stronger than accuracy. Which was the whole intent to begin with.
If you did that right, you almost wouldn't need DR for either defense or tohit: they'd be set to only affect very high values, not the moderate values that currently get clipped. The only question is what the tuning parameter should be that sets what fraction of defense is "resistant" to hit buffs for everybody. |
I LIEK HOW PPP IS FUN TO FITE KTHNX
e
Quote:
Without sidetracking too far into a balance discussion, there's a presumption that, say, the defenses in SR are already balanced against the def/res/+health of Invuln for the case of zero tohit buff, because if that wasn't true one of them would already be broken in PvE and have to be fixed. So assuming that SR and Invuln (and Regen and DA and EA and El and Ice and...) are balanced in PvE, the only question is how to deal with the fact that in PvE, players aren't morons and won't fight with one hand tied behind their backs by giving up tohit buffs like critters are designed to do (sometimes, although increasingly they are wising up also). The goal is - was - to soften those without nullifying them so the players that use them don't think they are worthless, but the players with defense don't think those are worthless either. And the way to do that is to essentially take the defense sets, and make a portion - but not all - of their defenses essentially resistant to tohit buffs (reducing them not to zero effect but making them only as strong as accuracy). So tohit buffs do some damage, but not total annihilation.|
Originally Posted by LuxunS
As per my understanding, elusivity was your idea, and subsequently I bow to your knowledge of how it was proposed and should have been implemented. My number was simply suggested as it would bring the damage mitigation of defenses more in line with those of resistances.
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To make defense bend but not break, but also not any stronger than it already is, you have to essentially do what I mentioned above: add Elusivity but take back defense to even it out. That's what would be fair to both sides: the attacker and the defender. Adding any Elu without taking defense back would basically be making defense sets stronger, and by the time you add enough Elu to make a difference you've also buffed defense sets too high. That was the problem with the original 30% Elu. The converse problem exists with the current 10% Elu. I don't think 20% is a goldilocks number. I think its equally likely its both too weak against tohit buffs *and* too strong outside of them, meaning its only reasonable against the one guy with coincidentally the right amount of them.
Just to try to stay vaguely on topic, one thing I believe is that I've always felt the better PvP experiences were ones in which there was some semblance of fairness. That fairness did not need to be equality: if you're better than me, you should kill me most of the time. But if you're able to defeat me because of a mechanical imbalance that I can only remedy by making a special PvP toon that lacks exploitable failings, then PvP isn't about my character anymore. Its about me making a throwaway alt specifically for PvP.
For some people, PvP is a player vs player activity only. The characters are just generic playing pieces. They are really weapons, not characters. And that's fine: I have no problem with that. But I think the problem is that to get good cross-over enjoyment from PvE players that invest time and energy into characters, whether they are role players or just emotionally invested in their alts, PvP has to have some way to involve the characters that players want to play. It cannot *solely* be about crafting the perfect PvP toon. There is a place for that among the the people who want to do that. But just like many players think crafting their build from level 1 in Mids sucks the fun out of it, I think many people think making a special PvP toon sucks the fun out of it. For me, I want to PvP and win or lose with the characters I've played with for years.
That's what I meant earlier when I said mechanical issues should be corrected only when they hurt people's perceptions of PvP enough to make them reluctant to participate. You'd have to be practically nuts to venture into PvP combat with a melee defense character. Unless you were one of those fight-in-Elude-then-run-away people. That sort of situation has to be avoided whenever possible. But it has to be done carefully, so that in fixing one thing you don't break other things and reduce the enjoyment of the game for everyone else. That's counterproductive.
As an aside, I was discussing this with another player and we got on the subject of mini-games which involved both a place for the hardcore PvPers to battle it out, and PvE players to not face other players *directly* but still get involved. A spitballed idea was a zone with an above ground free for all PvP area and a below ground faction-separated area where PvE players could perform mini-game tasks that would assist their side battling above ground. They could defeat PvE critters in tunnels and repair turrets that would rise up and assist their side, for example, or intercept PvE drones sent by the opposite side to disrupt their side. This could be extended conceptually to low grade PvP areas where more "casual" PvPers could engage in combat without automatically being obliterated by the top combatants. This could be enforced by a reward system that encouraged good PvPers to go after other good PvPers in the high-reward areas, while the lesser PvPers would go after lesser PvPes in areas that simply had degraded rewards.
Of course, that is a completely off the cuff idea, but I thought it had promise, because it could tap the many different ways people enjoy different forms of player vs player engagements: indirect, casually direct, and hardcore, and in settings where the rewards would scale with the skill level of the players, encouraging them to get better but not forcing them to do so.
It goes without saying this sort of thing only works if you can get enough players to buy in and participate.
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What i like about the current PvP experience... The only thing that comes to mind is that the values of things like DR and Elusivity can be easily adjusted, and other changes/"features" of the current PvP system can be easily tweaked or removed with the system now in place. This raises the possibility of making PvP closer to the current PvE experience and previous PvP experience.
Wait, that's i like about the current PvP systems and not what i like about the current CoH PvP experience that uses those systems. Damnit!
Uh...
well...
i like that we can move around and attack other players and critters in the PvP zones. Yup. That part of the experience is fun.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
hmmm, I like that PvP recipes drop from battling other players... and that's about it.
Quote:
We can understand that, at least most of us. And look forward to hearing the feedback. I think what I'm getting from the collective posts is that we just want an honest lay out from the Development standpoint of what the intentions, and goals for PVP are going forward. It seems like the last time we got that the bringer of those honest intentions coincidently resigned 8 days later.|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
Popping in here to let you know that I'm still reading and digesting this feedback. I'll be out of the office all day today and tomorrow at the Games Developer Conference, so I won't be able to respond.
I do plan on spending some time this weekend reviewing the thread and having discussion with you about it. Unfortunately this week is absolutely insanely busy. Thanks to everyone for the continued constructive discussion and feedback and I'll speak with you again soon. - Z |
-Derek
Quote:
That is actually a good idea for pvp - a universal rep system. The higher the rep of the player the more likely a drop. You could not base it strictly on kills or at least weight it evenly to teams where buffers are viable and include arena matches and zones.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Without sidetracking too far into a balance discussion, there's a presumption that, say, the defenses in SR are already balanced against the def/res/+health of Invuln for the case of zero tohit buff, because if that wasn't true one of them would already be broken in PvE and have to be fixed. So assuming that SR and Invuln (and Regen and DA and EA and El and Ice and...) are balanced in PvE, the only question is how to deal with the fact that in PvE, players aren't morons and won't fight with one hand tied behind their backs by giving up tohit buffs like critters are designed to do (sometimes, although increasingly they are wising up also). The goal is - was - to soften those without nullifying them so the players that use them don't think they are worthless, but the players with defense don't think those are worthless either. And the way to do that is to essentially take the defense sets, and make a portion - but not all - of their defenses essentially resistant to tohit buffs (reducing them not to zero effect but making them only as strong as accuracy). So tohit buffs do some damage, but not total annihilation.
To make defense bend but not break, but also not any stronger than it already is, you have to essentially do what I mentioned above: add Elusivity but take back defense to even it out. That's what would be fair to both sides: the attacker and the defender. Adding any Elu without taking defense back would basically be making defense sets stronger, and by the time you add enough Elu to make a difference you've also buffed defense sets too high. That was the problem with the original 30% Elu. The converse problem exists with the current 10% Elu. I don't think 20% is a goldilocks number. I think its equally likely its both too weak against tohit buffs *and* too strong outside of them, meaning its only reasonable against the one guy with coincidentally the right amount of them. Just to try to stay vaguely on topic, one thing I believe is that I've always felt the better PvP experiences were ones in which there was some semblance of fairness. That fairness did not need to be equality: if you're better than me, you should kill me most of the time. But if you're able to defeat me because of a mechanical imbalance that I can only remedy by making a special PvP toon that lacks exploitable failings, then PvP isn't about my character anymore. Its about me making a throwaway alt specifically for PvP. For some people, PvP is a player vs player activity only. The characters are just generic playing pieces. They are really weapons, not characters. And that's fine: I have no problem with that. But I think the problem is that to get good cross-over enjoyment from PvE players that invest time and energy into characters, whether they are role players or just emotionally invested in their alts, PvP has to have some way to involve the characters that players want to play. It cannot *solely* be about crafting the perfect PvP toon. There is a place for that among the the people who want to do that. But just like many players think crafting their build from level 1 in Mids sucks the fun out of it, I think many people think making a special PvP toon sucks the fun out of it. For me, I want to PvP and win or lose with the characters I've played with for years. That's what I meant earlier when I said mechanical issues should be corrected only when they hurt people's perceptions of PvP enough to make them reluctant to participate. You'd have to be practically nuts to venture into PvP combat with a melee defense character. Unless you were one of those fight-in-Elude-then-run-away people. That sort of situation has to be avoided whenever possible. But it has to be done carefully, so that in fixing one thing you don't break other things and reduce the enjoyment of the game for everyone else. That's counterproductive. As an aside, I was discussing this with another player and we got on the subject of mini-games which involved both a place for the hardcore PvPers to battle it out, and PvE players to not face other players *directly* but still get involved. A spitballed idea was a zone with an above ground free for all PvP area and a below ground faction-separated area where PvE players could perform mini-game tasks that would assist their side battling above ground. They could defeat PvE critters in tunnels and repair turrets that would rise up and assist their side, for example, or intercept PvE drones sent by the opposite side to disrupt their side. This could be extended conceptually to low grade PvP areas where more "casual" PvPers could engage in combat without automatically being obliterated by the top combatants. This could be enforced by a reward system that encouraged good PvPers to go after other good PvPers in the high-reward areas, while the lesser PvPers would go after lesser PvPes in areas that simply had degraded rewards. Of course, that is a completely off the cuff idea, but I thought it had promise, because it could tap the many different ways people enjoy different forms of player vs player engagements: indirect, casually direct, and hardcore, and in settings where the rewards would scale with the skill level of the players, encouraging them to get better but not forcing them to do so. It goes without saying this sort of thing only works if you can get enough players to buy in and participate. |
You could even provide a negative for farming say a noob comes to rv with 0 rep, rather than not reward rep for defeating him too soon it can remove your rep. The more diverse (as in not the same guy over and over) high rep toons you defeat the more drops you could get and a greater chance for a proc say than an end/recharge...Or you can reward merits and we can buy the stuff.
As far as PvP gos now, I don't enjoy it at all.
Back before the changes, I used to love Sirens Call's hot spots, Leading a Team of NPC's and being the focal point of the battle was onlike anything else in the game.
Farming the Turrets in RV and fighting off other players while doing so also occupied many enjoyable hours.
If I had my way, the Game would just revert the PvP rules to the current PvE system, sure, one on one battle, might be very unbalanced in some match-ups , but, like in the comics, Black Panther isn't gonna beat Thor.
-Justice server-50's
RedSide Corrupter-6::Brute-3::Veat-3:: MM-1:: Dom-1
Blueside Tank-1:: Blaster-1::Scrapper-1
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I was actually thinking about a PvP zone coloring system. In the red zone you get higher rewards, in the yellow zone lower rewards, and in the green zone the lowest rewards. We won't have to force players into a particular zone based on skill, because I would think the players would do that automatically. The best players will hang out in the red zone where the best rewards for a kill drop. And that means the weaker players won't hang out there because they will just die. Or they will hang out there and get good enough to join them. Either way, the rewards will separate players by risk tolerance. Sure, a top player can eviscerate a low player in the green zone, but they won't get anything much for doing so. Killing a medium player in the yellow zone would generate much better rewards, but still nowhere as good as actually not sandbagging it and going after their equals in the red zone.|
Originally Posted by Jaso
That is actually a good idea for pvp - a universal rep system. The higher the rep of the player the more likely a drop. You could not base it strictly on kills or at least weight it evenly to teams where buffers are viable and include arena matches and zones.
You could even provide a negative for farming say a noob comes to rv with 0 rep, rather than not reward rep for defeating him too soon it can remove your rep. The more diverse (as in not the same guy over and over) high rep toons you defeat the more drops you could get and a greater chance for a proc say than an end/recharge...Or you can reward merits and we can buy the stuff. |
*On top of that* we could layer a universal rep system like you mention to ensure that over and above that, a high end player that decides to forgo rewards and attack weak PvPers in the green zone doesn't just forgo better rewards, but is actually penalized in some fashion, like with negative rep.
To make this work, the rewards in the red zone have to be really good. And to make that work, there has to be much better anti-farming code. And I have a pretty good idea how to do.
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Quote:
Didn't know this was a suggestion thread too.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I was actually thinking about a PvP zone coloring system. In the red zone you get higher rewards, in the yellow zone lower rewards, and in the green zone the lowest rewards. We won't have to force players into a particular zone based on skill, because I would think the players would do that automatically. The best players will hang out in the red zone where the best rewards for a kill drop. And that means the weaker players won't hang out there because they will just die. Or they will hang out there and get good enough to join them. Either way, the rewards will separate players by risk tolerance. Sure, a top player can eviscerate a low player in the green zone, but they won't get anything much for doing so. Killing a medium player in the yellow zone would generate much better rewards, but still nowhere as good as actually not sandbagging it and going after their equals in the red zone.
*On top of that* we could layer a universal rep system like you mention to ensure that over and above that, a high end player that decides to forgo rewards and attack weak PvPers in the green zone doesn't just forgo better rewards, but is actually penalized in some fashion, like with negative rep. To make this work, the rewards in the red zone have to be really good. And to make that work, there has to be much better anti-farming code. And I have a pretty good idea how to do. |
PvP ganking has been a time honoured tradition regardless of which game it was, so I'd rather see low rep players being buffed (+ handicapped) in the green zones so they are harder to kill and have more chances to get away. A pure rewards system based on rep won't stop someone from rampaging on noobs.
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It isn't. I just can't help thinking about what I like and dislike without translating it into more of the same by way of illustration. Disregard if you feel it derails the primary point of the thread.
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Originally Posted by PumBumbler
Didn't know this was a suggestion thread too.
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This thread has no point
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
If there's anything I would like about it, the combination of movement suppression and the way mez protection doesn't exist ensured I never found them out.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
actually I have a lame suggestion. when you hit 400 rep in pvp zones you should get a pvp recipe 
or any reward not just a badge 
and then after you get it rep drops down to 0 and you have to do this all over again 
Quote:
I'm all for anti-farming code but farming is one of the few outlets for PvPIOs. They are incredibly scarce and even moreso in matches where people actually try to evade death. Not sure how this can be fixed outside a Merit system at some point.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
To make this work, the rewards in the red zone have to be really good. And to make that work, there has to be much better anti-farming code. And I have a pretty good idea how to do. |
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
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Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
Zone
1. I like how we dont get detoggled when held
2. I like how heroes and villian AT's are on both sides now
3. I like PvP IO drops (I wish they dropped more)
Arena
1. I like how we can select the match settings
2. (Same as above)
P.S. My Dislikes out weigh my like, but that is for another thread 
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Black Katipo Arachnos Widowlvl 50+++ - Fortunata Build / Night Widow Build
I agree with what Fiery, Macskull, LuxunS, Posma, Philly Girl, and Mr. Liberty....Like that DR helps balance AT's, Heal Decay in it's current form is a bit much and perhaps a tad to harsh, I like the base resists you get, etc. Travel Suppression is fantastic too...it would be horribly unbalanced if folks could peg you without any movement penalty non stop.
It would be nice (and I know they're meant to be ultra-rare) if the PvP drop rate was adjusted somewhat....just tossing it out there.
Thanks for asking!
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Lol??? No. Travel Suppression is fantastic? Heal decay is a bit much? DR helps balance because base resists are dumb. Who is this kid? Get him out of here.
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Originally Posted by TheXor
I agree with what Fiery, Macskull, LuxunS, Posma, Philly Girl, and Mr. Liberty....Like that DR helps balance AT's, Heal Decay in it's current form is a bit much and perhaps a tad to harsh, I like the base resists you get, etc. Travel Suppression is fantastic too...it would be horribly unbalanced if folks could peg you without any movement penalty non stop.
It would be nice (and I know they're meant to be ultra-rare) if the PvP drop rate was adjusted somewhat....just tossing it out there. Thanks for asking! |
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No. Just wait until I stop by.
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
Speaking on my own opinion of the Current CoX PvP,
I would say that TS is extremely bad, HD is extremely bad, DR is extremely bad, Only reason we leave it on during Arena matches for KBs / 1v1-8v8s is becuz the resist gobal actually make certain ATs all most impossible to kill, if u have a healer with them. Try this take 3 Blasters and put them in a 3v1 all @ the same time vs 1 Corr/Defender with a Self heal and c if u could kill them or c how long it takes u to kill them. Speaking of the resist gobal stuff, i honestly say that for the most part I personally dont like it though i can kind of c why the devs before U put it in. Also I miss the old mez system personally, U use to actually have to bring BFs instead of like today, But I can understand leaving some of the New Mez System stuff alone jus becuz Yes not having ur self-toggles drop can be helpful. Unlike the old system tho were u would actually have to manage ur insp instead of bringing full tray of greens. Speaking of insp managment, i13 took away the different insp u could actually use to make a difference, think of about it who Red Rushes anymore? Keeping a breakfree or two on u @ all times u dont get mez'd? only greens/blues being used mostly now a days, unless u 1v1 and sometimes u can use yellows to actually do something vs ppl that do alot of -tohit. BreakFrees / Purples / Organes completely useless most times. Also It dumbed down the different types of ATs u could actually bring to do something, other then jus bringing 2 healers / 6 blasters or 2 healers / 1 rad 5 blasters. What happened to the Variety?!
Things I like about the Current CoX PvP System:
1. The 30 second or less buff timer @ the start of the match.
2. Picking ur own map that u or any1 esle wants.
3. Selecting the type of Insp u can bring/use.
4. The lil phase timer on u when u respawn.
5. PvP IOs.
Artic and the Chillz - Champion PvP League
Exile - Champion PvPEC 3v3-5v5 League
Exile - Freedom 5v5 PvP League 2012
Exile - Freedumb PvP League 2011
Exile - CAPE PvP League
In the Arena with TS & HD disabled, thats all...