Skipping the shields on FF
Yes, I'm sure since you aren't that skilled at using Earth trollers that you can say that. And considering you haven't been here for so long, thats quite a statement to state. Would you like to try it again on the actual Troller forums again? I bet not.
|
There's no need to debate this. Just do it. Show me a video of an Earth troller completing the challenge. I'd be more than happy to add them to the list of trollers that can run it.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
Then we agree. Getting your pets healed and buffed for free is a good thing and yet another example of why teams look for healers, not bubblers.
|
Requiring others to heal your pets is a bad thing.
Getting healed at random isn't a bad thing.
Not needing to be healed in the first place is several orders of magnitude better.
But please, keep ladling the BS on. Don't let facts, math or reality stop you.
It's not just me. A few others tried and they failed.
There's no need to debate this. Just do it. Show me a video of an Earth troller completing the challenge. I'd be more than happy to add them to the list of trollers that can run it. |
Woo. So tough.
This is some epic forum trolling. It has to be. The position here is too indefensible to be serious. And just to be clear, I'm talking about the claim that bringing healing to a team, especially a heal as long-activating (and both slow and single-targeted as Aid Other) is more generally valuable than softcapping the team's defense.
Teammates at the defense softcap avoid, on average, all but 10% of the damage thrown at them. Someone who can already comfortably withstand, say, 150 points of incoming DPS due to their resists and +regen can sustain an average of 1500 points of damage if they are at the softcap. Let's say another character survive that 150 DPS because they have 25% defense - if you move them from 25% defense to 45%+ with your shields they would go from being able to survive 150 DPS to 300 DPS. In both cases that's a whole shipload of damage you no longer have to run around healing. Moreover, if they are still taking enough damage to kill them after you apply your shields, the benefit of any healing you give them healing is magnified compared to the damage foes are spitting at your team.
You say teams don't "need" this. Ignoring how you keep making reference to the Stone Tanker or other edge cases, I think the teams you're talking about could do better with bubbles. If they don't "need" to be softcapped, they aren't running combat at as fast a pace, or on as high a settings as they could with more defense. So, sure, they don't "need" shields to cap them if they don't care about doing those things. If they would like more reward faster, they could sure put them to good use. Better use than heals alone, unless they all come with their own softcapped builds, or Stone Tanker levels of layered mitigation. (And the people who bring high defense builds before getting bubbled would still likely benefit more from +DR shields than heals.)
At lower incoming DPS heals will be better, and at higher DPS the shields will be. There's a breakover point somewhere in there. No one I play the game with plays in ways that keep the DPS that low, because we push it hard.
Edit: A lot of teams ask for "healers" because, generally, the people asking for that have past experienced with other MMOs, where proactive mitigation in the form of buffs are far, far weaker than they are in CoH. In those environments, heals are often the strongest survival tools that support characters can bring to a team. Here, under high incoming DPS situations, heals are better used to shore up buffs like Defense and DR. Those folks usually aren't aware of how CoH's mechanics are different from those other MMOs. To not put a fine point on it, they're ignorant of this game's mechanics.
(Case in point: Go try to "pigpile" the Freedom Phalanx at the end of the RSF with just a healer. Then try it with just softcapped characters. Repeat each a few times, and see which one generally goes better.)
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
All I have left to say on this topic is this, take a gander at the 'other' games forums and search for a 'certain' person and brush up on their posting history, and everything should be clear.
"An army is a team. It lives, eats, sleeps, fights as a team. This individuality stuff is a bunch of BS." -General George Patton
-Lord Azazel
At lower incoming DPS heals will be better, and at higher DPS the shields will be. There's a breakover point somewhere in there. No one I play the game with plays in ways that keep the DPS that low, because we push it hard.
|
(Case in point: Go try to "pigpile" the Freedom Phalanx at the end of the RSF with just a healer. Then try it with just softcapped characters. Repeat each a few times, and see which one generally goes better.)
|
Healers are Rads and Kins and Empaths and Darks. All of them bring debuffing or shields in addition to the heals.
This is what teams do. At every skill level of play, every level of difficulty, and every experience level. No one brings in FFers to beat AVs. Just the opposite is true. FFers are known to be a poor choice against AVs. Probably the worst choice in the game.
Here, like in most cases, being at the defense cap is irrelevant. It's not what teams need.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
All I have left to say on this topic is this, take a gander at the 'other' games forums and search for a 'certain' person and brush up on their posting history, and everything should be clear.
|
Lord knows you couldn't just admit you're wrong and move on. After all, two years later you're still going on about the Earth troller thing.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
Again, the issue isn't "heals vs. bubbles". It's what, if anything, do little bubbles add to a team.
And what's going to happen in actual gameplay is those teams are going to get healers to handle the problem, not FFers. |
None of those things align with your claim. None of my experience says that "99% of teams" are doing what you claim they are.
Healers are Rads and Kins and Empaths and Darks. All of them bring debuffing or shields in addition to the heals. |
At every skill level of play, every level of difficulty, and every experience level. No one brings in FFers to beat AVs. Just the opposite is true. FFers are known to be poor against AVs. |
I'll concede, though, that a team that wants to roll content is probably better served overall by a Cold Domination character on the team, since their +defense values can probably buff the team's core damage mitigation to a level close enough to what a FF can (especially since any other defense sources may ensure everyone is softcapped even with lower +defense values), while also bringing various other buffs and debuffs. However, this is an aside with respect to whether +defense shields are more effective than healing under high DPS stress levels. FF != Cold, but given a choice in someone who can heal the team, and anyone who can softcap the team, I would prefer the softcap every time because it provides a proactive, scaling average mitigation that will exceed what any practical "healer" can pump out in recovered HP/time.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I have Rads and Darks. No one I play with has me on a TF or AV-killing team for my heals. They have me on the team for -DR, -Regen, and in Rad's case, +Recharge and +damage. We don't invite Kins for their heal. We invite them for the +recharge and +damage. The fact that they can all also heal is frosting on the cake, nothing more.
|
FFers are known to be poor increasing the speed with which you defeat AVs. That is distinct and separate from the fact that they can often make the team nigh immune to the AV's damage.
|
What they need to do is kill the AV. FF's little bubbles aren't going to help in that area. That's why teams don't look for FFer's to kill AVs.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
And I'll tell you _again_ this is not about heals. Healers do much much more than heal.
|
Edit: Oh, and it's not about heals? Then why did you say this?
● If you have bubbles, you still need heals.
● If you have heals, you don't need bubbles. ∴ Heals > Bubbles |
Yes they can. How many teams need to be immune to damage, AV or otherwise. None. |
No one needs to do those things, but if you want to succeed in the shortest possible time, you want to do those things, and you want +defense to be able to achieve it.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Referring to people who you want other things from as "healers" is retarded.
|
That is the reason nearly every team has one or more healers. But once you have healers on your team, you need to look at everything they can do, not just the heals. Their ability to add buffs, debuffs, etc, is directly relevant to whether or not adding an FFers little bubbles adds anything of value to a team. As are their heals.
Any team who wants to run up to the AV and beat it down without bothering to use any better tactics, when said AV is, oh, +4 to you comes to mind. Any team who wants to run up to eight +3 AVs or four +4 AVs and stand right in the middle of them to maximize AoE powers and win the fight in record time.
|
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
Again, the issue isn't "heals vs. bubbles". It's what, if anything, do little bubbles add to a team.
|
And what's going to happen in actual gameplay is those teams are going to get healers to handle the problem, not FFers. |
And yeah, they may slog through the content at a snail's pace, screaming about "hax" and all since their healer can't keep them alive.
Healers are Rads and Kins and Empaths and Darks. All of them bring debuffing or shields in addition to the heals. |
Try actually LOOKING at the power sets you're talking about.
This is what teams do. |
At every skill level of play, every level of difficulty, and every experience level. |
No one brings in FFers to beat AVs. |
Just the opposite is true. FFers are known to be a poor choice against AVs. Probably the worst choice in the game. |
Or not.
Here, like in most cases, being at the defense cap is irrelevant. It's not what teams need. |
Oh, and you might want to talk to whoever sold you his account.
Well, the name calling the name calling didn't work, the facts didn't support your case, 99.99% of teams playing the game don't follow what you're saying, so lets try loyalty tests.
Lord knows you couldn't just admit you're wrong and move on. After all, two years later you're still going on about the Earth troller thing. |
Still pulling numbers from your donkey eh?
You've already been talked to by people who DO. My bubbler is sitting on a Master of the Statesman's Task Force. How many AVs is that again?
|
Gratz.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
And I'll tell you _again_ this is not about heals. Healers do much much more than heal.
|
Anyone referring to the various support classes as "healers" quite simply does NOT have a grasp on the realities of this game.
Sound like anyone we know?
Yes they can. How many teams need to be immune to damage, AV or otherwise. None. |
How many teams need heals if they're immune to damage from everything in the mission/TF/etc?
NONE.
What they need to do is kill the AV. FF's little bubbles aren't going to help in that area. That's why teams don't look for FFer's to kill AVs. |
Hmm. Going to need a bigger clue-bat.
How many teams need heals if they're immune to damage from everything in the mission/TF/etc?
NONE. |
Just as you don't need bubbles to get a MSTF. The spot is better taken by a healer. That doesn't mean a team can't invite you along and get a MSTF anyway despite your sub-par contribution.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
Well, no offense, but what did you think I was referring to when I said "healer" if not empaths, rads, kins, darks, etc.? There's no actual class named "Healer" in this game.
|
That is the reason nearly every team has one or more healers. But once you have healers on your team, you need to look at everything they can do, not just the heals. Their ability to add buffs, debuffs, etc, is directly relevant to whether or not adding an FFers little bubbles adds anything of value to a team. As are their heals. |
Your logic breaks down when you throw Cold Domination in the discussion. Cold brings +defense shields, debuffs, and +recovery. It does not bring any form of healing. It is therefore not "a Healer". I contend that the +defense from a Cold's shields are their primary contribution to a team's progress through regular content, because they can allow the rest of the team to essentially ignore self-protection and go completely on the offensive, even against foes for which the Cold's debuffs would be largely wasted.
You have a character you're clearly proud of in that movie in your signature. He has PFF. PFF is a "shield", combining both +defense and +resistance. If someone ran your Portal challenge 100 times using just PFF but no heals, and then ran it 100 times with just self heals but no PFF, which batch of attempts do you think would have more successes? Why do you think that? Use examples or numbers if possible.
Or perhaps the need could be better served by something like Empathy. (I would put my money, and my search criteria, on Empathy). But it's certainly not typical gameplay by any means. |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
In fact, if you want to do speed runs on just about anything, it's difficult to beat a team of 8 Empaths.
The rest of your post I'll leave alone because it's nighty night time for me.
Take care.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
In fact, if you want to do speed runs on just about anything, it's difficult to beat a team of 8 Empaths.
|
I don't want to convince anyone that Empathy is "gimp". I'm not a powerset bigot, and I don't turn away Empaths (or much of anything) from teams, and I don't tell other people they shouldn't invite them. I don't contend that "more, faster" is the only or right way to play the game. There are things other than either +defense and +shields that are nice to have, and Empathy does bring some nice examples to the table. My only point is that both the math and practical experience say that if you want to maximize performance in terms of stuff like kills/hour, Empathy wouldn't be on the short list of suggestions. As I mentioned earlier, FF probably wouldn't be specifically, either, but something that can give high +defense to the whole team would be, and FF can fill that role.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I contend it's trivial to beat it. Bring a Rad, a Kin, a Cold and 5 damage dealers. For similar performance, sub Dark for the Rad or a FF for the Cold. There's really nothing that can replace a Kin, but turning them into another debuffer would hardly suck.
|
Quad-stacked Fortitude: 60% defense to all, +125% damage
Perma-Adrenaline Boost: 100% recharge, 500% regen, 800% recovery
8-stacked Assault: +150% damage
Double-stacked RAs: 1000% regen, 400% recovery
Total: 60% defense to all, 275% damage (one SO in each attack will hit the damage cap), 100% recharge, 1500% regen, 1200% recovery
Speed Boost: 50% recharge, 50% recovery
Fulcrum Shift: 400% damage
Accelerate Metabolism: 25% damage, 30% recharge, 30% recovery
Cold shields: 15% defense to all
Arctic Fog: 5% defense to all
Total: 20% defense to all, 400% damage, 80% recharge, 80% recovery
Your team has the advantage of higher damage caps on the damage-dealers and the ability to shut down enemy regen. Resistance debuffs could go either way: between them, the Rad and the Cold can hit about 90% resistance debuff, but a team of eight Emp/Sonics could easily hit 160%. The big advantage the Empathy team has, though, is that 1200% recovery buff: it makes nukes crashless.
Yes, but this isn't a "heals vs bubbles" debate. It's a discussion about the pros and cons of the little bubbles. Healers enter the discussion only because most teams have a healer of some sort.
Given that most teams have a healer, what do the little bubbles bring that a team needs? |
Which is better mitigation than Healing is.
We've already been over this one.
You can't separate the "other buffs" from the heals. The healer has both. That's why teams get healers. |
Look,
I suspect you are getting so much flack because of your definitions.
There are NO healers in this game.
Rads and Kinetics and Darks only have one Heal in their entire set, and many Empaths, Thermals, and Pain Domination players will cringe at being labelled with that term (I know I do) because even with more than one direct heal they are primarilly "buff/debuff sets" first and foremost.
There are powersets which contain heals, but NO powerset is defined by its healing potential. There are Buffers, and there are Debuffers, and there are All-Round support sets.
There are no "Healers" in CoH.
You don't call a Defender a "Healer" in the same way that you don't call a Tank a "Taunter". A Tank does much more than taunt one foe - they contribute damage, they mitigate damage, and they crowd control. Some can even inflict End Drain or Mez. A Defender does much more than Heal - even Empathy and Thermal are defined more by their buffs/debuffs than their targetted ally heals.
If you want to say that you usually don't need extra mitigation from FF bubbles whenever an Empath is already keeping everyone buffed AND healed, fine. But (i) It's the buffs that mitigate the bulk of incoming damage and the heals that just keep the health bars "nicely topped up" after the damage has already been heavilly mitigated. (ii) What will you do if the empath drops and you're the only support set left on the team? "Aid Other" isn't going to cut it, even with Dispersion Shield. You'll need those bubbles.
You can't always count on their being a "healer" on a team - and in my experience, anyone that LABELS themselves a "Healer" isn't doing much buffing... and in that situation your FF bubbles will mean that for a few seconds of your time, the Empath will have to throw out a HECK of a lot less heals to keep everyone topped up, making them have far more "free time" which will let them contribute to the team in other ways. Such as Damage.
There's a reason why you don't see "All Healer" superteams.
It's not just me. A few others tried and they failed.
There's no need to debate this. Just do it. Show me a video of an Earth troller completing the challenge. I'd be more than happy to add them to the list of trollers that can run it. |
Animated Stone can tank Infernal indefinitely. And last I checked you can hold the summoning portal (before it aggroes) to prevent it from spawning enemies.
And what relevance does this have to a Bubble/Heal Debate?
Even if you said "no mezzing the portal" - Demon Minions/LTs/Bosses have no attacks that inflict Mez, and are susceptable to Stuns (Stalagmites), slows (Quicksand) and Knockdown (Earthquake) as well as holds (Volcanic Gasses). Any decent Earth Controller could complete that challenge (albeit slowly - I'm presuming that you left Earth off the list because it's got poor ST damage and the portal is just a big bag of HP). And that's leaving aside anything from the secondary, like Cage powers or -ToHit debuffs. And Set bonuses. And the Fire EPP shield.
In Short: "Whut?"
Since you seem starved for my attention, I'll throw a bone your way and give you a gratz for leeching off your team to get the MSTF.
Gratz. |
Yes, but teams already have healers. You're living in a dream world if you think otherwise. And once the healer is there, they don't need the bubbles.
Just as you don't need bubbles to get a MSTF. The spot is better taken by a healer. That doesn't mean a team can't invite you along and get a MSTF anyway despite your sub-par contribution. |
One of the very first MoSTFs completed on Defiant, that I know of.
Back whenever we hadn't a clue what it entailed and what ATs were "best".
We had an INV Tank (Ohh no Granite)
We had a FF and a Sonic (Ohh no Heals)
We had a Rad (Heals! Waitwat? "Debuffs"?!?)
Teams exist in the game with no healer.
Even in Teams WITH a healer - well, do you think the "rad" (which was on your list of "healers") could have kept everyone on that 8-man team alive without the Sonic and FF bubbles? Even IF they had slotted up their "Radiant Aura"?
Nothing against the rad, but if we'd dropped him and gotten a Cold (so everyone'd be softcapped with Cold + FF bubbles, and we'd still have -regen) we'd have had no "Healers" at all. And the team would have gone far smoother.
And what's going to happen in actual gameplay is those teams are going to get healers to handle the problem, not FFers.
|
Let's say, in this hypothetical situation, we have both a 'healer' and a FFer, and the team (full 8 person team in case this isn't a TF/SF) is still getting curbstomped by the last mission in the LRSF. Clearly, getting another healer is NOT an option. (seriously, who would stop a LRSF just to change a toon for a healer?)
Now, the only real options are inspiration runs. What do most people stock up on? Do you tell your team to grab a whole bunch of greens to heal back the damage? I certainly wouldn't listen. I stock up on purples, oranges, and maybe a row of greens for the lucky shots that get through.
Now, this doesn't really fall under the "Heals versus shields" argument, but it follows the same ideas.
50s: Yumi Eryuha-Arch/Energy, Mirria-Thugs/Dark, Meyami Kitsuna-Claws/SR, Celesta Seusen-SS/Invuln, Lady Mirriella-Illusion/Empathy
Arc 503982 "Dimension Xi Epsilon 22-10" Part one of a multi-part arc.
P.S. there's no reason to feel bad just because you couldn't complete the challenge. No Earth troller has to date. Mind, Plant, Fire, and Illusion, yes. But no Earth troller yet.
"An army is a team. It lives, eats, sleeps, fights as a team. This individuality stuff is a bunch of BS." -General George Patton
-Lord Azazel