What do you like about the Current CoH PvP Experience
By
Alpha_Zulu,
Posted on: 2011-02-28 23:07 in Everything about PvP
I used to like going to the zones to pvp. Then when i13 hit I quit going all together. My main was an empath and when every heal or buff caused travel supression, it became pretty unplayable. I was totally baffled by the logic that a healing aura would supress my travel from toons with range, as well as decay my heals to the point I cannot survive without an escape power up, which is on a no phase timer. I think it is ridiculous that flares is a must have..FLARES!!! lol.
There seems to be no logic to anything. Is it animation time = dmg because Bitter Freeze Ray should do 1000 pts of dmg.
I even liked doing kickballs and started to get interested in test pvp but all that went away. All the test teams left pretty much after i13.
So what do I like about pvp in the game now? nothing.
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I realize this is off-topic, but I'd like to raise a point here: inspirations are balanced in that everyone has access to them, and that as implemented they allow for deficits in builds to be overcome or for an otherwise less balanced encounter to become more balanced. I think one of the nastier side effects of DR was reducing the usefulness and effectiveness of inspirations - inspiration management was considered a skill prior to I13 because if you didn't predict your opponent and bring inspirations accordingly you'd end up hurting. These days you'll more often than not see people bringing trays full of greens or blues (if fighting a Therm) because that's all that's really effective.
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Originally Posted by gameboy1234
It occurred to me while reading the above that if the solution to any problem in PVP is "bring inspirations" then it might be worth it to see what PVP looks like without any Inspirations at all. Achieving balance would be easier, I think, if Inspirations weren't there to throw a wrench in the works.
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@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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Hey those tray full of EoEs are serious business.
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Originally Posted by macskull
see people bringing trays full of greens or blues (if fighting a Therm) because that's all that's really effective.
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I would be lying if I said nothing. However I need to preface mechanics vs QOL. Just a note, my lists have dueling in mind. |
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
What aspects PvP currently implemented in CoH do you like? If the answer is nothing, then simply state "nothing". |
Mechanics
Patron and Ancillary Shields + tough giving resistance to all (Def to all for specific patron/Ancillary Shields)
Damage based on activation time sans AOE powers
Psy Resists built into Armor sets.
Taunt -75% range
QOL
Selectable Arena Maps
Customizable Arena Options
PvP IO's
I like the idea of PvP IO's however the system that is used to dispense them is a real problem. While this thread is not for discussing what we do not like, I need to qualify my likes and dislikes with PvP IO's to give an accurate statement.
IO's based on PvP is a great thing, being able to get PvP Io's while not PvPing is a problem. The PvP IO drop rate is concerning. I really sure how to fix it, however a more engaging system would be a start.
Overall there are only a few things I like about post I-13 PvP.
Ice
damage-type standarization (epic shield changes) was the first step in dumbing down team pvp. especially after psi-resists could be achieved by bringing in forts into a match (which is how team emo got that win against ajax's team that cant be bet in tpvpl season 2).
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cool kids like criticalkat take three issues to stop bringing break frees into 8v8s.
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Originally Posted by macskull
I realize this is off-topic, but I'd like to raise a point here: inspirations are balanced in that everyone has access to them, and that as implemented they allow for deficits in builds to be overcome or for an otherwise less balanced encounter to become more balanced. I think one of the nastier side effects of DR was reducing the usefulness and effectiveness of inspirations - inspiration management was considered a skill prior to I13 because if you didn't predict your opponent and bring inspirations accordingly you'd end up hurting. These days you'll more often than not see people bringing trays full of greens or blues (if fighting a Therm) because that's all that's really effective.
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when I say I like that change I'm referring generally to dueling situations, not team stuff. Outside of psi the damage type wasn't that big a deal on either the hero or villain ladder since heroes had Sonic and vills had Sonic and Therm.
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Originally Posted by blaackbarrier
damage-type standarization (epic shield changes) was the first step in dumbing down team pvp. especially after psi-resists could be achieved by bringing in forts into a match (which is how team emo got that win against ajax's team that cant be bet in tpvpl season 2).
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@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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Originally Posted by macskull
when I say I like that change I'm referring generally to dueling situations, not team stuff. Outside of psi the damage type wasn't that big a deal on either the hero or villain ladder since heroes had Sonic and vills had Sonic and Therm.
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Thats were a thread like this gets in trouble. We have to qualify a scenario or specific activity with our likes and dislikes. I am with you Mac, I was thinking primarily duels, and Zone PvP. 8v8's really shouldn't allow resist shields or psy resist built into shields that they don't go with.
Ice
Preface: rarely play PvP, felt it was too binary and I'm not good at it.
I like that there are different zones with different styles (particularly WB as a free-for-all, seems like there should be a ffa/coop pvp zone where solo you could attack anyone, but teams could be composed of both factions and then they are immune to their own team's attacks).
I like that there are unique rewards to pvp and that those rewards are in some way customized a little bit for the pvp zones (i.e., work differently in pve and pvp).
I like that pve and pvp powers have been delinked to some extent. I used to find it very frustrating that changes to balance pvp affected pve. In that regard, the binary nature of travel suppression still aggravates me and it seems that it was not an issue until pvp.
I like the zone tasks, like WB nukes and BB shivans. I don't ever use Siren's these days.
I like that there was an attempt to balance with DR. I think there should've been some effort to continue to tweak, balance, and manage these changes. Instead, it appears that someone made changes and never looked back or got fired years ago and no one wants to touch the code (feels the same with bases). Some changes may have been too heavy handed, some maybe didn't go far enough, but it could've been tweaked. Sure it would lead to complaints as well, but over time it might've resulted in a better pvp environment.
I like customizable maps in arenas.
I like gladiators (not pvp per se but arena).
I like being able to pull up arena windows from anywhere.
As an aside, maybe added something like WSTs to PvP zones occasionally might increase interest. Increase rewards in those zones for a limited period of time or make some other zone-level change for that week to encourage participation.
Also as an aside, maybe the Devs should create a pre-13 pvp zone for those that are committed to that style to play in (although I imagine TS would still exist).
Last aside, relook at travel suppression to make it more gradual. I like that it's there, but it's current implementation of crawl to super speed speeds is so amateurish and it really makes the whole game look silly when players are moving and attacking in pve and pvp.
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Eh I think its possible to reach a balance between Epic Shields being useful for anyone and Sonic/Therms/Pains, etc being Viable/useful for their resistance buffs. But like I said this would have worked much better when Stalker AS was what it was, Blasters did real damage, and defender debuffs were unresisted.
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Originally Posted by macskull
when I say I like that change I'm referring generally to dueling situations, not team stuff. Outside of psi the damage type wasn't that big a deal on either the hero or villain ladder since heroes had Sonic and vills had Sonic and Therm.
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Just letting the devs know beyond any shadow of doubt that we do exist and we are paying attention...|
Originally Posted by Fury161
Why are there posts regarding base building in this thread? This is a rare opportunity for PvPers to converse with a red name (regerdless of what effect it has). Please dont derail it.
What do I like in the current PvP system? PvP IOs. Though I think that a good idea might be to make them A. Much easier to obtain, and B. Have no set bonuses in PvE. So in PvE they act like generic IOs, but perhaps give the PvP bonuses a boost. It will make having multiple builds that much more meaningful as well. I'm struggling to think of anything else at the moment, will post again if I do. |
beyond that if any attention that falls on pvp has a chance, any chance, leads to bases getting attention you bet that the base builders will be interested and active. Count on that. Especially when so much nothing has been mentioned of love for to and around the base building community.
The first step is talking, that's whats going on it seems.
right now it's pvp, the BB's are hoping that Talk will eventually spread to them.
It's a hope.
as far as my interest in pvp outside of base raids= nothing since i13. I can handle the npc's in pvp zones when going for shivvy's but it's so very not fair that they don't have the same rules we do.
Cheers.
Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.
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If I'm not mistaken, a redname (think it was Sunstorm?) said they'd toyed with the idea of leaving holes in the epic/patron shields but passed on that idea (don't know why, as that would have been better than the current system). Perhaps a better idea is to give the shields a standard amount of res/def to the damage types they protect against normally, while giving them a smaller amount against damage types they usually don't.|
Originally Posted by MrLiberty
Eh I think its possible to reach a balance between Epic Shields being useful for anyone and Sonic/Therms/Pains, etc being Viable/useful for their resistance buffs. But like I said this would have worked much better when Stalker AS was what it was, Blasters did real damage, and defender debuffs were unresisted.
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For example (using the Corruptor powers):
Dark Mastery/Dark Embrace:
PvE numbers: Smash/Lethal 20.63%, Neg/Tox 11.25%
Current PvP numbers: Everything 20.63%
Proposed PvP numbers: Smash/Lethal/Neg/Tox 20.63%, everything else 11.25%.
This ensures there is some weakness with each shield while still providing at least a marginal amount of protection against "exotic" damage types. Next step is to standardize res/def within each AT - for example Defender Temp Invuln provides a higher resistance to every damage type than any other shield simply because in PvE it is the only shield that does not protect against damage other than S/L.
EDIT: Also part of the reason global resists are problematic is because we also have very liberal free base resists. Without that 40% on all the squishies you'd still have enough of a gap between slotted and cap that +res buffs would be useful, even with DR on. However with DR and base resists factored in now you really don't get more than a few percent out of buffs.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
I like that there are people like Dex trying to keep pvp alive by organising leagues etc. Doing KBs is also is fun
I like everything about Arena because you can turn HD and TS off
What's good about PvP zones now, as opposed to the way they used to be?
Hm.
It is now much easier for my squishies to go get the fabulously overpowered temp powers in the PvP zones.
Because A: They've been buffed up against the PvE opponents in those zones
and B: There's no actual PvP happening there to stop them.
Please feel free to apply the same genius design to AE. I don't use it much either, but I'm sure there's some way you can wreck it for its intended player base and make it unintentionally exploitable for me.
/editing to add that that up there is sarcasm, by the way. I normally wouldn't go out of my way to make this point, but the boneheaded handling of PvP for the past couple of years implies that not only is subtlety lost here, so is sarcasm, irony and anything more sophisticated than 6 year old fart humor.
Statesmonkey Sez: Lighten up! It's a game, for Lincoln's sake!
Also: Six years of casual play begins to look an awful lot like one year of hardcore play.
I used to Zone PvP on a everyday basis, but when Issue 13's revamp totally changed the way it worked, I lost all interest in PvP.
Things, I dislike about it now:
- Heal Decay, totally removed the ability of healers in PvP Zones.
- Travel Suppression, I like the thrill of the hunt, I enjoy the chase and escape.
- Holds, this is a huge joke, trollers main ability to do damage and defeat people rely on holds, you took that ability away.
- Resistance, everyone has resistance to every type of damage, although this is cool for squishy type ATs, this is not what it's suppose to be like. My Defenders have more resistance than my tanks now.
- Diminishing Returns, this is by far the worst thing in the PvP system. You take the time to build your character up and slot it to the best of your ability only to enter the zone and be stripped of your hard work and time to get this character the way you like it. This was added to make things fair for people who don't have the time or effort to put into their character as many of us have already.
- Elusivity, a watered down version of what defense is suppose to be, get rid of this and give us our defense back. This is also part of Diminishing Returns above.
We lost a great deal of PvP players from all servers as well as the Test Server. It's just not what it use to be. I really hope things are done, because the current system has made me stop PvPing all together.
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Popping in here to let you know that I'm still reading and digesting this feedback. I'll be out of the office all day today and tomorrow at the Games Developer Conference, so I won't be able to respond.
I do plan on spending some time this weekend reviewing the thread and having discussion with you about it. Unfortunately this week is absolutely insanely busy.
Thanks to everyone for the continued constructive discussion and feedback and I'll speak with you again soon.
- Z
Andy Belford
Community Manager
Paragon Studios
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Hmmm , that when snare should have it's use, no ?|
Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
I like the IDEA behind heal decay and travel suppression. As a once-in-a-great-while PvPer on a controller, it always REALLY cheesed me off when someone was zipping around faster than i could turn my camera to target them and try to get a single attack off, and they ran away. Like, what, really?
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Now, snare are damn useless...
(make them back !)
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Yep, my sentiments exactly. I very much dislike PvP and only ever venture into PvP zones to complete non-PvP content (Shivan runs, nukes, etc). I am very happy that I am never actually forced into PvP, and I hope it will stay that way. (I can't actually imagine Paragon Studios would ever change that aspect.)
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Originally Posted by Starcloud
What I like about the current PvP experience:
2. The fact that it is a completely optional part of City of Heroes. You can go the full way from 1 to 50+Incarnate without ever stepping foot inside an Arena battle or a PvP zone. |
Nothing.
My favorite part of the current PvP situation:
- The power mechanics can diverge from PvE, allowing the devs to mitigate problems with things that would be grossly unfun, particularly for the casual participant.
My least favorite part:
- The power mechanics differ so much from PvE. The casual participant isn't interested in learning the differences just to have a reasonable chance at participating.
Yes, I know the two contradict one another.
Before the changes, I would go into PvP zones with my normal build characters for some casual PvP fun and know why I'd lose against a particular opponent, as all the mechanics were familiar to me. I was OK with that.
After the changes, I'd go into the zones with my normal-build characters for some casual PvP fun, lose against a particular opponent, and have no idea why/what really defined the difference. I'm not as OK with that. As a casual PvP'er, I wasn't inclined to waste the time to learn all the differences and how the play changed when I had other fun things I could do... so I stopped going.
WARNING WALL-O-TEXT
Zone PvP nothing
Arena PvP- Nothing aside for the match customization options.
To be honest when the changes where on test I did a huge post about the changes and showed the huge disparity between my hp regen out of PvP and within PvP zones. I felt then and still feel now that DR does nothing to bring "balance" to the PvP game nor does "heal decay". The changes really left me and several of my SG members who PvPed a lot jaded to the entire "new PvP" experience.
Honestly I don't know if it's possible to even bring PvP back in anyway outside of extreme changes to the system. I would suggest if PvP changes are being discussed and looked at that the dev in charge look at games who have extremely successful PvP games. Dark Age of Camelot is a readily available candidate for a look at, the only reason that game still exists is due to its realm versus realm PvP set up and how it rewards the people/guilds who take part in it.
I honestly felt old PvP had 3 true problems that many people had issue with and thats
1. Verbal abuse/F-tardEliteism
2. Risk versus Reward
3. No real goal or sense of accomplishment for PvPing
The changes in i13 did nothing to address any of these problems, however if we follow my thoughts of looking at games with thriving PvP systems/only still operating due to PvP systems. Again the easy one to use personally DAOC;
1. Verbal abuse/F-tardEliteism- They made the opposing factions unable to chat in game when in PvP zones at least in public channels, and changed the character name that the opposing players saw to some realm specific title.
Did this stop it completely? No, the harassment was taken out on forums IF both parties used the forums however; in game for the most part yes the abuse was kept to an acceptable minimum so that non forumites usually never had to worry about verbal back lash from those they killed or killed them.
2. Risk Versus Reward- They instituted several systems to make PvPing highly rewarding for not only the individual but also for their "guild" and their realm as a whole.
They began with the realm rank system that added "levels" to characters allowing them to purchase realm abilities to further advance and specialize their characters that not only affected PVP but also PVE allowing for further customization.
They instituted a bounty point system for defeating enemies that allowed individuals to purchase top end gear and other useful items however; it was also used to buy normal XP, master level credit and XP, Encounter credit, Artifacts, and much more.
They added Relics, keeps, and towers to their PVP zones that granted stat bonuses to the realm/guild that controlled them.
Did this address the risk versus reward problem? Yes, very much so for any people the changes and bonuses of RVR made event the most ardent "I hate PvP in my MMO" people come out and embrace the system.
3. No real goal or sense of accomplishment for PvPing- With all the above rewards for PvPing you would think that would be enough however it wasn't. Aside from guilds just wanting to own a keep PvPing for control of these local served many purposes the immediate was a sense of pride of your group capturing and claiming it however; they also granted stat bonuses to your entire realm on top of added keep claiming bonuses to your entire guild. Furthermore the realm with the most claimed keeps also gained access to a dungeon zone that had much higher XP rates and money drop bonuses within it making it sought after and providing a material bonus for PVEers and PvPers.
Did this address the problem? Yes it gave people a goal to unlock the dungeon or to gain more power for themselves or their realm or their guild.
Honestly a lot of what's in DAOC or WarHammer or other successful PVP games is already somewhat in COH but on a much smaller scale.
A bounty point system is already in place in Sirens Call the problem with it is it disappears when you leave the zone and its only featured in that one zone. If this was changed to a true PvP currency that transcended all PvP zones, outside of the arena, and allowed people to purchase HIGHLY USEFUL things IE incarnate salvage/xp, PVP IO Recipes, Large Inspirations, Useful Temp Powers, XP/Prestige/Influence or moderate duration bonuses for earning the three. That would go a long way to helping PVP in the Risk/Reward stand point.
Capture targets, DAOC had keeps, COH has pill boxes. Problem with the system it is in only one zone, aside from badge credit and a "zone" goal has no real use. However if you expanded on the concept and turn the pill boxes into military bases that you have to fight your way externally into and through an internal building to a power core/operations bunker to capture for your side. Add some classic Item of power like bonuses for the Super group/villain group who claims the base and maybe access either a new zone/ or mission with enhanced rewards for the side with the most bases captured. Sgs/vgs could then use their prestige to upgrade/upkeep the base to make defending it easier.
This would accomplish several things, not only adding a goal to PVP for everyone but also adding something that sg's and vg's can blow their prestige on outside of base rent and stacking. You could include communication towers so that smaller Sg's and Vg's could participate in this activity as well. You could also add different things to the base capturing/defending to make AT specific roles more interesting. An example would be a secret access tunnel for stalkers to infiltrate the base through or something.
As far as harassment goes the easiest way to deal with it is to disable cross side communication disallow villains/heroes from speaking to each other within a PvP zone would it solves the issue no entirely but it would force the harasser to be more aggressive in getting his harassment noticed making it easier to /report them and get them dealt with by gms.
But even if changes such as this were to be made the issue's caused by DR and i13 PvP need to be addressed. When it comes down to a battle of "balance" and you compare someone like me who has spent billions on min/maxing my character fine tuning him into exactly what I want from my character and someone who refuses to put anything but level 53 SO's in their character no one is going to win.
It is unfair to me that my character gets neutered just so Captain SO over there can compete, and to be honest its unfair to him that you believe he SHOULD be able to compete. The best thing you can do in that situation is make it easier for the SO bandit over there to be able to IO, fine tune, min/max, or whatever you want to call it. And if after making it easier for him to attain the power level that I busted my hump to get and he still wont do it, then o well thats his choice and he will have accept that the billion influence IO babies will have NUMERICALLY stronger characters.
Sorry for the rant but I've honestly been waiting a long time to get all that off my chest and out of my head. Anyways just my 2 cents on the whole thing
-Kaoru
Kaoru Nan'drak 50th seasoned Broad sword/regen werewolf scrapper Justice
BOSS UP OR GET TOSSED UP - NURSETTE-
Founder and leader of The Crimson Moon -justice-
This guy above has a good idea. To expand on it...
Put a base in the middle of RV, that has several entrances, the base starts out as neutral with turrets ect, as you found in base raids. Whichever side gets through the defences captures the base and is given x amount of time (1 minute?) to place, for example, 4 turrets, 2 slow fields ect... The other side then has to capture it.
Rewards are a currency that can be spent on rewards, large insps, PvP IO roll ect... Rewarded as a ticking amount for time spent in control and alive in the base, and a bonus for capturing, killing opponents in the base, destroying turrets, stuff like that.
Back to stuff you like about current PvP.
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Snare? What's that? All I got are a Sleep, a Hold, Levitate, a cone fear and a confuse power. And they'd never hit or if they did hit they'd do pathetic damage and the opponent wouldn't get mezzed...|
Originally Posted by Mc Carbonara
Hmmm , that when snare should have it's use, no ?
Now, snare are damn useless... (make them back !) |
...then a stalker would kill me =(
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
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immobilization
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Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
Snare? What's that?
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Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
What I like about the current PvP experience:
1. The fact it is completely segregated from Player vs. Environment. PvP balance of powers doesn't touch the main game, and shouldn't EVER.
2. The fact that it is a completely optional part of City of Heroes. You can go the full way from 1 to 50+Incarnate without ever stepping foot inside an Arena battle or a PvP zone.