Ryougi

that's fine, I don't need big shiny numbers, as long as I feel like i'm doing "something", that was always my problem with fire blast, aoe is nice, but give me one target and i'm like a kitten scratching it.. an annoyance, not a threat.

I've honestly never grouped with a huntsman, but from reading that i'm getting the feeling that you can tell the difference between a group with one and without one, which is just what I want :3

>Trust my math so much I forget something

.. what did I forget? That I can log into the game and check the numbers like I just did, or how they remained the exact same? Oh wait, no, you are probably going to tell me the devs put the wrong numbers on the powers too! gasp, whatever shall I do.

Yea, this is me walking away from this conversation because you make zero sense buddy.

Uh, right. You sound like the guy I was in a group with the other night who said defense was worthless (was a WP tank who wouldn't pick up heightened senses because defense was worthless and it was a waste of power), and his softcapped ninjitsu stalker gets hit all the time, so numbers mean nothing! Yea, we pointed and laughed at him too.

As I said, I don't have a SS/Fire brute, as such, I don't have a build, but if you would read instead of ignoring half the post, the build that hits 27 second on LS, recharges FS in 6 seconds. Still four times Pretty much no matter how you work the math, there you will be using FS four times per LR, with a 2-3 second gap (so.. nine times per two LR's) between the fourth and LR.

So yes, dismiss the numbers all you want, just because you don't believe them doesn't make them any less real. AS I said, the numbers don't lie, no matter what you think of them.

I'm not embellishing the truth, I'm giving hard numbers, which are. .completely refuting everything you say, you are just flailing and going LALALALLA I DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT

I don't even HAVE an SS/fire, though doing this math is seriously making me want to make one.

All of these numbers are pulled straight from mids. all of the math is just looking up caps on paragon wiki and doing grade school algebra and arithmetic.

and go ahead, try something different, we never said it was the ONLY build, if you'll notice the thread title.

Very Best Farmer

We're answering the guys question, mathmatically, SS/Fire has a much higher sustained dps than Elec/fire, therefore is the better farmer.

Elec fire works for you, pishposh, happy for you, but it's not the best, therefore it's not answering his question

The point you are missing on the recharge, is there is this wonderful thing in math called diminishing returns. "The more you get of something, the less it's worth"

hasten + 3recharge IO's +67 % = 227% recharge in that power.

IT drops it from 90 seconds to 27 seconds, a 63 second gain

if I you were to go from 227 -> 400, it'd drop from 27 to 18, a.. 9 second gain.

Now, assuming you have teh 100% up EVERY TIME the suppression period ends, you are looking at a ~50% total gain, that's just rough math in my head, and someone can correct me. either way, it's still sitting at about 24 seconds, which, otoh, doesn't change my calculations at all. (EF/FS 4 times an LR, BL 3 times an LR)

and as noted, you can easily add the same proc to FS and get a much more reliable boost, so.. moot point is moot? Second post proved that with everything capped, SS still does more damage over the same period of time.


As for the rage, that's.. hilarious, cute even.

Bu is 80% for 10 seconds

Rage is 80% for 120 seconds with 10 seconds of no damage. Net gain? Rage is 11 times as effective as BU, double rage? 18 times. IT crashes because it's so effective it makes buildup look like a little girl in comparison, it's called balancing.

That said, you forgot procs are completely uneffected by the crash, slot those bad boys up and keep swining to maintain fury -- I do ~200 damage a crash with them.

(Also to answer your question, some psuedo math: 50 damage every 2 second unrealistic, but it's just flat math to show something, not a test, rage by itself: 50*1.8*60 - 5400 damage; 50 * ((1.8*40) + (2.6*25)) = 6400. ((Techinically there should be another 1.8*60 because you have 10 seconds of crash at 120, then another 60 seconds of 80% boost)

Either way, the same situation with build up.

50*(1.8*20) (Assuming you've twinked out os it's up every 30 seconds, that's four times in a 120 second period, attacks every 2 seconds splits that in half = 1800.

Now for some even more mindboggling psuedomath! How's the crash work ryo!

Build up, over 130 seconds: (130, so we can work the crash in)

50 damage every 2 second for 90 of it, 90 (50*1.8) for 40 of it.

(50*90)+(90*1.8) = 4050

Rage, single and double stacked over 130 seconds are as above.

5400 single stacked
6400 double stacked

net loss of 450 damage double stacked, (50*1.8*5 -- 90 damage every 2 seconds for 10 seconds) 250 single stacked. Either way, double stacked wins, and they both completely destroy build up.

Of course this is completely unrealistic, I don't think there is any build in the game with a full attack chain that has no gaps and no attacks under 2 seconds animating; and build up/rage have animation times which skewer the numbers

But as I said, flat math to illustrate a point -- once again, you can throw your hands up and go MY BUILD IS THE BESTEST all you want, numbers can't lie.

Np, just surprised no one else did it first, took me all of 5 minutes with mids to pull out those numbers. Opinions have bias, numbers do not.

Honest to god please tell me this isn't your best troll attempt

'doing it wrong' is a stretch.

3 50 recharge IO's + hasten + 5 LOTG's = 29.76 seconds, and you've pretty much hit the hell of diminishing returns by that point, adding five purple sets drops it to 26.76.

in other words, 25-30 seconds is the BEST you are going to get.

Not going to go crazy with the math, so just doing what I can in mids atm: 67.5% global recharge -- reasonable amount, assuming you want to softcap and aren't going for hundreds of recharge bonuses

27.07s recharge (hasten + 94.93 (IO's, assuming you've frankenslotted for max recharge) + 67.5%) on LR

Same amonut of recharge?

9.773s recharge on ball lightning

6.108s recharge on electrifying fences

6.016s on footstomp.

ball lightning, twice a FE

EF and FS three times a FE.

You can use the entire chain 3 times per LR (FS and EF four times)

Rage is triple stacked, FS does 215.03 damage -before- fury.

LR, according to mids (and granted, probably wrong) does 265.7 (372.47 with build up) -- so, furyless, SS is about 2/3rds of your LR, with fury this'll change because of LR's higher base damage, but the point stands, that's formidable..

Oh and TS is not useless, it's just uselessi n comparison to FS

Same setup as before: 7.01s recharge, 111.74 AoE damage (only the energy portion is AoE), under half the area and twice the cast time of FS.

This. Power Siphon works better for scrappers because they have higher base damage, lower caps -- 120% is nothing to scoff at, but you are sitting at that much with fury.

Buffs like power siphon and AAO are better for scrappers because damage buffs work offo f base damage -- an example

According to mids, Smashing Blow, generic high damage "Pow"

for scrappers: 101.85 base damage at 50, 120% from siphon power = 224.07 damage, before enhancements, (+95% (three damage SO's) = 320.07 damage with saturated with SP)

For brutes (Who, by design, have lower base damage that tankers, it offsets their massive damage cap and fury): 61.73 base damage at 50 -- 135.8 damage with PS fully saturated (
194.44 with 3 damage enh and fully saturated power siphon -- less than a scrapper with nothing but power siphon

Of course, fury adds another 300% to that, which puts it about even, but.. the point is, brutes get significantly less bang per buck for damage bonuses than scrappers, and for a set whose defining power IS their damage booster (and the instantanious recharge of it via crits on it's t9) -- It beings to suffer for brutes in comparison to scrappers.


Claws however focuses on light, quick attacks, which.. in turn, build fury fast -- it's perfect for brutes

This is the part the thread is missing, assuming high recharge, LR is up every 30 seconds.
Now, since LR is the ONLY bit elec/ has to flaunt, since as mentioned all of it's other AoE's are fairly garbage

So the question is "Is SS/Fire/MU's sustained dps great enough to kill an entire mob in less than 30 seconds"

The answer? in a word? yes. I have an SS/WP/Mu (and before someone throws up a thread, yes, I did ask for help because her build is balls -- that actually supports the argument here) Half fury, double rage, footstomp takes 60% of a minions health (~300 damage); Electric fences and ball lightning do the rest.

With just hasten + multi-strike (Yes, I mentioned her build was balls, right?) It's up every 9 seconds. FE lasts twenty seconds, that's two full FS->EF->BL chains, and noted with that much omph: behind it, FS will come close to one-shotting minions. Burn and BA are just icing on the cake

Now here's the fun part: Single target. Elec/ is known for it's terrible ST, s'why stalkers comment on how AS actually :improves: ST dps outside of hide.

SS is known for it's incredibly STRONG ST, KO blow will do ~700 damage in the same scenario earlier (double rage, 50% fury) that's half a bosses health, punch + haymaker do roughly the same. So while you are waitingo n yuor AoE to cooldown, you've just killed a boss. maybe two, again, not sure how big FE's bonus is.

So, magic logic, 20 seconds to burn down LT's/minions with your aoE combo, roughly that long for two bosses.

As opposed to 30 seconds between LR's, and dealing with Elec/'s terrible ST in the meantime (and thunderstrike, but lol thunderstrike)



TLDR; It's not about how big the shiny numbers you throw up are, it's about how consistantly you can throw them up. SS kills a mob every 20 seconds with it's 'mediocre' AoE, Elec, dependant on LR, takes 30 seconds minimum -- if only due to it's cooldown.

SS kills 3 mobs in the time it takes Elec to kill 2 -- S'like I used to tell groups in the old days, Invincible is better than Invulnerable, because while the mobs may be higher level, there are more of them on invincible, more bodies outweighs the exp gain from more exp per body.

Yea,realized that after I typed it, either way.

Well, it was more on the lines that it does more than spine burst and thunderstrike (According to mids it's 76.86 base, spine burst is ~74, thunder strike only does energy damage with it's shockwave, so 68.86 damge of it is AoE) -- that pluss the 100% crit leaves it with the strongest :alpha: capability of the stalker AoE's -- barring lightning rod of course, which.. is it's own beast.

Unless of course i'm totally missing something here.

The 33% was from the cor thread (Didn't get why they had 75% blaster damage (is 66% now, I know) and roughly 75% defender support, but.. that was fine, the scourge bonus was the reason given) -- that said, elec is.. working for the moment -- only 11, and loving it, still feels kind of.. 'eh, like i'll only have 5ish attacks which is.. tiny for a chain, and that bothers me -- but i'm sure the first time I crit with thunder strike I will stop caring.

AS is love, halving a +3 bosses hp with one shot unslotted just kind of made me stop caring about the classes problems, for serious.

and uh, KM is an AoE set -- from what I understand -- because burst, it's PBAOE, has a 100% chance to crit out of hide, which is.. well.. boom.

Yea, I noticed as I was typing the hole there -- scrappers have 5% to crit LT's, 10% to crit bosses, stalkers are a universal 10% that is buffed by the party -- figure it makes up for the ~15 base damage (.. according to mids, anyhow) difference -- sort like how corruptors have defender numbers, but scourge works out to be a ~30% bonus to overall dps

Elec/ is a bit of a problem -- s'one of the three (Well, five, but.. meh) sets I can't work with, /dark (miasma), fiery aura, and elec.. anything (Highest is a 40 elec dom, closest is a 18 elec brute) -- for some reason I have trouble getting them past 30 but.. 'eh, stalker is a whole new game for me, maybe it'll work.

As for secondary, yea, I have three /SR scrappers, /nin looks perfect, just thought i'd ask on /EA because conceptually, I LOVE /ea, but.. it's always left a lot to be desired mechanically =/

Anyhow! Seems my fears were just silly scrapper bias, thanks for the replys.

Nah, post it, more builds, more reference we have, more likely we are to get a number cruncher to come in and optimize XD

That said, affording purples is.. well.. mostly done by returning the favor. Reward (not alignment merits, save those for 7.5% lotg's) merits -- drop 20 on the reward roll every time you can, chances are you'll get something rare (Last time I did one, I got a 7.5% LoTG.) -- if you can't use it, sell it. Most stuff from the reward roll goes for 10-20 mil.

Outside of that, s'just selling stuff you can't use -- running AE missions is amazing for this, you get enough tickets for ~two silver reward rolls every time you do a mission, silver reward rolls give good rewards -- usually procs or semi-rare recipes, including the defense LoTG recipe, which on my server sells for 40-50 mil by itself.

But.. yea, key is just taking recipes you can't use (I don't get why the LOTG defense recipe sells for that much, LOTG set bonuses were always kind of meh to me, and it's not THAT big of a bonus (~39% to defensive powers at 50, I think?) -- but hey, not my money), and dropping them on WW, if it sells for a bit, sell it, otherwise, vendor it.

Another key -- if you don't mind being a little risky, is using Perceived Price to make money.

Selling a recipe for 60 mil costs you ~6 mil in costs just to post it, in addition to the chunk taken when you sell it.

However, if you put something up for 1 inf, and someone bids 50 mil on it because the last 5 sales were all 50-80 mil.. you still get 50 mil (minus the surcharge they take from all purchases) and you make a net ~5 mil from avoiding consignment costs.

If the past prices on something are high, people are more likely to make high initial bids -- therefore you stand to make a profit by putting it up for a low price to avoid consignment costs -- as they'll still likely bid high and pay high for it.

OF course at the same time you risk losing money (someone drops 100 inf just to see and grabs your recipe), but.. it's made me 181 mil in about 4 days.. so.. *shrug*

I agree on quicksand, but 15% global acc allows me to skimp on acc for the sake of set bonuses, on top of the 10% recharge, allows for much easier permadom, but, depending on how I can bend the recharge bonuses, I might drop it and reallocate the slots, three freespecs and whatnot

That said, the rest of the advice is sound, I was thinking more setmuling by overslotting, but.. most of that was just my brain overcompensating.

As for stone cages/quicksand, that's just a leftover controller logic, I'm used to having the aoe immob for containment purposes (well that and rain of fire). but -95% slow fixes that.