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A well built MM that takes the bubbles, buffs their pets, abuses bodyguard mode and doesn't rely on a power that renders their primary mostly useless due to the need to reposition their pets and the wonky AI that pets currently have, and can still provide buffs to the team is much better then your bubbleless FFer.|
Originally Posted by magicj
What you're getting when you invite an FFer to a team is a toon that doesn't die, even in tough situations. They can go on supporting the team, mitigating damage, and providing damage for a very long time.
I'll grant you that many FFers don't know this. They skip PFF on their masterminds, grumble about knockback, etc, and pass out bubbles no one needs. But a well built, well played FFer should be up with the scrappers, brutes, and tankers in terms of survivability, all while helping the squishier toons to survive as well. |
I'll take my +75% resistance as long as I keep my pets alive, hence the bubbles.
And its funny how you can just say that a team doesn't need bubbles for defense, without any evidence OR how you assume all teams are built the same.
PS: Stop trolling this game, especially since you spent all your time in the 'other' game saying how terrible this game is. And I can see how you get your current mentality. That 'other' game prides itself around everyone just building for themselves, well we don't do that here, support/buffs sets actually exist here and your self-only mentality isn't going to change it.
"An army is a team. It lives, eats, sleeps, fights as a team. This individuality stuff is a bunch of BS." -General George Patton
-Lord Azazel
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Well, let's take a look at the original example given in the first post to this thread. The toon had all the personal MM attacks and all the FF powers except little bubbles. So what can that toon do?|
Originally Posted by Lord_Thanatos
So a what would a MM do instead of using the bubbles? Sit around and force bolt and repulsion bomb things to death? Their personal attacks are laughable, and MMs with dead pets don't do much damage.
EDIT: And you know what is better then PFF for MMs? Bodyguard mode with softcapped pets. |
● First of all, because they're not spending time giving out bubbles no one needs, they can spend they're time watching the fight and directing their attacks where they're most needed. For example, If a healer sudden gets some dangerous aggro, the MM can direct the bots at it or use Provoke to grab the aggro. That'll do a lot more to save the healer than the little bubbles will do.
● Secondly, the MM can use their personal MM attacks and vet attacks to contribute to team damage. I'll grant you this damage isn't vast, but it's better than passing out bubbles that no one needs. And the OP stated clearly the team did great with no bubbles.
● Third, the MM can use Repair and Aid Other to keep his bots operating a full force. This will again provide extra damage which is better than useless bubbles no one on the team needs.
● Fourth, by skipping the little bubbles the MM frees up two slots to take other types of support powers that may actually be useful. An example of that could be taking Recall Friend and Resurrect.
And no, body guard mode is not better than PFF. But the two compliment each other nicely. It's a relationship somewhat like an Ice Tanker with Hibernate.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
Quote:
Actually bodyguard mode IS better then PFF, it doesn't internalize your defenses and prevent you from influencing the battle, either by commanding your pets OR supporting them. Also you can't provoked while PFFed, and you do know that your pets lose supremecy as well correct? so they lose damage and tohit when you hit PFF.|
Originally Posted by magicj
Well, let's take a look at the original example given in the first post to this thread. The toon had all the personal MM attacks and all the FF powers except little bubbles. So what can that toon do?
● First of all, because they're not spending time giving out bubbles no one needs, they can spend they're time watching the fight and directing their attacks where they're most needed. For example, If a healer sudden gets some dangerous aggro, the MM can direct the bots at it or use Provoke to grab the aggro. That'll do a lot more to save the healer than the little bubbles will do. ● Secondly, the MM can use their personal MM attacks and vet attacks to contribute to team damage. I'll grant you this damage isn't vast, but it's better than passing out bubbles that no one needs. And the OP stated clearly the team did great with no bubbles. ● Third, the MM can use Repair and Aid Other to keep his bots operating a full force. This will again provide extra damage which is better than useless bubbles no one on the team needs. ● Fourth, by skipping the little bubbles the MM frees up two slots to take other types of support powers that may actually be useful. An example of that could be taking Recall Friend and Resurrect. And no, body guard mode is not better than PFF. But the two compliment each other nicely. It's a relationship somewhat like an Ice Tanker with Hibernate. |
Also pets are squishy, and have very low health, AND aid other and repair are both ST and one has a long cooldown, How are you going to outheal AoE damage since your pets are lacking in defense without the bubbles?
Resurrect? Since when is that needed if the entire team is bubbled? You do know that you can convert 3 of any insp into a wakie correct and pets cannot be rezed? And since fitness is inherent, there should be no problem to fit everything along with the bubbles if you really did want those secondary powers, so that premise is completely shot.
And lastly you keep assuming all teams are the same and need the same amount or lack thereof of support.
"An army is a team. It lives, eats, sleeps, fights as a team. This individuality stuff is a bunch of BS." -General George Patton
-Lord Azazel
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Originally Posted by magicj
Because teams don't need shields.
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You aren't actually reading anything said to you are you?
You don't need bubbles in the same way you don't "need" a tank. And you don't "need" IOs and sets. And the same way you don't "need" the incarnate slot to play.
It's not REQUIRED. However, they do make things easier on sub-optimal teams.
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| Seriously, this talk of "sub-optimal builds" is just wrong. There's not too many things that are more sub-optimal than spending your time doing things the team doesn't need. And if you're spending a significant amount of your time bubbling toons that don't need bubbles, that's what you're doing. |
Ran an all-tank ITF for Tanker Tuesday last night. Didn't require a healer OR a bubbler. Our lowest guy was in his early 40's. We simply stomped through everything.
This is NOT the sort of team I'm talking about. Please let this try to penetrate.
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| PFF and dispersion bubble are the strength of FF. |
Quote:
| Dispersion bubble prevents the team from getting stunned or held. |
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| And it does it without the FFer having to constantly spend time passing out powers like CM. PFF provides survivability to the FFer, which let's him continue to do his job when things get rough. |
What's more useful? Standing around "safe" while your teammates all die? Or being able to keep your teammates upright?
Take your time. I know that it's a tough question...
Quote:
| The little bubbles are nice powers. Nothing great, but no one ever complains about getting a bubble. But, in all honesty, if your toon needs little bubbles to do its job, your toon sucks. |
Because everyone in the game has a six-billion Inf build right?
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Whether we're dealing with trolling or ignorance, I neither know nor care. I thought it wiser to step away from the "debate" just as I would with a "New Earther" arguing that humans walked the Earth with dinosaurs 6000 years ago, I advise others to do the same.
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
Quote:
This is my last post in this thread.|
Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
Whether we're dealing with trolling or ignorance, I neither know nor care. I thought it wiser to step away from the "debate" just as I would with a "New Earther" arguing that humans walked the Earth with dinosaurs 6000 years ago, I advise others to do the same.
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I agree, and I feel bad for contributing to this thread, especially since magicj has a history of these type of arguments that all almost seem to be borderline or just actual trolling.
"An army is a team. It lives, eats, sleeps, fights as a team. This individuality stuff is a bunch of BS." -General George Patton
-Lord Azazel
Quote:
Hate to tell you, but Dispersion bubble provides (at level 50) a mag 5 Hold/Disorient/Immobilize protection.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Incorrect. Dispersion bubble reduces the likelihood of them getting stunned or held.
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My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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Simply because they didn't take the powers doesn't mean that their teammates couldn't have benefitted from the bubbles.|
Originally Posted by magicj
First of all, because they're not spending time giving out bubbles no one needs, they can spend they're time watching the fight and directing their attacks where they're most needed.
|
Quote:
| For example, If a healer sudden gets some dangerous aggro, the MM can direct the bots at it or use Provoke to grab the aggro. |
Quote:
| That'll do a lot more to save the healer than the little bubbles will do. |
Quote:
| Secondly, the MM can use their personal MM attacks and vet attacks to contribute to team damage. I'll grant you this damage isn't vast, but it's better than passing out bubbles that no one needs. And the OP stated clearly the team did great with no bubbles. |
Quote:
| Third, the MM can use Repair and Aid Other to keep his bots operating a full force. This will again provide extra damage which is better than useless bubbles no one on the team needs. |
Quote:
| Fourth, by skipping the little bubbles the MM frees up two slots to take other types of support powers that may actually be useful. An example of that could be taking Recall Friend and Resurrect. |
Quote:
| And no, body guard mode is not better than PFF. But the two compliment each other nicely. It's a relationship somewhat like an Ice Tanker with Hibernate. |
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Quote:
Again, you can STILL have it stacked on you to the point that you get mezzed (see ship raids). So I say again, it reduces the likelihood (albeit for most non-raid content is the equivalent of complete prevention).
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Hate to tell you, but Dispersion bubble provides (at level 50) a mag 5 Hold/Disorient/Immobilize protection.
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Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Quote:
OK, even though you've picked a case of extreme mitigation, I'll bite:|
Originally Posted by magicj
MaelwysAlts, a very good post and I agree with it 100%.
The only thing your missing is to note that teams _already have_ mitigation before they ever invite a bubbler. To give a simple example, Granite Tankers do not need bubbles. But every once in a blue moon they need a heal. |
Granite Tankers are not at the defence softcaps, unless they take Weave or a LARGE amount of set bonuses. A normal Granite tank (with GA slotted) has around 30% Defence, and will therefore get hit roughly 20% of the time. A Granite Tanker at the softcap will get hit roughly 5% of the time. Bubbling a Granite Tank therefore has the result of cutting the amount of incoming damage that Tanker takes by 75%.
A Granite Tanker also already has ample regeneration (effectively: Healing) in Rooted. Plus direct healing and +MaxHP in Earth's Embrace. So I could make the argument that "Granite Tankers do not need heals. But every once in a blue moon they meet something that they could better handle with more defence."
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| This example shows _why_ teams look for healers and not bubblers and it shows why there's nothing wrong with skipping the bubbles on FFers. |
Resistance Buffs follow a close second, because it takes twice the amount of Resistance buffs to equal Defence buffs, and ATs have lower effective caps for Resistance than Defence. (Example: Defenders- 75% mitigation cap on Resistance, requires +75% Resistance buffs. 95% mitigation cap on Defence, requires +45% Defence buffs)
I could understand you saying that "Defence buffs are worthless compared to ToHit or Damage buffs when a team already has enough mitigation".
But you're not saying that.
You're saying that "Heals are better than Bubbles"... or at least that's the notion which people are taking from your posts.
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| This game is 7 years old. A significant percentage of the players are vets and they know what they're doing. Tankers and scrappers are taking and slotting their shields. Controllers know how to use their controls and pets to rival the mitigation provided by tankers. Blasters have wedding band to mitigate 30% of incoming damage in emergencies. Damage mitigation is available in abundance without ever inviting an FFer. |
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| This is why all the math on mitigation, while not wrong, is irrelevant. Teams _already have_ mitigation. |
I really don't understand the stance you're taking: Heals *ARE* mitigation.
They're simply less effective mitigation for most of PvE than Defence or Resistance Buffs.
By the above argument of "All teams already have enough mitigation", you will never need Defence buffs, Resistance buffs OR Heals. Effectively a Kinetics/Sonic Attack Defender which skipped Transfusion in favour of Siphon Power would always be preferred over the best Defence/Resistance buffing toon in every situation.
I'm not disagreeing that more buffs are sometimes superfluous- as a team which is steamrolling through content is already self-sufficient... but arguing that one type of mitigation is needed when another isn't (when neither type has hit its "buff cap") is silly.
If a team isn't dying, it isn't dying...
Heals and Buffs alike will make no difference.
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This might be more valid in the end-game (although I refuse to agree that it's actually true... I think you entirely undervalue buffs versus healing when compared to the reality of how they work in the game), but for characters under level fifty who may or may not still be on SOs, a little help never hurts. Is it needed? NO.|
Originally Posted by magicj
Because teams don't need shields.
Seriously, this talk of "sub-optimal builds" is just wrong. There's not too many things that are more sub-optimal than spending your time doing things the team doesn't need. And if you're spending a significant amount of your time bubbling toons that don't need bubbles, that's what you're doing. |
But then again, neither is a healer. Teams without support can work if they play smart, even if they're lowbies with crappy enhancements.
Saying that shields are never useful is ridiculously, and easily demonstrably, wrong wrong wrong.
Proud member of Everyday Heroes (Infinity Heroes), Dream Stalkers (Infinity Villains), Devil Never Cry (Freedom Heroes), Enclave of EVIL (Pinnacle Villains), Phobia (Infinity Villains), Les Enfant Terribles (Freedom Villains), Gravy Train (Virtue Heroes), and more!
Full, detailed character list
Quote:
.....|
Originally Posted by magicj
Blasters have wedding band to mitigate 30% of incoming damage in emergencies.
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My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
Quote:
I'll try to be as clear as I can. |
Originally Posted by Maelwys
You're saying that "Heals are better than Bubbles"... or at least that's the notion which people are taking from your posts.
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Teams look for healers, not bubblers. Once you have a healer healing the damage, you don't need bubbles. The reverse isn't true.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
Quote:
Demonstratably false.|
Originally Posted by magicj
I'll try to be as clear as I can.
Teams look for healers, not bubblers. Once you have a healer healing the damage, you don't need bubbles. The reverse isn't true. |
See below.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Maelwys
OK, even though you've picked a case of extreme mitigation, I'll bite:
Granite Tankers are not at the defence softcaps, unless they take Weave or a LARGE amount of set bonuses. A normal Granite tank (with GA slotted) has around 30% Defence, and will therefore get hit roughly 20% of the time. A Granite Tanker at the softcap will get hit roughly 5% of the time. Bubbling a Granite Tank therefore has the result of cutting the amount of incoming damage that Tanker takes by 75%. A Granite Tanker also already has ample regeneration (effectively: Healing) in Rooted. Plus direct healing and +MaxHP in Earth's Embrace. So I could make the argument that "Granite Tankers do not need heals. But every once in a blue moon they meet something that they could better handle with more defence." |
Granite Tanker
+ 3 Defence SOs and 3 Resistance SOs in "Granite Armor"
+ 3 Heal SOs in "Rooted"
+ 1 Heal SO in "Health"
+ 1 Resistance SO in "Stone Skin"
= Gets Hit 18.8% of the time (31.2% Defence to all save Psi)
= Resists 90% of S/L Damage, 78% of all others save Psi.
= Regenerates 27.25 HP per second
Incoming DPS needed to overcome 27.25 HP/Sec Regeneration and Resistances:
272.5 Smashing/Lethal
123.9 Fire/Cold/Energy/Negative
Incoming DPS needed to overcome the above, plus 31.2% Defence:
1449.5 Smashing/Lethal
659.0 Fire/Cold/Energy/Negative
Incoming DPS needed to overcome the above, plus softcapped Defence:
5450 Smashing/Lethal
2478 Fire/Cold/Energy/Negative
Difference in Damage between 31.2% and Softcapped Defence:
4000.5 Smashing/Lethal
1819 Fire/Cold/Energy/Negative
Can you heal for 4000.5 HP every second?
Because that's how many HP points worth of healing softcapping a standard Granite Tanker will save you.
And that's not even counting +HP accolades or Earth's Embrace...
I just wanted to say that this is my favorite thread since the Blue Centurion one here.
Bubbling works well even for def capped allies since it mitigates the risk of cascading defense failure in certain situations, and you can pretty much ignore healing or resurrecting your pesky allies until the next round of buffage.
For most teams bubbling may be unnecessary but once they are uber bubbled you can twist and contort them into doing your bidding...like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpgqMWfggLo
The only situation I can think where an emp is better than a bubbler is during a hami raid.
Quote:
So, again I ask for the relevance of the math. By this I mean there is no question that you can run math and show incoming damage > healing, but how often does this actually happen to Granite tankers in game?|
Originally Posted by Maelwys
Demonstratably false.
See below. |
Have you ever seen a Granite tanker that's getting healing die? It's an extremely rare event.
(But it just so happens I did see a Granite tanker die on the first LGTF of the two I ran the other night to test the effects of bubbles. He was bubbled with power boosted bubbles raising him almost to the defense cap all by themselves. He got one-shotted by the Clockwork AV in the first mission.)
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
Quote:
You can't Power Boost bubbles. Also, the Clockwork King does Psi damage. What doesn't a Granite Tanker have resistance to? Also it's an AV. They can get through defense easier than any enemy in the game. Terrible example is terrible.
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Originally Posted by magicj
(But it just so happens I did see a Granite tanker die on the first LGTF of the two I ran the other night to test the effects of bubbles. He was bubbled with power boosted bubbles raising him almost to the defense cap all by themselves. He got one-shotted by the Clockwork AV in the first mission.)
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My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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I'd advice it too. You're not going to win this debate because you're wrong. Every single in-game example presented has supported my view, including those presented by folks who believe FFers should take the little bubbles.
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Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
Whether we're dealing with trolling or ignorance, I neither know nor care. I thought it wiser to step away from the "debate" just as I would with a "New Earther" arguing that humans walked the Earth with dinosaurs 6000 years ago, I advise others to do the same.
|
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
Quote:
No they haven't, you just won't listen to anyone when they tell you otherwise. There's a difference.
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Originally Posted by magicj
I'd advice it too. You're not going to win this debate because you're wrong. Every single in-game example presented has supported my view, including those presented by folks who believe FFers should take the little bubbles.
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My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
Quote:
Lolz, I'm not trying to win any debate. There is no debate, there's you repeating the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over. Congrats on your "win", at least in your mind.
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Originally Posted by magicj
I'd advice it too. You're not going to win this debate because you're wrong. Every single in-game example presented has supported my view, including those presented by folks who believe FFers should take the little bubbles.
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Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
Quote:
Very rarely, which is a relevant point when comparing mitigation buffs to damage buffs, but completely irrelevant when comparing Heals to Resistance/Defence Buffs. |
Originally Posted by magicj
So, again I ask for the relevance of the math. By this I mean there is no question that you can run math and show incoming damage > healing, but how often does this actually happen to Granite tankers in game?
|
This takes us once again into the territory of "you can reach the point where you have enough mitigation", but where we need to remember that "mitigation" includes both Heals and Resistance/Defence Buffs.
Quote:
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Have you ever seen a Granite tanker that's getting healing die? It's an extremely rare event. (But it just so happens I did see a Granite tanker die on the first LGTF of the two I ran the other night to test the effects of bubbles. He was bubbled with power boosted bubbles raising him almost to the defense cap all by themselves. He got one-shotted by the Clockwork AV in the first mission.) |
One-shotted implies they were hit immediately, which would leave no time to heal them.
FF grants Positional defence, which covers almost all forms of Psionic Damage attacks. Power Boosted, the Tanker would have been sitting at close to 40% from the Bubbles alone, and higher with Dispersion Bubble.
The Random Number Generator can be a fickle mistress, but if something is powerful enough to one-shot you, you stand a better chance of avoiding that big hit with FF buffs than you do by relying on a healer whose heals are still animating as you faceplant. Even versus Non-positional attacks, you'd be no worse off.
Quote:
You most certainly can.|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
You can't Power Boost bubbles.
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Contoller's Power Boost: DEF(All Types, Defense, Melee, Ranged, AOE) +122.925% for 15s
Defender's Power Build Up: DEF(All Types, Defense, Melee, Ranged, AOE) +98.34% for 12.5s
MM's Power Boost: DEF(All Types, Defense, Melee, Ranged, AOE) +65.56% for 15s
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
Avoiding the rest of the debate entirely, yes they can.
I just want to also point out that the supposed clamor for nothing but healing all the time... yeah, inexperienced pugs tend to look for healers, but in my personal experience, I find I get a team just as frequently when I'm on a bubbler. It's very rare that I even get a comment about there not being healing when I'm on my FF Defender... and the times I do, it's just about always a new player who has no issues as soon as I tell them what I do for the team.
I shield everyone up, everyone suddenly goes from being in the awkward tends-to-die state that can be the norm for lowbies, to a much sturdier group that is plowing through missions at raised difficulties.
Meanwhile, I'm spending the majority of my time blasting away, because shielding up my teammates occasionally takes a lot less of my time than, say, constantly watching health bars and keeping track of whose turn it is for Fortitude and Adrenalin Boost on my Empathy/Electric. I rarely have time to do much more than try to do some end drain with Short Circuit and maybe take out a runner who's almost dead. (ETA: Of course, as I said before, a Force Field Mastermind has some valid reasons to not be shielding everything all the time... but not enough to skip the shields.)
I also should point out that if there's enough damage to one-shot a tanker, there's not a damn thing you can do as an empath but hope to hit Absorb Pain at the exact right moment. Good chance they'll be dead in a few seconds anyway. I'd value a force fielder much more at that point.
I'm not saying that my Empath is useless. Far from it, I think they bring a lot to my team. But so does my Force Fielder, no matter how much certain people in this thread want to put their fingers in their ears and not listen.
Proud member of Everyday Heroes (Infinity Heroes), Dream Stalkers (Infinity Villains), Devil Never Cry (Freedom Heroes), Enclave of EVIL (Pinnacle Villains), Phobia (Infinity Villains), Les Enfant Terribles (Freedom Villains), Gravy Train (Virtue Heroes), and more!
Full, detailed character list
The little bubbles are nice powers. Nothing great, but no one ever complains about getting a bubble. But, in all honesty, if your toon needs little bubbles to do its job, your toon sucks.
Then why the **** are they in the game as a selectable powerset?!
Your opinion is not fact. It never will be. If a toon needs bubbles to do it's job, maybe it's a Dominator! Maybe it's a Fire Controller! Those two characters will have HUGE AoE's that may or may not be inside the taunt aura of the team's tank! Maybe it's a Fire Tanker, or a Shield user, both of which will gain massive amounts of survivability from extra defense. Bubbles help no matter what, and getting them is always a boon, regardless of what you may think. They keep the team alive longer through defensive mitigation and they can make a WORLD of difference on a defense-based character.
Your arrogance and belief that your opinion is fact is not only extremely short-sighted but incredibly frustrating.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."