Quote:
ELM has only 1 more AoE than SS. LR is on a 90s recharge which makes it 'ok' for farming. Thunderstrike is a decent AoE but the cast time of 3.3s is terrible and the radius is less than half of Footstomp (TS does recharge in 18s, 2s faster than FS). |
Originally Posted by BellyButtonJelly
What makes a good farmer? Lots of AOE that does good dmg and there are other sets that give you more AOE options than what SS can offer you.
Build up an elec/fire then come talk to me about who knows what. |
The true test would be two brutes, one SS/Fire and Elec/Fire and both using the same Epic powers. Have them each run the same map 3 times and note the average time.
Listen Lyger sorry about being so harsh on you all that time ago. Please accept my apologies. I should not have been so harsh I responed poorly to your post I could have done better than I did.
AND...
I am done, I give up, I don't really care if the rest of you all think ss/fire is the best. If you are happy with your toon fantastic I am happy with mine.
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Originally Posted by LygerZero
I suck. Seriously. I'm sorry. I'll try better. Don't listen to me or look at my builds. I'm embarrassed
 *Joins Farmaholics anonymous* |
Quote:
Part of the problem is that Elec/ doesn't actually have a regular farming-friendly good AoE damage attack.|
Originally Posted by Clouded
ELM has only 1 more AoE than SS. LR is on a 90s recharge which makes it 'ok' for farming. Thunderstrike is a decent AoE but the cast time of 3.3s is terrible and the radius is less than half of Footstomp (TS does recharge in 18s, 2s faster than FS).
The true test would be two brutes, one SS/Fire and Elec/Fire and both using the same Epic powers. Have them each run the same map 3 times and note the average time. |
Elec's Positives:
Lightning Rod is definitely Elec's big player at large damage, large radius, 16 Targets hit... but it has a very long recharge time so that even at very high levels of +recharge, it's only up for every mob if you're farming at a slow pace.
Thunderstrike is rubbish for farming, far too slow animation and IIRC only part of its damage is AoE (this is certainly true for the Blaster version - the Smashing component is ST).
Chain Induction probably counts for something. Its "chaining" component does comparatively low damage, however functionally it's pretty much an AoE with a 5 target cap. Jacob's ladder is actually fairly decent too if you can use melee cones - but again, it's got a 5 target cap and in BBJ's own words (Please excuse the obvious antagonism; I'm merely quoting): "Lyger has no clue about farming. What "cone's" are you talking about Lyger? There is one attack classified cone "Jacob's ladder" which no one takes for farming which means that there are no cones in an elec/fire build for farming."
/Fire's Positives
Burn is superb, and fills is as a "regular AoE" - but again, the bulk of the damage is front-loaded and only has a 5 target cap...
Then you've also got the Damage Aura, Consume, and Fiery Embrace. The last one (FE) tends to work better when spread over multiple regularly-activated powers as it essentially adds "Proc Damage" to every attack for its duration. This means it favours Footstomp (slightly) over Lightning Rod.
SS's Positives
Footstomp is large damage over a 15 Foot Radius, with a target cap of 10.
Although Footstomp has a larger radius, it also synergises pretty well with Burn.
What about Epics?
At this point everyone usually raves about Fireball, but examine the Mu Patron pool:
Seperately, Fireball is better than Ball Lightning, but taken together with Electrifying Fences (which has a 10 Target cap - exactly the same as Footstomp), Mu beats Pyre comfortably. And you get a summon-and-forget pet to contribute extra damage too. Mu wins by MILES.
----------------------
With this in mind, theorycrafting would suggest that a SS/Fire/Mu with Footstomp, Burn, Elec Fences and Ball Lightning, plus Rage and a Striker pet is probably the best farming Brute available. Simply put: If you're well slotted then there just isn't going to be a time when you don't have an AoE available, and as we all know, the more you are attacking, the more fury you'll be generating.
An Elec/SS/Mu will come close, certainly, but due to the fact that Elec lacks Footstomp and Rage, it'll be relying on only three regular AoEs for most spawns (which means lower damage output over time than the SS due to no rage and one less regular AoE) and using Build Up + Lightning Rod for "one hit kills" when they're up. Whilst the one-hit-kills Elec can pull off are fairly spectacular, at that point there is only a few seconds difference between kililng a mob from via damage from Elec's [Build Up + Lightning Rod + AoE] and doing the same damage from SS's [Regular four AoEs + Rage]. And mobs that die in one hit don't keep your fury topped up, so going into the NEXT spawn, the SS will be slightly better off.
I'm certain that BBJ and certain others will disagree with the above "in practice", but the above is pretty much the theory behind why most on these boards tend to view SS as the better powerset choice for farming compared to Elec.
Personally I don't use the mu pet for farming, but don't forget Rage adds a bit of damage too, and double stacked is EASY. Timing it to fire off right before it crashes saves a double crash causing 1 damage per target too often.
I plan on making a SS/Fire/Mu Brute just to test it out and, well, because it seems designed for goodness.
That said, the LR recharge on my Elec/SD scrapper is up on or around every 30 seconds. Now, I'm not looking to compare it to the output of Xxx/Xxx/Xxx AT in farming, but that's not a terrible recharge time, expecially since it coincides with Build Up and Shield Charge.
I roll into a mob, get their attention for a second, Build Up, SC, LR, then whack the bosses until the trio is charged again. Move to the next mob and take out the minions and LTs again.
Eventually, I take out bosses, if I need to, but 30 seconds a mob isn't ultra slow.
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This is the part the thread is missing, assuming high recharge, LR is up every 30 seconds.|
Originally Posted by Erin Go Braugh
I plan on making a SS/Fire/Mu Brute just to test it out and, well, because it seems designed for goodness.
That said, the LR recharge on my Elec/SD scrapper is up on or around every 30 seconds. Now, I'm not looking to compare it to the output of Xxx/Xxx/Xxx AT in farming, but that's not a terrible recharge time, expecially since it coincides with Build Up and Shield Charge. I roll into a mob, get their attention for a second, Build Up, SC, LR, then whack the bosses until the trio is charged again. Move to the next mob and take out the minions and LTs again. Eventually, I take out bosses, if I need to, but 30 seconds a mob isn't ultra slow. |
Now, since LR is the ONLY bit elec/ has to flaunt, since as mentioned all of it's other AoE's are fairly garbage
So the question is "Is SS/Fire/MU's sustained dps great enough to kill an entire mob in less than 30 seconds"
The answer? in a word? yes. I have an SS/WP/Mu (and before someone throws up a thread, yes, I did ask for help because her build is balls -- that actually supports the argument here) Half fury, double rage, footstomp takes 60% of a minions health (~300 damage); Electric fences and ball lightning do the rest.
With just hasten + multi-strike (Yes, I mentioned her build was balls, right?) It's up every 9 seconds. FE lasts twenty seconds, that's two full FS->EF->BL chains, and noted with that much
omph: behind it, FS will come close to one-shotting minions. Burn and BA are just icing on the cakeNow here's the fun part: Single target. Elec/ is known for it's terrible ST, s'why stalkers comment on how AS actually :improves: ST dps outside of hide.
SS is known for it's incredibly STRONG ST, KO blow will do ~700 damage in the same scenario earlier (double rage, 50% fury) that's half a bosses health, punch + haymaker do roughly the same. So while you are waitingo n yuor AoE to cooldown, you've just killed a boss. maybe two, again, not sure how big FE's bonus is.
So, magic logic, 20 seconds to burn down LT's/minions with your aoE combo, roughly that long for two bosses.
As opposed to 30 seconds between LR's, and dealing with Elec/'s terrible ST in the meantime (and thunderstrike, but lol thunderstrike)
TLDR; It's not about how big the shiny numbers you throw up are, it's about how consistantly you can throw them up. SS kills a mob every 20 seconds with it's 'mediocre' AoE, Elec, dependant on LR, takes 30 seconds minimum -- if only due to it's cooldown.
SS kills 3 mobs in the time it takes Elec to kill 2 -- S'like I used to tell groups in the old days, Invincible is better than Invulnerable, because while the mobs may be higher level, there are more of them on invincible, more bodies outweighs the exp gain from more exp per body.
If your LR only comes up every 30 seconds "you're doing it wrong". TS is not useless. 
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Originally Posted by Ryougi
This is the part the thread is missing, assuming high recharge, LR is up every 30 seconds.
Now, since LR is the ONLY bit elec/ has to flaunt, since as mentioned all of it's other AoE's are fairly garbage So the question is "Is SS/Fire/MU's sustained dps great enough to kill an entire mob in less than 30 seconds" The answer? in a word? yes. I have an SS/WP/Mu (and before someone throws up a thread, yes, I did ask for help because her build is balls -- that actually supports the argument here) Half fury, double rage, footstomp takes 60% of a minions health (~300 damage); Electric fences and ball lightning do the rest. With just hasten + multi-strike (Yes, I mentioned her build was balls, right?) It's up every 9 seconds. FE lasts twenty seconds, that's two full FS->EF->BL chains, and noted with that much omph: behind it, FS will come close to one-shotting minions. Burn and BA are just icing on the cakeNow here's the fun part: Single target. Elec/ is known for it's terrible ST, s'why stalkers comment on how AS actually :improves: ST dps outside of hide. SS is known for it's incredibly STRONG ST, KO blow will do ~700 damage in the same scenario earlier (double rage, 50% fury) that's half a bosses health, punch + haymaker do roughly the same. So while you are waitingo n yuor AoE to cooldown, you've just killed a boss. maybe two, again, not sure how big FE's bonus is. So, magic logic, 20 seconds to burn down LT's/minions with your aoE combo, roughly that long for two bosses. As opposed to 30 seconds between LR's, and dealing with Elec/'s terrible ST in the meantime (and thunderstrike, but lol thunderstrike) TLDR; It's not about how big the shiny numbers you throw up are, it's about how consistantly you can throw them up. SS kills a mob every 20 seconds with it's 'mediocre' AoE, Elec, dependant on LR, takes 30 seconds minimum -- if only due to it's cooldown. SS kills 3 mobs in the time it takes Elec to kill 2 -- S'like I used to tell groups in the old days, Invincible is better than Invulnerable, because while the mobs may be higher level, there are more of them on invincible, more bodies outweighs the exp gain from more exp per body. |
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Honest to god please tell me this isn't your best troll attempt|
Originally Posted by BellyButtonJelly
If your LR only comes up every 30 seconds "you're doing it wrong". TS is not useless.
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'doing it wrong' is a stretch.
3 50 recharge IO's + hasten + 5 LOTG's = 29.76 seconds, and you've pretty much hit the hell of diminishing returns by that point, adding five purple sets drops it to 26.76.
in other words, 25-30 seconds is the BEST you are going to get.
Not going to go crazy with the math, so just doing what I can in mids atm: 67.5% global recharge -- reasonable amount, assuming you want to softcap and aren't going for hundreds of recharge bonuses
27.07s recharge (hasten + 94.93 (IO's, assuming you've frankenslotted for max recharge) + 67.5%) on LR
Same amonut of recharge?
9.773s recharge on ball lightning
6.108s recharge on electrifying fences
6.016s on footstomp.
ball lightning, twice a FE
EF and FS three times a FE.
You can use the entire chain 3 times per LR (FS and EF four times)
Rage is triple stacked, FS does 215.03 damage -before- fury.
LR, according to mids (and granted, probably wrong) does 265.7 (372.47 with build up) -- so, furyless, SS is about 2/3rds of your LR, with fury this'll change because of LR's higher base damage, but the point stands, that's formidable..
Oh and TS is not useless, it's just uselessi n comparison to FS
Same setup as before: 7.01s recharge, 111.74 AoE damage (only the energy portion is AoE), under half the area and twice the cast time of FS.
*breathes* Part 2!
You can go BUT MY ELEC/FIRE KILLS FAST!11! all you want, the numbers don't lie. SS's -sustained- dps, thanks to FS doing roughly double the damage of TS, and the fact that rage is like buildup on steroids that stacks -- is much higher, and it's now about how fast you can kill a SINGLE group, it's about how fast you can -clear a map-
and in clearing a map, being able to take down group after group without being hindered by the recharge on your 'big' power (LR) is important.
and one last tidbit of fun, cap on recharge is 400%, assuming you have ULTIMATE SUPRA buffs, your powers will recharge in 1/5th of the time.
LS: 18 seconds (90/5)
FS: 4 seconds (20/5)
Now assuming you've hit some sort of group with 7 kins who are rubbing themselves all over you (as that many SB's is about hte only way your hitting that much recharge anyhow) you are at the damage cap! wee!
LR: 133.45 * 7.5 (100% base + 750% in buffs, if I am mistaken and the 100% isn't counted its 1134.41) 1000.95 damage
FS: 59.22 * 7.5 (again if mistaken math it's 503.37) = 444.15 * 4 (how many times you are using it in that same timespan) 1776.6 damage in two seconds less than it requires your LR to recharge
But wait Ryo, what about targets! LR hits 6 more!
Lets assume you are magically in a full saturated group, 16 targets, that somehow survives the entire ordeal
LR 1000.95 * 16 = 16015.2 damage
FS: 1776.6 * 10 = 17766 damage.
Over The same period of time, even somehow magically surrounded by more targets than it can handle, SS does more damage (And in reality, almost any mob in the game would die after two FS's, so you are realistically hitting 20 targets with SS)
Now, this is a SOLO farming thread, so how's this matter?
It proves that under optimal conditions, SS does more sustained dps; but SS has an ace in the hole: Rage, triple stacked that's 240% + 90% + (~270%, 100% fury is rare, after all) = 600%, 150% off of the cap by itself.
Meanwhile LR is stuck with 440%, and only for the 10 seconds BU is up. (Rage is up for 120 seconds gents, 20 of that is triple stacked, 80 or so double stacked.)
Yes, you can moan all you want that MY FARMER IS THE BESTEST!11!1!11! but the math clearly proves that in a situation like farming where sustained dps is more important than burst dps -- SS wins, hands down.
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SS/FA/Mu is my farmer - If you aren't keeping Rage double stacked+, you are doing it wrong.
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Originally Posted by BellyButtonJelly
Yes and you just made my point SS/fire is not a great awesome farmer because you have to support it with the same stuff any other toon could grab. So ya the whole reason you grab SS is for FS+Rage.. which turns out to be a lousy combo in a farm. Many people who praise the SS/Fire also don't bother using Rage in the farm to avoid the crash.
What makes a good farmer? Lots of AOE that does good dmg and there are other sets that give you more AOE options than what SS can offer you. Build up an elec/fire then come talk to me about who knows what. |
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Thank you.
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Originally Posted by Ryougi
*breathes* Part 2!
You can go BUT MY ELEC/FIRE KILLS FAST!11! all you want, the numbers don't lie. SS's -sustained- dps, thanks to FS doing roughly double the damage of TS, and the fact that rage is like buildup on steroids that stacks -- is much higher, and it's now about how fast you can kill a SINGLE group, it's about how fast you can -clear a map- and in clearing a map, being able to take down group after group without being hindered by the recharge on your 'big' power (LR) is important. and one last tidbit of fun, cap on recharge is 400%, assuming you have ULTIMATE SUPRA buffs, your powers will recharge in 1/5th of the time. LS: 18 seconds (90/5) FS: 4 seconds (20/5) Now assuming you've hit some sort of group with 7 kins who are rubbing themselves all over you (as that many SB's is about hte only way your hitting that much recharge anyhow) you are at the damage cap! wee! LR: 133.45 * 7.5 (100% base + 750% in buffs, if I am mistaken and the 100% isn't counted its 1134.41) 1000.95 damage FS: 59.22 * 7.5 (again if mistaken math it's 503.37) = 444.15 * 4 (how many times you are using it in that same timespan) 1776.6 damage in two seconds less than it requires your LR to recharge But wait Ryo, what about targets! LR hits 6 more! Lets assume you are magically in a full saturated group, 16 targets, that somehow survives the entire ordeal LR 1000.95 * 16 = 16015.2 damage FS: 1776.6 * 10 = 17766 damage. Over The same period of time, even somehow magically surrounded by more targets than it can handle, SS does more damage (And in reality, almost any mob in the game would die after two FS's, so you are realistically hitting 20 targets with SS) Now, this is a SOLO farming thread, so how's this matter? It proves that under optimal conditions, SS does more sustained dps; but SS has an ace in the hole: Rage, triple stacked that's 240% + 90% + (~270%, 100% fury is rare, after all) = 600%, 150% off of the cap by itself. Meanwhile LR is stuck with 440%, and only for the 10 seconds BU is up. (Rage is up for 120 seconds gents, 20 of that is triple stacked, 80 or so double stacked.) Yes, you can moan all you want that MY FARMER IS THE BESTEST!11!1!11! but the math clearly proves that in a situation like farming where sustained dps is more important than burst dps -- SS wins, hands down. |
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Np, just surprised no one else did it first, took me all of 5 minutes with mids to pull out those numbers. Opinions have bias, numbers do not.
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Originally Posted by Pyro_Master_NA
Thank you.
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I have raced the following builds in ambushes vs 54s:|
Originally Posted by Black_Aftermath
Hey All,
I know that some people look down on farming, or think it's boring. I however have come to enjoy some of the AE farms. My Arch/MM blaster loads of fun but is more of a second farmer and not the main attraction. So, I've come to look for the Main Attraction. Returning from a year long hiatus, Brutes and Fire/Kin trollers used to be top dog. I can afford the most expensive builds, so no holds barred, what is my best bet? I assume it's a Brute, but I'll go with whatever AT necessary. |
Fire/fire/fire tank
Fire/fire/fire brute
Elec/fire/fire brute
elec/fire/mu brute
spines/fire scrapper
fire/ss/fire tank
I have beaten them all with my SS/Fire/Mu. The closest rival came 2 minutes and 20 seconds within my time. Rage, especially double stacked makes a huge difference. I will admit, outside of vs fire dmg, this build can be such an aggro monster and be SOOOO squishy.
My build has a global recharge of 80%, no accolades, yep, no accolades whatsoever. I don't sit and wait for Foot stomp. I always have, at different times or at the same time, burn, ball lightning, fences, and foot stomp available. The dmg is mouth watering once fury is even at just 60 percent. I don't even run blazing aura. I do enough dmg without throwing all that end away. I pack no blues when going in. I only take them while in mish because I want to make room for red drops (hoping they drop).
With fire/kin trollers, we can not race vs the same class of opponents all the time, fire/kin trollers will be massacred in ambushes. I have done "Battle for TV" and BM at lvl 52s and set for 6-8 people, once the brute reaches about 40 or 45 fury, he's way too fast, one ball lighting and foot stomp wipes almost all, but if burn begins the animation, I can rest assure the spawn will be cleared and I can move on. If SS/Fire/Mu can drop 54s very quickly with just 3 attacks, I can just look at 52s from a distance and they become ashes.
So, for efficiency and speed vs a very limited type of dmg (fire dmg) vs 54s I will give the vote to SS/Fire/Mu brute.
Repeat Offenders forever !
Make all IO's available in Paragon Market! NCSoft, the chinese are making BIG money selling influence and other stuff in the game. Best way to stop them = make the paragon market a place to buy all IO's and perhaps other things as well.
Can anyone tell me what an ambush farm is? Is that anything like a monkey farm?
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a *real* useful invention. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...t-sarcasm.html
An ambush farm is a form of farm in AE. Generally right at the start of the mission there is a boss or 2 and by damaging them you will get ambushed. If you can survive it it's generally the most effective way to farm, if you do the right rolls.
It is this form of mission that i mostly run on my SS/fire/mu. On +4/x8 Bosses, thanks you some sweet macro's for making reds, i average about 1400 tickets every mish and finish as i get 1st rage crash.
"I have ridden the mighty moon worm!"
-Al Gore
Fiery Aura is only good for farming, I'm cereal
@Caucasiafro
You forgot the chance for +Recharge in TS which fires pretty much all the time for me. My global recharge in mids is at 75%. You are also leaving out my alpha slot(Spiritual). I don't franken slot either then I again I can't be sure what you are talking about, I use the +recharge in TS.. I guess that makes me a minor frankensloter. Also I use FA, FE, BURN, BU, LR, TS, BL, and even CI. I can get 3 sometimes 4 attacks off on one buildup and I am hitting more targets with my LR in its larger radius.
RAGE does not do so well triple stacked I don't even think its worth it to do it so you can throw that calc out the window. Someone already did the math on that one. Or am I just plain wrong about that?
If I turn on rage, the first crash will occur 120 seconds later and last 10 seconds. Right? If rage fires again at 60 seconds, then I still get the rage crash from second 120 to second 130. 50 seconds later... ohhhh. Ooo, that's bad for the doublestackers.
Really what makes the most sense for Rage..? is it double or single that is really the most effcient over time?
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Originally Posted by Ryougi
Honest to god please tell me this isn't your best troll attempt
'doing it wrong' is a stretch. 3 50 recharge IO's + hasten + 5 LOTG's = 29.76 seconds, and you've pretty much hit the hell of diminishing returns by that point, adding five purple sets drops it to 26.76. in other words, 25-30 seconds is the BEST you are going to get. Not going to go crazy with the math, so just doing what I can in mids atm: 67.5% global recharge -- reasonable amount, assuming you want to softcap and aren't going for hundreds of recharge bonuses 27.07s recharge (hasten + 94.93 (IO's, assuming you've frankenslotted for max recharge) + 67.5%) on LR Same amonut of recharge? 9.773s recharge on ball lightning 6.108s recharge on electrifying fences 6.016s on footstomp. ball lightning, twice a FE EF and FS three times a FE. You can use the entire chain 3 times per LR (FS and EF four times) Rage is triple stacked, FS does 215.03 damage -before- fury. LR, according to mids (and granted, probably wrong) does 265.7 (372.47 with build up) -- so, furyless, SS is about 2/3rds of your LR, with fury this'll change because of LR's higher base damage, but the point stands, that's formidable.. Oh and TS is not useless, it's just uselessi n comparison to FS Same setup as before: 7.01s recharge, 111.74 AoE damage (only the energy portion is AoE), under half the area and twice the cast time of FS. |
And you forget or don't correctly understand how the FFB proc works. It has a suppression period, it's not going to give you +100% recharge all the time.
Besides, the FFB proc would go off far more reliably in Footstomp. Has a bigger AoE so you can hit more targets, faster animating and is generally a better AoE power.
Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
It's no use guys. BBJ WIll never get it (and I'm assuming he doesnt, but thanks for no long quoting him for me to see. lol)
To use a quote from the mothman prohpecies "You're smarter than a cockroach, ever try talking to one of those?"
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Im not 100% sure but it may not have a suppression period anymore (or maybe it just different than it was). But the rest of what you said is true, Footstomp is just that good. |
Originally Posted by Silas
And you forget or don't correctly understand how the FFB proc works. It has a suppression period, it's not going to give you +100% recharge all the time.
Besides, the FFB proc would go off far more reliably in Footstomp. Has a bigger AoE so you can hit more targets, faster animating and is generally a better AoE power. |
Anyway, does anyone know if the proc fires before or after an attack animation? Im curious and cant test it out right now *sigh.*
"I have ridden the mighty moon worm!"
-Al Gore
Fiery Aura is only good for farming, I'm cereal
@Caucasiafro
I guess you "would" know right? Since you use it in TS?
You know it would not be so hard for you all if you would just admit that you embellish the truth about ss/fire. Sure its great but you all make it sound so much better than it is. I guess I would think that to if that's all I knew.. mm no maybe not.. I like to try different things.. unklike the ss/fire ONLY community.
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Originally Posted by Silas
And you forget or don't correctly understand how the FFB proc works. It has a suppression period, it's not going to give you +100% recharge all the time.
Besides, the FFB proc would go off far more reliably in Footstomp. Has a bigger AoE so you can hit more targets, faster animating and is generally a better AoE power. |
It fires as soon as the attack hits. This would make it after.
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Originally Posted by ultrawatt
Im not 100% sure but it may not have a suppression period anymore (or maybe it just different than it was). But the rest of what you said is true, Footstomp is just that good.
Anyway, does anyone know if the proc fires before or after an attack animation? Im curious and cant test it out right now *sigh.* |
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Originally Posted by BellyButtonJelly
You forgot the chance for +Recharge in TS which fires pretty much all the time for me. My global recharge in mids is at 75%. You are also leaving out my alpha slot(Spiritual). I don't franken slot either then I again I can't be sure what you are talking about, I use the +recharge in TS.. I guess that makes me a minor frankensloter. Also I use FA, FE, BURN, BU, LR, TS, BL, and even CI. I can get 3 sometimes 4 attacks off on one buildup and I am hitting more targets with my LR in its larger radius.
RAGE does not do so well triple stacked I don't even think its worth it to do it so you can throw that calc out the window. Someone already did the math on that one. Or am I just plain wrong about that? If I turn on rage, the first crash will occur 120 seconds later and last 10 seconds. Right? If rage fires again at 60 seconds, then I still get the rage crash from second 120 to second 130. 50 seconds later... ohhhh. Ooo, that's bad for the doublestackers. Really what makes the most sense for Rage..? is it double or single that is really the most effcient over time? |
The point you are missing on the recharge, is there is this wonderful thing in math called diminishing returns. "The more you get of something, the less it's worth"
hasten + 3recharge IO's +67 % = 227% recharge in that power.
IT drops it from 90 seconds to 27 seconds, a 63 second gain
if I you were to go from 227 -> 400, it'd drop from 27 to 18, a.. 9 second gain.
Now, assuming you have teh 100% up EVERY TIME the suppression period ends, you are looking at a ~50% total gain, that's just rough math in my head, and someone can correct me. either way, it's still sitting at about 24 seconds, which, otoh, doesn't change my calculations at all. (EF/FS 4 times an LR, BL 3 times an LR)
and as noted, you can easily add the same proc to FS and get a much more reliable boost, so.. moot point is moot? Second post proved that with everything capped, SS still does more damage over the same period of time.
As for the rage, that's.. hilarious, cute even.
Bu is 80% for 10 seconds
Rage is 80% for 120 seconds with 10 seconds of no damage. Net gain? Rage is 11 times as effective as BU, double rage? 18 times. IT crashes because it's so effective it makes buildup look like a little girl in comparison, it's called balancing.
That said, you forgot procs are completely uneffected by the crash, slot those bad boys up and keep swining to maintain fury -- I do ~200 damage a crash with them.
(Also to answer your question, some psuedo math: 50 damage every 2 second unrealistic, but it's just flat math to show something, not a test, rage by itself: 50*1.8*60 - 5400 damage; 50 * ((1.8*40) + (2.6*25)) = 6400. ((Techinically there should be another 1.8*60 because you have 10 seconds of crash at 120, then another 60 seconds of 80% boost)
Either way, the same situation with build up.
50*(1.8*20) (Assuming you've twinked out os it's up every 30 seconds, that's four times in a 120 second period, attacks every 2 seconds splits that in half = 1800.
Now for some even more mindboggling psuedomath! How's the crash work ryo!
Build up, over 130 seconds: (130, so we can work the crash in)
50 damage every 2 second for 90 of it, 90 (50*1.8) for 40 of it.
(50*90)+(90*1.8) = 4050
Rage, single and double stacked over 130 seconds are as above.
5400 single stacked
6400 double stacked
net loss of 450 damage double stacked, (50*1.8*5 -- 90 damage every 2 seconds for 10 seconds) 250 single stacked. Either way, double stacked wins, and they both completely destroy build up.
Of course this is completely unrealistic, I don't think there is any build in the game with a full attack chain that has no gaps and no attacks under 2 seconds animating; and build up/rage have animation times which skewer the numbers
But as I said, flat math to illustrate a point -- once again, you can throw your hands up and go MY BUILD IS THE BESTEST all you want, numbers can't lie.
Quote:
I'm not embellishing the truth, I'm giving hard numbers, which are. .completely refuting everything you say, you are just flailing and going LALALALLA I DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT|
Originally Posted by BellyButtonJelly
I guess you "would" know right? Since you use it in TS?
You know it would not be so hard for you all if you would just admit that you embellish the truth about ss/fire. Sure its great but you all make it sound so much better than it is. I guess I would think that to if that's all I knew.. mm no maybe not.. I like to try different things.. unklike the ss/fire ONLY community. |
I don't even HAVE an SS/fire, though doing this math is seriously making me want to make one.
All of these numbers are pulled straight from mids. all of the math is just looking up caps on paragon wiki and doing grade school algebra and arithmetic.
and go ahead, try something different, we never said it was the ONLY build, if you'll notice the thread title.
Very Best Farmer
We're answering the guys question, mathmatically, SS/Fire has a much higher sustained dps than Elec/fire, therefore is the better farmer.
Elec fire works for you, pishposh, happy for you, but it's not the best, therefore it's not answering his question
So are you.. sorry what suppresion period? Also again you forgot the alpha slot.. there are no diminishing returns there. Yes I always have an attack up
Your math is cool but in it you forget that it never plays as well as your math says because they are just numbers.. and you can make your numbers say whatever you want but they do not apply to what its like to play. It's as you say "completely unrealistic"
I think that about sums up your math to(LOL @triple stacked rage.. ya you embellish). So I should assume that your build has FS at about 8 seconds or is it 9? Would that change your math?
Also double stacked rage is not RAGE x2.. I belive its about 33% more.. something about diminishing returns or something.
I never said my build was Bestest as you say, I am saying ss/fire is not as good as you make it out to be.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ryougi
The point you are missing on the recharge, is there is this wonderful thing in math called diminishing returns. "The more you get of something, the less it's worth"
hasten + 3recharge IO's +67 % = 227% recharge in that power. IT drops it from 90 seconds to 27 seconds, a 63 second gain if I you were to go from 227 -> 400, it'd drop from 27 to 18, a.. 9 second gain. Now, assuming you have teh 100% up EVERY TIME the suppression period ends, you are looking at a ~50% total gain, that's just rough math in my head, and someone can correct me. either way, it's still sitting at about 24 seconds, which, otoh, doesn't change my calculations at all. (EF/FS 4 times an LR, BL 3 times an LR) and as noted, you can easily add the same proc to FS and get a much more reliable boost, so.. moot point is moot? Second post proved that with everything capped, SS still does more damage over the same period of time. As for the rage, that's.. hilarious, cute even. Bu is 80% for 10 seconds Rage is 80% for 120 seconds with 10 seconds of no damage. Net gain? Rage is 11 times as effective as BU, double rage? 18 times. IT crashes because it's so effective it makes buildup look like a little girl in comparison, it's called balancing. That said, you forgot procs are completely uneffected by the crash, slot those bad boys up and keep swining to maintain fury -- I do ~200 damage a crash with them. (Also to answer your question, some psuedo math: 50 damage every 2 second unrealistic, but it's just flat math to show something, not a test, rage by itself: 50*1.8*60 - 5400 damage; 50 * ((1.8*40) + (2.6*25)) = 6400. ((Techinically there should be another 1.8*60 because you have 10 seconds of crash at 120, then another 60 seconds of 80% boost) Either way, the same situation with build up. 50*(1.8*20) (Assuming you've twinked out os it's up every 30 seconds, that's four times in a 120 second period, attacks every 2 seconds splits that in half = 1800. Now for some even more mindboggling psuedomath! How's the crash work ryo! Build up, over 130 seconds: (130, so we can work the crash in) 50 damage every 2 second for 90 of it, 90 (50*1.8) for 40 of it. (50*90)+(90*1.8) = 4050 Rage, single and double stacked over 130 seconds are as above. 5400 single stacked 6400 double stacked net loss of 450 damage double stacked, (50*1.8*5 -- 90 damage every 2 seconds for 10 seconds) 250 single stacked. Either way, double stacked wins, and they both completely destroy build up. Of course this is completely unrealistic, I don't think there is any build in the game with a full attack chain that has no gaps and no attacks under 2 seconds animating; and build up/rage have animation times which skewer the numbers But as I said, flat math to illustrate a point -- once again, you can throw your hands up and go MY BUILD IS THE BESTEST all you want, numbers can't lie. |
Ya I admit I know nothing about earth/cold controllers but at least I can ask when I don't know.
I have one toon that was made 2076 days ago and it happens to be a controller. That was the last time I played a controller toon.
My flagged join date? I don't know why you think that proves when I joined the game? It does prove when I joined the forum and any mod could verify that. You have to login to the forum and I never did that until this year. Why is that so hard for you to understand?
I started out on Triumph when it was a busy server.
I actually went looking.
The first post you ever made about an SS/Fire (on this thread) was so bad that it, along with its immediate replies, got Modded out of existence.
( And concerning your flagged join date? 22/06/2010: "Thanks guys.. I have no idea how to build chars at all." ...