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o.O Animation time issues with KM on Scrappers?|
Originally Posted by Ryougi
First, I should probably start off by appologizing, some of these questions are going to seem a bit insulting -- My predispositions towards stalkers aren't exactly 'good', but -- i'm asking these questions to clear the air so!
I've just about burned myself out on CoH, I've literally played every build I can think of that I want to -- well save for an SD scrapper, but I have two BS 50's and can't stand shields with elemental sets, so.. -- That leaves me with unexplored territory -- the two AT's i've not played, corrs and stalkers -- I made a similar thread on the corr forums for similar reasons, got one to 33 and realized I hate playing ranged characters, so.. stalkers turn! So, some questions to aleviate my fears and get me in the proper mindset 1.) PvE, in my heads stalkers have always been a sort of. .PVP-only AT, just kind of seemed that everything a stalker did in PvE, a scrapper could do better -- outside of ASing, and well, headsplitter crit kills a boss just as well; Reading up it seems there was a big buff in I12, and that is no longer the case, they're now like scrappers with slightly less base damage, but a higher chance to crit (10% of everything PLUS bonuses from group members? delicious) -- Seeing as I don't PvP.. any good PvE stories? 2.) Groups! I don't solo much, if at all, like.. if i'm soloing, it's farming (Which I understand is possible, yay), or just grinding a mish or two while the LFG channel is dead -- As noted earlier, just has always seemed to me like scrappers just.. :do: better in groups -- so, uh, would someone explain to me the joys a stalker brings to a group? 3.)Finally, build advice! or rather powerset advice! Primary is up in the air -- from what I understand KM is actually best on stalkers (.. brutes suffer from PS being a minor version of fury, scrappers have animation time issues.. stalkers seem to jsut all around benefit) -- so was thinking of trying that, new and all -- but I am open to suggestions -- I like spreading AoE around, not really a stalkers role but.. figure'd I'd ask anyhow. Secondary! /Nin or /EA -- /Nin is my first reflex, just looking at it.. it's a well put together set -- /EA, the forums seem to love, which surprises me, according to mids, it's ~3% more def per shield the brute version (which almost all brutes despise), and they make that up with the 4% on energy cloak -- am I just missing something, or are stalkers just more laid back than brutes towards it? aand those three would be it, again, sorry if it seems a bit insulting, s'why i'm asking, stalkers aren't in a very good place in my head, kind of want to shake that mentality. Figured it woudl be best start in the stalker hive, heh. |
KM is considered great on Scrappers and Stalkers.
Electric Melee for Stalkers has Lightning Rod not dropping hide, so maybe an Elec/Nin would be what you're looking for, as only Stalkers have access to Ninjitsu.
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PVE: Stalkers can do well in PvE if theyre built well, and if you can shake the Hit-And-Run mentality while on teams. Solo your pace is whatever you like, but
Mostly I think it depends on your build. Im really not a fan of ST heavy sets, especially on stalkers, but Electric Melee and Dual Blades are both pretty good for area damage. Stalker Dual Blades makes good use of the stuff you want to use whenever its up (BU+AS+Placate), also.
Groups: As I said above, as long as youre able to actually stand and fight, it can be decent. My Elec Melee/Ninjitsu stalker can solo +3/x8 even against annoying stuff like CoT and Malta, so on a team its just a gravy train of butt whuppin.
Primary: As mentioned, Elec or Dual Blades are pretty good. Ninja Blade is also pretty crazy, Im told. I dunno about KM, havent played it yet.
Secondary: I like /Nin most. Pretty easy to cap defenses, theyre Positional instead of Typed (do not like typed so much), a good self heal (I also took aid self on mine so Ive got a heal for every occasion if I need it), etc. I keep thinking I need to make another /EA to see why some folks like it, but.. ugh.
Running a KM/Nin right now and I do love KM but find it missing a lot. More so than I had with DB back when it first came out. 
That's my only gripe about it, makes me wish that you didn't lose energy upon each successful hit because you end up wasting so much just from missing; forcing you to drop all your toggles.
As for PVE availability. There's only a few instances I've found where a stalker's specific build was entirely dependent on what you're fighting (IE: Apex TF vs Battle Maiden) such as the ITF where foes gain a huge To-Hit bonus and damage boost. Otherwise the class is 98% dependent on the play style. Time the placates, heals, Panic-Power (Tier 9) and you're going to do fine as long as you map out the conflict before rushing right in.
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Yup, I originally thought it was kind of corny... a little.... fruity. But playing around with it, it's actually pretty good. Those disorients can save your rear quite a bit not to mention having Burst which crits under hide every time. Burst is so fun, doing Vincent Ross's arch when you got the invincibility Perk and slaughtering 200 chain, I spammed the crap out of Burst and it was taking them out left and right. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
KM is considered great on Scrappers and Stalkers.
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You also get Focused Burst, though haven't been able to get it on my stalker yet so I don't know if it crits all the time under hide influence as well. But it's a ranged attack. Kind of short ranged, like Power Burst but High damage and fairly effective.
Last but not least, the Assassin Strike looks awesome. It's a Hadouken at melee.
Well, I have to say that a Stalker is primarily a solo-oriented AT. That's really been its weakness, while a Stalker can be very powerful stalking through a mission alone, in a team it is assumed that "there's nothing a Stalker can do that a Scrapper can't do better". Even with the revamp that hasn't changed -- except for the "better" part. On a team a Stalker now feels much like a Scrapper with a few extra party favors.
However, those party favors are the difference. First of all, you have the Demoralize from Assassin Strike, which causes everyone around a Boss or AV hit by an AS cowering in terror and with a debuff -tohit. Keep this up on an AV during a fight and you can speed up the elimination of his minions, and then him. Second, AS, when following a Placate, is still one of the highest DPA attacks you can make, so as long as you don't get hit by an AoE while casting it, there's no need to hold it back. A Headsplitter will kill the AV just as fast, sure, but with a slightly higher chance for him to hit you.
Plus, you've got that stealth, and the first free strike on the spawn with either an AS or a Crit. That can speed things up for the team, leaving them with one less foe to worry about. On a large enough team, the Stalker can actually start doing MORE sustained damage than the Scrapper, although that's unlikely, as it takes like 7 other allies in melee. Still, even if you don't want to do anything but scrap, and pick an AoE combo like the Elec/Nin suggestion, your lower sustained damage probably wouldn't even be noticable on an average team. You'll be killing right along with everyone else, and your allies will see the occasional Fears from your AS.
One nice thing to note is that although you have a lower base damage than a Scrapper, since everything you do is based on a Critical, it all scales nicely when you are buffed by a team. So you won't be falling behind a Scrapper on a team with a Kin or Rad. However, Scrappers that can buff themselves to a high level on big spawns, like Dark or Kin Melee, will have the advantage there. Kin Melee is good, but there's some argument as to whether it's better on Scrappers.
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Yea, I noticed as I was typing the hole there -- scrappers have 5% to crit LT's, 10% to crit bosses, stalkers are a universal 10% that is buffed by the party -- figure it makes up for the ~15 base damage (.. according to mids, anyhow) difference -- sort like how corruptors have defender numbers, but scourge works out to be a ~30% bonus to overall dps|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Well, I have to say that a Stalker is primarily a solo-oriented AT. That's really been its weakness, while a Stalker can be very powerful stalking through a mission alone, in a team it is assumed that "there's nothing a Stalker can do that a Scrapper can't do better". Even with the revamp that hasn't changed -- except for the "better" part. On a team a Stalker now feels much like a Scrapper with a few extra party favors.
However, those party favors are the difference. First of all, you have the Demoralize from Assassin Strike, which causes everyone around a Boss or AV hit by an AS cowering in terror and with a debuff -tohit. Keep this up on an AV during a fight and you can speed up the elimination of his minions, and then him. Second, AS, when following a Placate, is still one of the highest DPA attacks you can make, so as long as you don't get hit by an AoE while casting it, there's no need to hold it back. A Headsplitter will kill the AV just as fast, sure, but with a slightly higher chance for him to hit you. Plus, you've got that stealth, and the first free strike on the spawn with either an AS or a Crit. That can speed things up for the team, leaving them with one less foe to worry about. On a large enough team, the Stalker can actually start doing MORE sustained damage than the Scrapper, although that's unlikely, as it takes like 7 other allies in melee. Still, even if you don't want to do anything but scrap, and pick an AoE combo like the Elec/Nin suggestion, your lower sustained damage probably wouldn't even be noticable on an average team. You'll be killing right along with everyone else, and your allies will see the occasional Fears from your AS. One nice thing to note is that although you have a lower base damage than a Scrapper, since everything you do is based on a Critical, it all scales nicely when you are buffed by a team. So you won't be falling behind a Scrapper on a team with a Kin or Rad. However, Scrappers that can buff themselves to a high level on big spawns, like Dark or Kin Melee, will have the advantage there. Kin Melee is good, but there's some argument as to whether it's better on Scrappers. |
Elec/ is a bit of a problem -- s'one of the three (Well, five, but.. meh) sets I can't work with, /dark (miasma), fiery aura, and elec.. anything (Highest is a 40 elec dom, closest is a 18 elec brute) -- for some reason I have trouble getting them past 30 but.. 'eh, stalker is a whole new game for me, maybe it'll work.
As for secondary, yea, I have three /SR scrappers, /nin looks perfect, just thought i'd ask on /EA because conceptually, I LOVE /ea, but.. it's always left a lot to be desired mechanically =/
Anyhow! Seems my fears were just silly scrapper bias, thanks for the replys.
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Actually, Scourge works out to about a +22% bonus against Bosses and better, and only about 7% versus minions. However, Corruptors DO have about 15% more base damage than Defenders. |
Originally Posted by Ryougi
Yea, I noticed as I was typing the hole there -- scrappers have 5% to crit LT's, 10% to crit bosses, stalkers are a universal 10% that is buffed by the party -- figure it makes up for the ~15 base damage (.. according to mids, anyhow) difference -- sort like how corruptors have defender numbers, but scourge works out to be a ~30% bonus to overall dps
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Where Corruptors and Defenders even out is in damage buffs. Corruptors have greater damage, Defenders have greater buffs to their damage. So as a Defender stacks more -Res or +Dmg, it and the Corruptor come closer in line. (It's about 100% -Res, or 200% +Dmg, so -Res is much easier, especially with Sonic as the Blast set)
Although, amusingly enough, when you factor in the solo bonus for the new Vigilance, Corruptors and Defenders break even immediately, when you compare 3 slotted damage. So then only Scourge is the difference.
Scrappers have 12.5% more damage, but basically the break even point is 3 teammates in a 20 foot range for minions, and 5 in range for Lts and better. And you're still dealing with greater burst damage and the ability to use Placate. But then, of course, as noticed, you're sacrificing all of your AoE capability unless you are Electric, Dual Blades, Spines, or Claws. (Maybe Kin Melee too?) The basic idea, I think, is that Assassin Strike is supposed to concentrate all of that AoE damage on your single target. Which is why it tends to replace that attack.
If you don't care about AoE damage, you could go with MA or Ninja Blade, but given your emphasis on farming and grouping that may be an issue for you. I don't know whether Spines or Claws would be preferred, but I would guess it would be one of them if you can't stand Electric. OTOH, the problems you have with the set may be solved by the somewhat different style.
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The 33% was from the cor thread (Didn't get why they had 75% blaster damage (is 66% now, I know) and roughly 75% defender support, but.. that was fine, the scourge bonus was the reason given) -- that said, elec is.. working for the moment -- only 11, and loving it, still feels kind of.. 'eh, like i'll only have 5ish attacks which is.. tiny for a chain, and that bothers me -- but i'm sure the first time I crit with thunder strike I will stop caring.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Actually, Scourge works out to about a +22% bonus against Bosses and better, and only about 7% versus minions. However, Corruptors DO have about 15% more base damage than Defenders.
Where Corruptors and Defenders even out is in damage buffs. Corruptors have greater damage, Defenders have greater buffs to their damage. So as a Defender stacks more -Res or +Dmg, it and the Corruptor come closer in line. (It's about 100% -Res, or 200% +Dmg, so -Res is much easier, especially with Sonic as the Blast set) Although, amusingly enough, when you factor in the solo bonus for the new Vigilance, Corruptors and Defenders break even immediately, when you compare 3 slotted damage. So then only Scourge is the difference. Scrappers have 12.5% more damage, but basically the break even point is 3 teammates in a 20 foot range for minions, and 5 in range for Lts and better. And you're still dealing with greater burst damage and the ability to use Placate. But then, of course, as noticed, you're sacrificing all of your AoE capability unless you are Electric, Dual Blades, Spines, or Claws. (Maybe Kin Melee too?) The basic idea, I think, is that Assassin Strike is supposed to concentrate all of that AoE damage on your single target. Which is why it tends to replace that attack. If you don't care about AoE damage, you could go with MA or Ninja Blade, but given your emphasis on farming and grouping that may be an issue for you. I don't know whether Spines or Claws would be preferred, but I would guess it would be one of them if you can't stand Electric. OTOH, the problems you have with the set may be solved by the somewhat different style. |
AS is love, halving a +3 bosses hp with one shot unslotted just kind of made me stop caring about the classes problems, for serious.
and uh, KM is an AoE set -- from what I understand -- because burst, it's PBAOE, has a 100% chance to crit out of hide, which is.. well.. boom.
and on that note, i'm heavily considering rerolling KM, I just realized the source of the ennui, and.. my real problem with electric as a set, it just seems so.. ethereal. it's got three 'real' attacks, double so animation wise -- jacob's ladder is a nice attack, but the animation, the cone.. it just feels like a parlor trick instead of something I can rely on, chain induction (while I KNOW is very powerful) feels the same... just feels like there is very little to 'look forward' to in the set -- and out of those, very few are attacks you can 'feel' (SS? The POW and screen shake of haymaker, just.. you can :Feel: connect, Elec.. not so much)
KM seems to have a much more "solid" set up, and from what i've seen of the animations, has the 'feel' I'm looking for.. just hoping Burst is enough AoE to keep me from getting bored.
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Again, I never felt this way and I never felt like other teammates felt this way. The difference is the systematic elimination a stalker has and the ability to be probably the best CC (Crowd Control) individual in the game out of the melee archtypes due to Hide + AS + Placate + Hide. But that's just because my playstyle is a little more along the lines of letting the scrappers and tanks due most of the distraction and tank-taunting while I'm behind the back lines moving from target to target.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Well, I have to say that a Stalker is primarily a solo-oriented AT. That's really been its weakness, while a Stalker can be very powerful stalking through a mission alone, in a team it is assumed that "there's nothing a Stalker can do that a Scrapper can't do better". Even with the revamp that hasn't changed -- except for the "better" part. On a team a Stalker now feels much like a Scrapper with a few extra party favors.
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Originally Posted by Ryougi
KM seems to have a much more "solid" set up, and from what i've seen of the animations, has the 'feel' I'm looking for.. just hoping Burst is enough AoE to keep me from getting bored.
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The best comparison of Burst is Dragon's Tail. It's a knock down but it also allows you to assassin-crit every time it lands when hidden as opposed to random change. It's a nice PBAoE CC that can distract surrounding targets.
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Well, it was more on the lines that it does more than spine burst and thunderstrike (According to mids it's 76.86 base, spine burst is ~74, thunder strike only does energy damage with it's shockwave, so 68.86 damge of it is AoE) -- that pluss the 100% crit leaves it with the strongest :alpha: capability of the stalker AoE's -- barring lightning rod of course, which.. is it's own beast.|
Originally Posted by Stryph
The best comparison of Burst is Dragon's Tail. It's a knock down but it also allows you to assassin-crit every time it lands when hidden as opposed to random change. It's a nice PBAoE CC that can distract surrounding targets.
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Unless of course i'm totally missing something here.
Sounds about right. I'm still a newb with MIDs stuff and I haven't even mastered IO specing. I just feel Burst so far is my favorite but that's because I never played an E/x or Claws Stalker past level ten. xD
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Bit of a nitpick but...a scrapper's crit chance is 5% for minions and underlings and 10% for anything above minion class (LT, Boss, EB, etc.)|
Originally Posted by Ryougi
Yea, I noticed as I was typing the hole there -- scrappers have 5% to crit LT's, 10% to crit bosses
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Certain powers, usually a tier 9, have a slightly higher chance to crit or give a bonus to crit chance for a short time.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
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Something funny. |
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Yea,realized that after I typed it, either way.
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Originally Posted by RaikenX
Bit of a nitpick but...a scrapper's crit chance is 5% for minions and underlings and 10% for anything above minion class (LT, Boss, EB, etc.)
Certain powers, usually a tier 9, have a slightly higher chance to crit or give a bonus to crit chance for a short time. |
I have found one minor issue with Burst though in that it's picky with the terrain you're on.
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That's the perception, anyway. I have personally found that Stalkers solo very well. I don't know if I necessarily agree that they have problems in teams, but there are some individuals in this forum (Staker supporters, not trolls) that will protest very greatly about how Stalkers are inferior in all things. |
Originally Posted by Stryph
Again, I never felt this way [that Stalkers are solo oriented and have trouble getting teams] and I never felt like other teammates felt this way.
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True, or not true, I can't really say. Just not my experience. I'm not going to discount the possibilty that a newcomer to the AT may not like it, though.
First, I should probably start off by appologizing, some of these questions are going to seem a bit insulting -- My predispositions towards stalkers aren't exactly 'good', but -- i'm asking these questions to clear the air so!
I've just about burned myself out on CoH, I've literally played every build I can think of that I want to -- well save for an SD scrapper, but I have two BS 50's and can't stand shields with elemental sets, so.. -- That leaves me with unexplored territory -- the two AT's i've not played, corrs and stalkers -- I made a similar thread on the corr forums for similar reasons, got one to 33 and realized I hate playing ranged characters, so.. stalkers turn!
So, some questions to aleviate my fears and get me in the proper mindset
1.) PvE, in my heads stalkers have always been a sort of. .PVP-only AT, just kind of seemed that everything a stalker did in PvE, a scrapper could do better -- outside of ASing, and well, headsplitter crit kills a boss just as well; Reading up it seems there was a big buff in I12, and that is no longer the case, they're now like scrappers with slightly less base damage, but a higher chance to crit (10% of everything PLUS bonuses from group members? delicious) -- Seeing as I don't PvP.. any good PvE stories?
2.) Groups! I don't solo much, if at all, like.. if i'm soloing, it's farming (Which I understand is possible, yay), or just grinding a mish or two while the LFG channel is dead -- As noted earlier, just has always seemed to me like scrappers just.. :do: better in groups -- so, uh, would someone explain to me the joys a stalker brings to a group?
3.)Finally, build advice! or rather powerset advice! Primary is up in the air -- from what I understand KM is actually best on stalkers (.. brutes suffer from PS being a minor version of fury, scrappers have animation time issues.. stalkers seem to jsut all around benefit) -- so was thinking of trying that, new and all -- but I am open to suggestions -- I like spreading AoE around, not really a stalkers role but.. figure'd I'd ask anyhow.
Secondary! /Nin or /EA -- /Nin is my first reflex, just looking at it.. it's a well put together set -- /EA, the forums seem to love, which surprises me, according to mids, it's ~3% more def per shield the brute version (which almost all brutes despise), and they make that up with the 4% on energy cloak -- am I just missing something, or are stalkers just more laid back than brutes towards it?
aand those three would be it, again, sorry if it seems a bit insulting, s'why i'm asking, stalkers aren't in a very good place in my head, kind of want to shake that mentality. Figured it woudl be best start in the stalker hive, heh.