Skipping the shields on FF


Adeon Hawkwood

 

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Originally Posted by Master Zaprobo View Post
Neither have I heard of an "All Empathy" team doing the same either. The reason for this is a successful high-end team needs debuffs. Neither Empathy nor Forcefields bring these to the table outside of temporary powers.
This isn't entirely true. Debuffs are very useful (or more accurately, certain types of debuffs are very useful) but a successful high end team can manage without them even for stuff like STF.

In particular the Repeat Offenders have demonstrated the usefulness of the "All Empathy" team. As Hyperstrike said it's not about the heals, it's about stacking buffs. A team of 8 Empaths means that each person has Adrenalin Boost on them permanently (or close enough) along with triple stacked Fortitude and permanent Auras. At that point they essentially combine the survivability of tanks (or pretty close to it) with the damage of blasters. Due to the multiplicative effect of mixing buffs and debuffs they could be more powerful by switching some of the Empaths for debuffers but they do manage just fine on their own.


 

Posted

Wow...obviously a hot topic!

I skipped the small bubbles back in the days when we had to 'pay' for Fitness because

A) Having to reapply bubbles every 4 minutes got to be a pain.
B) I solo with my MMs most of the time (this was back before the Pet Enhancers were AoE) and not taking them only hurt me, not the team.
C) Bot/FF is almost Easy Mode anyway and I DID want to take extra Powers.

However now with inherent Fitness I have 3 Power slots opened up. So I did the Respec and put them back. One End Reduc IO, no +Def slots. I still solo with him most of the time and it suits me to not use them except on the Tier 3 who I use as a Tank. I bubble him, Goto/Aggressive, keep him healed and we all have a good time.

I have ONE FF Defender. She has a Macro on the Power bar that asks the team "Who wants bubbles?" I've been on teams with /Therm where half the team or more didn't want the shields because the strain on the graphics was too great. I once had someone accuse me of being 'Selfish' with my FF build because his Powers readout showed that I didn't slot my bubbles for +Def.

It takes all kinds I guess. Yes, I take them but no, I don't consider it my job to keep the whole team bubbled all the time. I bubble the Melee types because they help keep me alive. I bubble anyone else who asks because not doing so makes me feel like a goon (I am on a TEAM after all).

By the way...I don't use MMs and buffing types during SFs/TFs and really high-speed/high-stress teams. I play to have fun and having the team relying on my fumbly fingers is a serious buzzkill for me. I'm not going to boot anyone for not having a power...ANY power...but then I don't scratch-build teams much either.


"Comics, you're not a Mastermind...you're an Overlord!"

 

Posted

At the end of the day people can choose whatever powers they like and if they dont have a certain power so what.If you need to be buffed by others to enjoy your game then you are in the wrong game


It doesn't cost a lot to be nice and reply to tells

 

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Originally Posted by magicj View Post
That reason is teams with healers tend to succeed, whereas teams without healers tend to fail.
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Originally Posted by magicj View Post
Players like bubbles, but they _need_ heals.
Oh my.

I have seldom seen someone so wrong on these forums that propagated the wrongness so consistently.

Thankfully, I don't team with anyone in-game that has such an incorrect view.

I play on teams daily that do not fail and do not have healers.

I play on teams daily with high damage mitigation, be it bubbles or other defense, good controls, etc.

I never, ever, participate in teams that start with the 'we need a healer' crap either. I drop immediately if I see this sentiment echoed in anything other than jest.

Personally, I do not expect any character of any AT with any powerset to do any specific thing. I just want everyone to participate and give something meaningful. So take your shields or not, skip your heals or not, I don't care.

But continuing to propagate 'every team needs heal to succeed' is simply laughable.


"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45

 

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Originally Posted by MajorPrankster View Post
But continuing to propagate 'every team needs heal to succeed' is simply laughable.
How about 'every crappy team needs heal to succeed'? lol

Below lvl 30, my emp defender did a great job saving teams with tanks that dont taunt, controllers that dont hold, scrappers with no shields, etc...
But on teams with people that know what they are doing my emp is like the sprinkles on top of a cupcake. Good, but no one would really miss it if it wasnt there.


 

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Why would anyone take bubbles if not to... put bubbles on stuff?


 

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just a quick comment before i gotta split for work...

Blew through a moonfire TF last night. Team composition comprised of a bubbler and a /cold troller. Heals? what heals? we rarely got hit at all! Wait...scratch that...i think i might have gotten hit with a heal one time...and my shields were down at the time. We were taking on entire big cave rooms full of Vamps and Puppies all at the same time and not even breaking a sweat. (tho admittedly...having about 3 controllers ALL being ill/ and my dominator contributing to controls, like wormholing guys back to us, might have been a contributing factor)


RaikenX is currently seeking new quotes to add to his signature.
Someone say something funny.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe View Post
::looks at RaikenX's signature::
Something funny.
That'll do, pig. That'll do.

 

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You know, I am forced to wonder just how I've been playing the game so wrong. I have seen people call for healers, but they're usually perfectly willing to accept anything that buffs or debuffs.

Heck, one time I logged in on Virtue, saw an ITF calling for buffs with room for two, and asked if they could use a Crab. Instant invite. I wonder why that happened? I mean, if +defense, +tohit, and +damage doesn't outweigh +hp... MY crab is even built along a team buff theory with double maneuvers and assault, as well as Hover, Weave, and Combat Jumping. She constantly has 43%+ defense to all positions and Psi WITHOUT a completed set build yet.

Heck, in the i20 sneak peek my crab was able to 'tank' an entire spawn of level 54 warworks/clockwork while taking them out with a crippling combination of Venom Grenade, Omega Maneuver, Frag Grenade, Supression, and then ST attacks with support from Call Reinforcements on whatever was left while waiting for VG to finish recharging. I didn't even have to pop Serum.

So, anyone care to explain why VEAT's are so widely accepted whenever a team needs anything if 'heelarz' are so much better than anything else the game has to offer? Magicj, do you have an explanation for this? Surely a VEAT's team buffs are less desirable than a 'heelar' when all a VEAT does is stuff that other AT's do better? They don't innately tank as well as a tanker, they can't damage as much as a Blaster, even a Fortunata can't control as well as controllers and doms can, so why do they work so well in any kind of team?

Surely it's not the buffs, since those don't include any kind of non-self heal!

/sarcasm


 

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I always considered my Night Widow to be a villain-side defender (good buffs) that happened to have a melee attack set. Stack the buffs!


Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.

 

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Originally Posted by Mr_Kingkillaha View Post
How about 'every crappy team needs heal to succeed'? lol

Below lvl 30, my emp defender did a great job saving teams with tanks that dont taunt, controllers that dont hold, scrappers with no shields, etc...
But on teams with people that know what they are doing my emp is like the sprinkles on top of a cupcake. Good, but no one would really miss it if it wasnt there.

Lvl 29 was where my Emp/Elec Defender was suddenly left off of everyone's guest list too. Before that the builds hadn't settled in, before 22 there's no SOs and so forth. Right about 30 everybody starts to click and suddenly every team wants more control and would only take me if there was nothing else available.


"Comics, you're not a Mastermind...you're an Overlord!"

 

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FF.

There is nothing in FF other than personal FF, Dispersion Bubble, and the two buff shields you have to protect others.

If you solo, then you can forgo them I assume, but still bubbling pets makes the pets last longer. Otherwise there is generally no reason to take this set if you did not take your shield options.

The knockbacks are fine, but with Pet AI the way it is, knocking back can even screw up bots drawing more aggro to the MM who used it.

I just can't think of any reason why someone would take a buff set and avoid the buffs. There are other sets that would generally be more effective than FF if you wish to have a selfish tone to your toon.


 

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Originally Posted by magicj View Post
● If you have bubbles, you still need heals.
● If you have heals, you don't need bubbles.
∴ Heals > Bubbles
There is so much wrong with that statement its not even funny...


The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.

If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-

 

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I've followed this thread from the beginning, but one of the assumptions passed around troubles me: do groups even ask for healers? I've never seen it happen, on any character, on any server, for any group type (whether a tf/sf or what have you) at any time since coming back with i19. I've seen lots of people looking for */kins but that's about the only specification I've come across (mainly on Freedom if it matters). Most times when I respond to a LFM broadcast, the team leader doesn't care or want to know at or primary/secondary selection.

After playing other games,it seems that one of the strengths of the CoX system is that you don't need any particular combination to succeed for most encounters (exceptions like the weakened hami portion of LGTF notwithstanding).

So, where does this idea come from that teams are looking for a healer? Is this a relic of earlier issues?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
...[I]t would be more proper to say this game is slooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooowly dying.

 

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Originally Posted by Nyghtmaire View Post
After playing other games,it seems that one of the strengths of the CoX system is that you don't need any particular combination to succeed for most encounters (exceptions like the weakened hami portion of LGTF notwithstanding).

So, where does this idea come from that teams are looking for a healer? Is this a relic of earlier issues?

Well the notion of needing a healer is generally because that is how most games play out, and yes, people still look for healers.

Why? Resistances are fine, and Force Fields are fine, but in my experience a healer is usually an asset not because he or she can heal but because a person playing empathy or pain, Thermal tend to be extremely used to micromanagement. If a healer misses you and you die because they did not heal you, many of the times it's because they are healing someone in a worse position.

Now, that being said, people who play forcefields often lost track of the duration of their bubbles and shields drop. I have even seen it where dispursion bubble confuses some bubblers because when looking at the screen it looks as though members of the group are bubbled.

Now with Empathy, you gain buffs at the end which can take almost any toon out there and make them complete gods on the battle field. I chose Empathy and Power Mastry as my epic pool. If you Power Boost Fortitude, the auras and Adren Boost you are literally making a blaster into a tank. Well not quite but much tankier than they will ever be in their existance.

Healers are not 100% needed, but usually appreciated because other people playing a support set are not doing their jobs properly


 

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Originally Posted by Nyx View Post
Healers are not 100% needed, but usually appreciated because other people playing a support set are not doing their jobs properly
Except this comes back to the problem that there are NO healers in CoX. Empathy has 3 direct heals and a rez and I think that is the most used. That is less than have the primary set and only ~8% of the total powers a character can have. I guess they could also take Aid other and Resuscitate for 12% but that still not many 'healz'.

I avoid people asking for a healer for a team because they are clearly demonstrating they don't know what they are talking about.


 

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Originally Posted by Nyghtmaire View Post
I've followed this thread from the beginning, but one of the assumptions passed around troubles me: do groups even ask for healers? I've never seen it happen, on any character, on any server, for any group type (whether a tf/sf or what have you) at any time since coming back with i19. I've seen lots of people looking for */kins but that's about the only specification I've come across (mainly on Freedom if it matters). Most times when I respond to a LFM broadcast, the team leader doesn't care or want to know at or primary/secondary selection.
It's not as common as it used to be but it does still happen. Nowadays I see a general "looking for support" a lot more than "looking for healer" but I do see it from time to time and even see the occasional "LF2M, need Tank and Healer then g2g" style comment (which vastly amuses me).

Heck, I when recruiting for an ITF last night I had someone who wanted to know what powersets the tank on my team had before he would join. He didn't respond when I explained that most of the team hadn't zoned in yet so I had no clue whether I even had a Tanker on the team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyx View Post
Healers are not 100% needed, but usually appreciated because other people playing a support set are not doing their jobs properly
I don't think you meant it that way but this is a rather arrogant attitude. You get bad players with every set and I have met plenty of poor Empathy/Pain Domination players. I'm tempted to say that I've met more poor Empaths than any other set but I think that's probably perception bias on my part since it's often easier to spot someone doing a poor job with Empathy than with other sets.

Healing doesn't have a monopoly on making up for the poor play of others it is simply the type of support where doing so is most obvious (giant green numbers) just as it's the type of support that is most obvious overall.


 

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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood View Post
It's not as common as it used to be but it does still happen. Nowadays I see a general "looking for support" a lot more than "looking for healer" but I do see it from time to time and even see the occasional "LF2M, need Tank and Healer then g2g" style comment (which vastly amuses me).
Just an anecdote in support of why that's amusing...

Last night I went on an ITF with a bunch of regulars. We completed it in 24 minutes. Our team composition?*

Scrapper: DM/DA
Scrapper: KM/SR
Scrapper: BS/Regen
Scrapper: Kat/ElA
Night Widow: Melee Widow spec (me)
Scrapper: MA/DA
Dominator: Elec/Psi
Tanker: Mace/SD

OK, we did have a tanker. There was certainly no healing going around, except for what people brought of their own. The only primary team buffs were my own and the Dominator's (+end ticks and Link Minds). As is more common now post I19, there were a fair sprinkling of Leadership buffs running.

* I only know this in such detail because I took a screen shot and know the characters' powersets.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

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Originally Posted by Diggis View Post
Except this comes back to the problem that there are NO healers in CoX. Empathy has 3 direct heals and a rez and I think that is the most used. That is less than have the primary set and only ~8% of the total powers a character can have. I guess they could also take Aid other and Resuscitate for 12% but that still not many 'healz'.

I avoid people asking for a healer for a team because they are clearly demonstrating they don't know what they are talking about.
No offence Diggis, because I don't play rude.

But Empathy is a buff set with heals as a focus. If you are referring to direct heals as a way to get green bars us then I agree that it has that, but considdering the amount of powers in the set and the limit that is placed on power selection you are a Healer.

In all games where you have someone who A) Feeds you Life Points or B) Feeds you Mana (Thats what Ill call it) or C) causes you to lose neither in the first place, then I am looking at a classic healer/buffer.

Depending on how you slot Adren boost is an DoT Heal for both Regen and for HP.

Clear Mind romoves status effects....which is technically a cure, and therefore a direct heal. It's not upping your HP, but it is removing something hindering, which like in other games....take say Poison...is nullified by it's effects, and therefore a heal.

If someone in your group wants a healer, to say that they don't know what they are doing is not kosher to me. I mean regardless of whether or not you have a bubbler or other buffer, healing is a form of indirect damage mitigation. Or at least that how some perceive it, which is all subjective.

But seeing as unlike any other power set it does not have a debuff or mode of attack to say the set is not heal centric is in my oppinion inccorect.

I have seen well played healers stop wipes in bad and good pug groups, and the only people who dissagree will always disagree because they think they are to L33T to admit otherwise.

All Ill say is that you don't always need a healer, but no one complains when an Empath whos good at his or her job is on the team.


 

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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood View Post
I don't think you meant it that way but this is a rather arrogant attitude. You get bad players with every set and I have met plenty of poor Empathy/Pain Domination players. I'm tempted to say that I've met more poor Empaths than any other set but I think that's probably perception bias on my part since it's often easier to spot someone doing a poor job with Empathy than with other sets.

Healing doesn't have a monopoly on making up for the poor play of others it is simply the type of support where doing so is most obvious (giant green numbers) just as it's the type of support that is most obvious overall.
My post above this will answer. I have been in many teams where the pther support players are not buffing, or a bubbler bubbles his pets and nothing else. Shields drop. I know this, and we all know this, but it's because of the duration. People are not always aware on the board when there are a million things going on to reshield people.

Now when I say people not doing their job it's people who either refuse buff or those who just forget to, and being reminded by teamates all the time to assist them.

Im by no means perfect at my bubbler, but I watch the people in my groups buffs in the team window a lot, because it's the only way Ill know.

Thats what I meant. Heals are instant and healers in my experience or at least the people I have played with are very diligent in their job. It's because it is not fire and forget for 4 minutes. It's constant. And it's also more obvious...when green goes down heal.


 

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Originally Posted by Nyx View Post
Now when I say people not doing their job it's people who either refuse buff or those who just forget to, and being reminded by teamates all the time to assist them.
Yes, you encounter people with buff sets who don't buff but I've encountered plenty of Empaths who are horrible buffers as well (i.e. fortitude only on the tank, saving AB for when someone uses a nuke etc.).

Quote:
Thats what I meant. Heals are instant and healers in my experience or at least the people I have played with are very diligent in their job. It's because it is not fire and forget for 4 minutes. It's constant. And it's also more obvious...when green goes down heal.
The thing is heals are not the only form of reactive mitigation. They are a convenient form since they work the same in all situations (baring healing resistance debuffs which are very rare) but there are plenty of other ways to provide reactive mitigation that don't involve healing and in a lot of cases other forms are actually better. Healing provides a fixed level of mitigation based on how fast you can pump it out. Other forms of reactive mitigation scale with the damage they are taking.

For example on my Earth/Storm Controller if I see someone taking heavy damage my first thought is not "hit them with O2 boost" it's "stop them from taking more damage". I sometimes hit them with O2 boost first to buy me some time to think but my main goal is always to stop them from taking more damage because if I don't stop the incoming damage chances are O2 boost alone will not save them.

All support sets have some options for reactive mitigation although not all have the same level of utility (Traps for example has very limited options) but healing is not the only useful form of reactive mitigation.


 

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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood View Post
Yes, you encounter people with buff sets who don't buff but I've encountered plenty of Empaths who are horrible buffers as well (i.e. fortitude only on the tank, saving AB for when someone uses a nuke etc.).


The thing is heals are not the only form of reactive mitigation. They are a convenient form since they work the same in all situations (baring healing resistance debuffs which are very rare) but there are plenty of other ways to provide reactive mitigation that don't involve healing and in a lot of cases other forms are actually better. Healing provides a fixed level of mitigation based on how fast you can pump it out. Other forms of reactive mitigation scale with the damage they are taking.

For example on my Earth/Storm Controller if I see someone taking heavy damage my first thought is not "hit them with O2 boost" it's "stop them from taking more damage". I sometimes hit them with O2 boost first to buy me some time to think but my main goal is always to stop them from taking more damage because if I don't stop the incoming damage chances are O2 boost alone will not save them.

All support sets have some options for reactive mitigation although not all have the same level of utility (Traps for example has very limited options) but healing is not the only useful form of reactive mitigation.
I agree with you 100%. I view healing as a tool thats usefull. Storm and Trick Arrow are classic ideas of controlling the floor to prevent damage from occuring. I see no reason why that is not valid, and I myself have a storm and O2 is only really untilized as a cure for status effects for those who are weaker to those issues.

Healing is a reactive responce to a specific member of the party, and while buffing defense ensures a more sturdy party, healing is still an asset, but does not ensure that the battle is won. It's just sometimes nice to have.

I play a Grav/FF and like Storm, I use the controls it offer to prevent or mitigate damage, however if things go horribly wrong, the healer often shines. Freezing rain has saved many a party, but because it does not have floating green numbers over peoples heads they sometimes don't see it as mitigation, when in fact it's incredible. Oil Slick Arrow is the same really.

When I am speaking of healers being beneficial it's because in balanced team it can help keep the fighting going without much downtime, and in a squishy team it can it might just be the thing that holds the team together.

Resistances can be debuffed, as can Defenses in general ((FF)), but healing is 100% effective all the time and it always works the same way in pretty much any battle. It's never changing really if it is a direct heal and not an accurate to-hit heal. It just always works at it's fully efficient as opposed to possibly dropping. I also feel this way about mitigation from control sources like Freezing Rain, and Ice Slick and Oil Slick. They are always peak performance and rarely do they go wrong.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyx View Post
But Empathy is a buff set with heals as a focus. If you are referring to direct heals as a way to get green bars us then I agree that it has that, but considdering the amount of powers in the set and the limit that is placed on power selection you are a Healer.
I'll conceed you'll spend a lot of time healing, although really, if you fire off RARA you tend to have about 2(?) mins to do anything but heal, because they usually manage to make it pointless.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyx View Post
If someone in your group wants a healer, to say that they don't know what they are doing is not kosher to me. I mean regardless of whether or not you have a bubbler or other buffer, healing is a form of indirect damage mitigation. Or at least that how some perceive it, which is all subjective.
If someone in my group is looking for anything specific, outside of saying 'buffs would be nice' or 'could do with more range' and baring Mo attempts, then they need to learn you don't need anything. I will always take the first person who asks. If they ask if I need anything specific I'll usually say 'what ever you feel like.'


 

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Originally Posted by Nyx View Post
Resistances can be debuffed, as can Defenses in general ((FF)), but healing is 100% effective all the time and it always works the same way in pretty much any battle. It's never changing really if it is a direct heal and not an accurate to-hit heal.
While I admit uncommon to encounter (currently), this is not correct. Characters can be made resistant to heals. Hamidon, Hamidon's Green Mitos, and the Pestilence: Rider "unique" Rikti Assault Suit all can debuff a character's ability to be healed, and the latter two actually can trivially make you impossible to heal at all. (This is different than regen debuffs.)


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
J
Last night I went on an ITF with a bunch of regulars. We completed it in 24 minutes. Our team composition?*

Scrapper: DM/DA
Scrapper: KM/SR
Scrapper: BS/Regen
Scrapper: Kat/ElA
Night Widow: Melee Widow spec (me)
Scrapper: MA/DA
Dominator: Elec/Psi
Tanker: Mace/SD.
Pum plays things other than support classes?