Skipping the shields on FF


Adeon Hawkwood

 

Posted

I was on a TF the other day... I think it was the LFSF... and was teamed up with a Robots/FF Mastermind who skipped both his shields. He had all personal attacks, and Repulsion Bomb too, but no shields other than Dispersion Bubble.

What the heck?! Do people actually do this? What the heck for? At 50?! I guess I'm just a bit flabbergasted, but I do want to hear from folks who skip their bubbles, and maybe why and what they feel are the trade-offs that they justify when they do so.

We finished the SF just fine, the rest of the team rocked, but darn it folks I don't understand this infatuation with skipping such important powers.


 

Posted

Probably because bubbling just straight out sucks. Now on my FF Mm's I pick them up and use them (and share with team), but I have to be honest, every time I've shelved one of my MM's that has shields (FF and Thermal), it's because bubbling every ~4 minutes a minimum of 6 pets and any team members is boring and quite annoying.

That would be my 2 cents..and truth is bots\ff could probably get away with it for the MM's own survivability. Not saying I agree, but I think I could understand the point of view. It's like a kin\* defender my brute was teamed with last night, he had every dual pistol power he could get, but the ONE power from kin he didn't take...speed boost and he was lvl 50. I didn't ask, but I imagine its for similar problems.


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Posted

I don't have Insulation shield and rarely use Deflection shield unless it's gonna be a tough battle/av/etc.

The constant buffing drives me nuts, my playstyle is aggressive and me and the bots like to steam roll.I DO NOT go out of my way to buff people on teams, I'm a mm not a 'fender.
Besides to get every power that I have I have to make sacrifices, I have the full leadership pool,medicine pool,presence,flight and mace mastery.So yea buffing isn't too important to me when I taunt,immobolize,bots jump in, and I heal,attack,taunt,etc.

I leveled my mm without those two shields and only recently took them and then respec'd again to dump them and make a more aggressive build.So yea not too important and I do fine.


 

Posted

Larker: I seriously hope you get stuck on nothing but teams full of scrappers who don't take any of their armor powers because LOL MY JOB IS DAMAGE IM NOT A TANKER LOL.

If I found out I'd invited a MM with buffs who only used them on their pets, I'd boot them posthaste, just for being a selfish jerk. Just like, say, the Radiation Corruptor I found out was deliberately running away from the team before using Accelerate Metabolism because 'my character is selfish and greedy and shares nothing with anyone!'. Boot to the head (and off the team).

If it was a /FF MM who didn't take any of the team shields... enh. If they were a friend I might let it pass, and if I'd mistakenly hit them with an invite before realizing it, I might not kick em, but if I saw it first I wouldn't invite them to begin with.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Larker View Post
I don't have Insulation shield and rarely use Deflection shield unless it's gonna be a tough battle/av/etc.

The constant buffing drives me nuts, my playstyle is aggressive and me and the bots like to steam roll.I DO NOT buff people on teams I'm on, I'm a mm not a 'fender my buffs are for my pets.

You do realize that Insulation shield is more than half of your Defense, right? It's like 3 times the Defense that Maneuvers provides.

And there might be some folks on a team who could use that Defense. I pulled out my Dark/Pain corruptor just because we had three MMs on the SF, I didn't see a need to add a fourth.


I guess I don't actually get the "buffing sucks" mind set. Why take a buffing set?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbie_Ink View Post
Larker: I seriously hope you get stuck on nothing but teams full of scrappers who don't take any of their armor powers because LOL MY JOB IS DAMAGE IM NOT A TANKER LOL.
Rofl, priceless. Couldn't have phrased it any better.


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Posted

Its actually very simple to play a mastermind with a buffing set. When solo buff your pets, when on TFs buff your team.

Your team has more powers then your pets, can take more hits and gerenally have better AIs.


 

Posted

When I am on a team with my buff /thermal mastermind, the Demon Summoning MM, I don't keep up the shields 24/7 -- on my PETS because the aggro is shared enough usually, it's not necessary. Of course, when we are coming to mission completion (the boss room) everything gets shielded. On my Necro/thermal, there is is nothing better I can do for my necros or my team than to keep the resistance shields up at all times possible. For one thing, my necro MM doesn't have whip attacks to share the debuffing fun.

Now on a FF character, it's a different story. FF doesn't have warmth or cauterize for the 5% chance someone takes a hard hit. The best way to keep teammates upright is to shield them up to as close to the defense cap as possible. In case folks weren't paying attention, the defense cap is effectively higher with the new level 50+ content (Apex and Tin Mage). And for my final point to this burgeoning rant: insulation means you have endurance drain protection from sappers, Mu Adepts and minions, carnies, and other nasties. It might not mean that much to a resistance based melee, but something with defensive toggles that drop due to end drain is a whole other story.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbie_Ink View Post
Larker: I seriously hope you get stuck on nothing but teams full of scrappers who don't take any of their armor powers because LOL MY JOB IS DAMAGE IM NOT A TANKER LOL.

If I found out I'd invited a MM with buffs who only used them on their pets, I'd boot them posthaste, just for being a selfish jerk.
Here let me explain it alittle more since I don't go through every little thing when I type something out.

Ok since you didn't catch this;I don't have Insulation shield and rarely use Deflection shield unless it's gonna be a tough battle/av/etc.

I have yet to be on a team yet that requires me to keep them constantly buffing them, I help in other ways if things are goin bad, by healing and if there is a toon that seems to be in need of help then yes buffs and bots go out of the way to protect them.

I don't use my buffs on my pets PERIOD unless it's goin to be a tough battle/av/blah,blah.
In addition I don't go out of my way to buff people,in other words I don't do it automatically.Unless someone asks then I'm cool with it.Some people don't like buffs,SB, ice armor,thermal,etc.

I guess this is the thing that makes people different maybe some of you need buffs or like to buff or w/e.My build/playstyle doesn't need it, yes it gets me in to trouble sometimes.But, like I said I had to make sacrifices for the build.

Ah I see what I did there this is what got everyone "I DO NOT buff people on teams I'm on", I'm sorry my mistake.It should have been "I DO NOT go out of my way to buff people on teams".
My bad,my bad I deserve the tongue lashings I got I couldn't understand why everyone was up in arms until I re-read it.Like I said if people ask I do or someone(a squishy) needs it I do,but,I do ask them.

See this is why they have the preview post button something I don't use, guess I better.

Hey Barbie can I use this in my sig? "Larker: I seriously hope you get stuck on nothing but teams full of scrappers who don't take any of their armor powers because LOL MY JOB IS DAMAGE IM NOT A TANKER LOL".

Can I please???? I got a good laugh out of it.


 

Posted

As MZ I have both Ally Shields, because I reckon if someone has a */FF anything on their team, they're expecting those to be in the mix when needed.

For me, when needed is the key - I won't bother buffing anyone on the team individually until I see their HP bar falling (i.e. they're being hit and more defence could help)

This stops me from constantly buffing players, and gives me more time to position/command my bots (who I routinely don't buff either, except in the same circumstances).


 

Posted

Tsk. I honestly don't like playing buff sets. I don;t like worrying and watching others buff bars to work out the timing for buffing. Guess what I do? I don't play /FF, /Thermal, Frost/, or any of the 'Active Support' Sets. The have /Traps for a reason.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbie_Ink View Post
Larker: I seriously hope you get stuck on nothing but teams full of scrappers who don't take any of their armor powers because LOL MY JOB IS DAMAGE IM NOT A TANKER LOL.

If I found out I'd invited a MM with buffs who only used them on their pets, I'd boot them posthaste, just for being a selfish jerk. Just like, say, the Radiation Corruptor I found out was deliberately running away from the team before using Accelerate Metabolism because 'my character is selfish and greedy and shares nothing with anyone!'. Boot to the head (and off the team).

If it was a /FF MM who didn't take any of the team shields... enh. If they were a friend I might let it pass, and if I'd mistakenly hit them with an invite before realizing it, I might not kick em, but if I saw it first I wouldn't invite them to begin with.
I ran an ITF two weeks ago with a FF mastermind that wouldn't buff the team, only his bots. After 30 minutes and five team wipes I sent the MM a tell (I didn't want to call him out) saying "we might need you to bubble the team". I got no response. After 60 minutes and at least five more team wipes we weren't even at the end of the second mission. I said in team chat "I think it would help if we had bubbles" and the MM replied in team chat "If I bubble everyone it will drain me".

I wished everyone good luck and left the team. The player rating system got some action from me that day.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Larker View Post
Ok since you didn't catch this;I don't have Insulation shield

We know. That's the thing that really drives me batty.


Quote:
I have yet to be on a team yet that requires me to keep them constantly buffing them

At minimum, the devs are making new content that is much harder. You're are likely to need to buff the team in the future. More generally you're probably not noticing all the things your teammates are having to do when they aren't buffed, that wouldn't be needed if you just buffed them. Load up on Luck inspirations is one such example.


Quote:
by healing

Here's where I really go spare. Really? Healing? Aid Other is superior to Insulation Shield? I'm just aghast that anyone could play this game and think so.

I know I asked the question and I wanted answers, so I'm trying not to argue with you for posting your reasons, but I'm a little floored by the response.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by gameboy1234 View Post
Here's where I really go spare. Really? Healing? Aid Other is superior to Insulation Shield? I'm just aghast that anyone could play this game and think so.

I know I asked the question and I wanted answers, so I'm trying not to argue with you for posting your reasons, but I'm a little floored by the response.
I didn't say that Aid Other was superior to Insulation shield I mostly use it to heal the bots and sometimes teammates.

I don't have problems nor does it seem that there are problems when I play this toon with teams, and even then when I do play the mm it's with sgmates.

I don't run the toon on TF's and he is not goin incarnate so I don't worry about the harder stuff.In reality the only time this toon comes out is to play on one night for Hami raids,I get no complaints, nor do I get kicked from teams for being "lolselfish".Sometimes I run him solo and that's about it.

This thread has seriously went south of what I thought, you asked a question of why and why not and I responded.Next time instead of Q&A try assumption & judgement, it never ceases to amaze me that when someone has something that isn't the norm or tries something that is different then it gets crucified.

Now I ask myself why am I explaining any of this to anyone, I pay my monthly fee to play this game and I have fun with my toons and how I build them.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Larker View Post
I help in other ways if things are goin bad, by healing
How, precisely, is healing someone AFTER taking massive damage superior to preventing them from taking damage in the first place? (Hint: It isn't.)

If you wanted to play a "healing" set instead of a defensive buff set, WHY THE HELL DID YOU TAKE */FF?

And drop the "constantly buffing" line. You're not "constantly healing" either.

Tactical bubbling (on the fly when you see someone in trouble) and strategic bubbling (planned before going in against very difficult foes) are really not THAT hard to pick up. You use it almost identically to the way you'd perform a spot heal. And the bubbles last a lot longer than the green numbers do in really chunky fights.

I know that you think buff-botting with bubbles is required behavior (like people who think the same thing about SB and */Kin/*). In short, you've been sold a phony bill of goods.



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Posted

I respeced my Robot FF for defense cap. Nutshell I think he sucks. My robot traps can run circles around my FF toon.

I do feel compelled when playing him that I pretty much MUST buff the team. I do so at the sake of my pets. Honestly in BSF last fight my pets cannot even survive a few moments with all those waves of mobs running around. I pretty much do what lurker mentioned, I bubble and hang around using Aid Other and when I have the endurance I spawn a pet if they last a few seconds great.

If bubbles had some sort of resistance bonus as well they might be a bit more interesting.

But ATM my robot ff only comes out to do the TF of the week to pick up the double merits.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by plainguy View Post
I respeced my Robot FF for defense cap. Nutshell I think he sucks. My robot traps can run circles around my FF toon.

I do feel compelled when playing him that I pretty much MUST buff the team. I do so at the sake of my pets. Honestly in BSF last fight my pets cannot even survive a few moments with all those waves of mobs running around. I pretty much do what lurker mentioned, I bubble and hang around using Aid Other and when I have the endurance I spawn a pet if they last a few seconds great.

If bubbles had some sort of resistance bonus as well they might be a bit more interesting.

But ATM my robot ff only comes out to do the TF of the week to pick up the double merits.
Sadly I think FF is about the worst buffing set. Sure Defenses are nice, but out of the powers there's only really 3 to 5 that I think are necessary. The bubbles and the dispersion field are really the only reason I'd even consider FF, while Personal Force Field is great to save you when things go bad. The rest of the powers are really either completely crap or situational. So why anyone would make an MM without the two team shields is completely beyond my comprehension.

If I wanted to avoid shields and team buffs I'd go something like Dark, which works by debuffing the enemy (and healing yourself and your minions and your team).


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiosuBlues View Post
Tsk. I honestly don't like playing buff sets. I don;t like worrying and watching others buff bars to work out the timing for buffing. Guess what I do? I don't play /FF, /Thermal, Frost/, or any of the 'Active Support' Sets. The have /Traps for a reason.
This is pretty much my opinion. I hate individual buffing so I don't play sets which are based around it and I will never roll any character with Thermal, Force Field, Cold Domination, Sonic Resonance, or Kinetics (baring some miracle where the devs change those sets to not require individual buffing); Pain Domination and Empathy are borderline, I don't have any but I would be willing to consider it.

The good news is that leaves quite a few sets for me, I currently have two characters with Traps, two with Storm Summoning, one with Trick Arrow and I'll get around to rolling a Dark Miasma character one of these days. Radiation Emission and Poison don't interest me.

Other people can do what they want but honestly if you don't like buffing it's probably not a good idea to play a buffign set.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike View Post
How, precisely, is healing someone AFTER taking massive damage superior to preventing them from taking damage in the first place? (Hint: It isn't.)
● If you have bubbles, you still need heals.
● If you have heals, you don't need bubbles.
∴ Heals > Bubbles

Not taking the little bubbles is not a big deal. Teams run missions pretty much non-stop without bubbles. It's not difficult.

Big bubble for mez protection, force bolt to get people out of trouble quickly, PFF + aid self for the occasional heal.

Nothing wrong with that build.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by magicj View Post
● If you have bubbles, you still need heals.
● If you have heals, you don't need bubbles.
∴ Heals > Bubbles
Wrong. It's quite possible for mobs to simply out-damage the ability of the person tossing out the heals. The better option is to simply avoid the damage in the first place. While defense isn't PERFECT at that, it's still a damn sight better than trying to heal someone up after they've been whacked down to a sliver of HP in 1-2 attacks and having nothing to prevent the HP you just gave them back taken away again immediately.

Quote:
Not taking the little bubbles is not a big deal. Teams run missions pretty much non-stop without bubbles. It's not difficult.
Depends on the team and the difficulty.

Quote:
Big bubble for mez protection, force bolt to get people out of trouble quickly, PFF + aid self for the occasional heal.

Nothing wrong with that build.
I didn't say it was wrong. I implied it was sub-optimal. Which it is.



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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike View Post
The better option is to simply avoid the damage in the first place.
This gets tossed around on these boards a lot, and I disagree with it.

So does pretty much everyone who plays the game. That's why teams will run without a bubbler of any kind and not give it a second thought, but will look for healers for even the simplest of missions.

Bubbles are great. Power boosted bubbles are awesome. But neither are needed.


That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by magicj View Post
This gets tossed around on these boards a lot, and I disagree with it.

So does pretty much everyone who plays the game. That's why teams will run without a bubbler of any kind and not give it a second thought, but will look for healers for even the simplest of missions.

Bubbles are great. Power boosted bubbles are awesome. But neither are needed.
You clearly don't believe in the "argument from popularity" as you are not swayed by the fact that most forum goers prefer defense over "healz". Why then do you make the same argument? The fact that players in-game think something is important does not make it so. I remember the days when the only way you could get onto a Statesman as a tank was if you were /Stone. The players who engaged in that particularly idiotic discrimination were wrong, and were no better off by having a chorus of people who agreed with them.

Hyperstrike has made an actual argument: namely, that defense is more useful than healing because healing can only provide mitigation after the fact. How about you try responding to that argument?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dromio View Post
I said in team chat "I think it would help if we had bubbles" and the MM replied in team chat "If I bubble everyone it will drain me".
This is a very real concern on his part. Assuming he's got a typical pre-inherent-Stamina Bots/FF build, he's running the Leadership toggles, and he's got the typical 1 endurance/2 defense slotting in his shields, I calculate his toggles will drop while applying the 11th set of shields (out of 13).


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by magicj View Post
This gets tossed around on these boards a lot, and I disagree with it.

So does pretty much everyone who plays the game. That's why teams will run without a bubbler of any kind and not give it a second thought, but will look for healers for even the simplest of missions.

Bubbles are great. Power boosted bubbles are awesome. But neither are needed.
No, anyone with more than a basic grasp of in game mechanics knows that bubbles are better than heals. Empathy is a great set because of its buffs, not because of its heals.

People look for healers even for the most simple tasks because they often don't know any better. They either come from other MMOs where healers are crucial or are simply basing it off what they see. It's a helluva lot more noticeable when your health is low then BIG GREEN NUMBERS bring you back up to full. Getting hit much less often is more subtle. It's the same reason -tohit debuffs used to be much maligned.

I'm not saying bubbles are needed, but they are much better than heals for keeping people alive. Bubbles don't rely on reaction times to save someone. Once you've cast them (which takes a trivial amount of time relative to the buff duration) bubbles do not require you to be in range of someone to save them or animation time to save them like heals do.

Edit: As for your videos, I don't see how footage of you slowly soloing AVs with the help of a slew of temp pets shows how your character bleeping rocks. A controller who can properly use both their primary and secondary (which includes taking key powers) to lock down mobs and support their team is much more impressive.


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