BellyButtonJelly

Originally Posted by Wulfman

First, I'll ignore the snide comment about common sense, as I'm sure you weren't directing it specifically at me or suggesting that I don't have any.

Second, while your assumption of the reasoning may be the most logical, that does not make it so. After all, there was a whole lot of common sense that said the world was flat at one time. But again, the issue is that they don't have the guts to step out and say so, one way or the other. Instead, they depend on the "common sense police" to answer for them.

Lastly, taking AE out altogether was one of my options as well. However, if they were to do so simply because a small percentage of people aren't using the system the way they intended, then they might as well discontinue the game altogether because there have always been and will always be people who don't use the game mechanics as intended.

And quite frankly, saying the devs were using common sense when they designed AE AND that they didn't anticipate some small portion of the playerbase to misuse it is an oxymoron of epic proportions...with the emphasis on the moron part. ANYONE with a lick of common sense knew it was going to happen, and I'm sure you'd give the devs at least that much credit!

Originally Posted by Nihilii

So you actually meant you were all talk and no action right from the start? My bad then.

Originally Posted by Jets

Why dont you post your build, I would be interested in seeing it since its so awesome.

Originally Posted by Nihilii

I knew BBJ would back down, but I got to say I didn't expect him to keep running his mouth after publically admitting he can't do it. Heh.



I use FRAPS (paid version; free stops after 30s), it works well. Another option, if it works for you, is to use the WeGame client. It records, encodes and uploads to WeGame.com.

Originally Posted by ultrawatt

Trying to get a video to upload and i cant seem to get Wegame to work. Do i have to be running from WeGame where it has all your games and stuff, because i cant get that to work.

Anyway, i got a video using camstudio (**** them) but it has REALLY REALLY REALLY crappy quality and for some god awful reason the colors got ****** up. I guess i suck at this kind of stuff >.<

Originally Posted by Jets

Clearly you fail to understand what it means to be a farmer, but your random comments have been pretty funny. Let me highlight something for you...



Add or take away all you want or comeback with another what-if, it doesn’t change anything. We used to farm Dreck, Wolves, Family, heck we even farmed the Winter Lord. Farmers built ATs for those specific farms and we continue to do so, and the King right now is the SS/FA Brute. Take it or leave it, until you bring facts or evidence that some other AT or build is better no one is going to take you seriously.

Originally Posted by Jets

The OP asked what is the "Very Best Farmer?”. I think you lost track of that while trying to defend your Brute and I don’t recall seeing anyone write that Elec/FA was an awful farmer, it’s just not the best. The whole point of making a farming toon is to effectively complete one task in the shortest amount of time possible for the maximum rewards. For Brutes, on a fire farm, the #1 Brute is SS/FA.

Originally Posted by Fiery-Enforcer

The uncommon alpha boost resists the effects of ED by 1/3, like it says in the description. I don't see anyone saying that it's useless and not doing anything, Aquila said that most of it is subject to ED, which 2/3 is.

Originally Posted by Aquila_NA

ALMOST had me going for a page or two. (Could ELM/FA REALLY be that good? *doubts*)
But this just confirmed for me that you really don't know as much about it as you think you do.

Yes, there is suppression when it is attempted before the first application wears off.
Yes, Alpha is basically built INTO the idea of diminishing because it acts upon power slotting, not global bonuses. Power slotting is subject to ED and so is most of Alpha.
Yes, triple-stacked Rage has diminishing returns. Sitting at double is the way to go.
No, Rage stacks add. As in 80% + 80% +80%. Ever use "real numbers" (in game)? Try Powers, Combat Attributes. Very interesting stuff.

Originally Posted by Nihilii

I don't want him to go away. Even eryq2 on the market forums isn't that funny.



Personally, while I use insps liberally, I like building without insps in mind, because if I'm PLing 3-4 people at once, I'm going to get insps a lot slower than if I'm solo.

Either way, he's shooting himself in the foot with that rule, SS benefits less from insps than other builds (as you're running at +~405% damage with double stacked rage rather than +~245% on other powersets).



So what, then you make up an imaginary number that is better than whatever the "someone" posts? Nah, words are too easy to weasel out of.

How about this instead, you post a video (raw and unedited footage from mission start to exit, decent resolution so enemy level is clearly distinguishable, influence at start and exit) and we go from there. You're the only one thinking differently so the burden of proof is on you.

I bet you won't do it, you're just another random running his mouth.

Originally Posted by Commando

Which really does not have much of a strong point since they can take the same inspirations as the next guy and they drop as you kill. When I was timing the fire/fire/fire tanker I did notice he/she took a lot more reds than the others I was timing. Yet, with 4-5 reds, the tanker was still doing less dmg than ss/fire brute with very high fury.

Originally Posted by Pyro_Master_NA

I don't know if you realize this, but you're supposed to be at least 13 to play the game. Come back in about 8 years.

/leavingalonetroll

Originally Posted by Sardan

Sorry, but just typing "LOL" doesn't invalidate the math.

Look, I get that you like your Elec, that's cool. Elec is a very fun powerset. But let it go already; it's been shown again and again on the boards that SS puts out more sustained DPS than Elec with the bonus of better ST damage too.

You should look at the old build guides that ThugsRUs did. He was a very hardcore farmer. He created an extremely expensive Elec/SD brute for farming (and wrote an associated guide), and later stripped it of IOs once he realized that SS/SD was better. He most definitely didn't simply fall in love with a particular powerset. He was all about maximum results.

Anyway, like I said, it's great that you're passionate about the Elec powerset and I'm sure you've built an impressive build. Just because there's another powerset that edges it out doesn't diminish your character in any way.

Originally Posted by Ryougi

>Trust my math so much I forget something

.. what did I forget? That I can log into the game and check the numbers like I just did, or how they remained the exact same? Oh wait, no, you are probably going to tell me the devs put the wrong numbers on the powers too! gasp, whatever shall I do.

Yea, this is me walking away from this conversation because you make zero sense buddy.

Originally Posted by Ryougi

Uh, right. You sound like the guy I was in a group with the other night who said defense was worthless (was a WP tank who wouldn't pick up heightened senses because defense was worthless and it was a waste of power), and his softcapped ninjitsu stalker gets hit all the time, so numbers mean nothing! Yea, we pointed and laughed at him too.

As I said, I don't have a SS/Fire brute, as such, I don't have a build, but if you would read instead of ignoring half the post, the build that hits 27 second on LS, recharges FS in 6 seconds. Still four times Pretty much no matter how you work the math, there you will be using FS four times per LR, with a 2-3 second gap (so.. nine times per two LR's) between the fourth and LR.

So yes, dismiss the numbers all you want, just because you don't believe them doesn't make them any less real. AS I said, the numbers don't lie, no matter what you think of them.

Originally Posted by Ryougi

I'm not embellishing the truth, I'm giving hard numbers, which are. .completely refuting everything you say, you are just flailing and going LALALALLA I DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT

I don't even HAVE an SS/fire, though doing this math is seriously making me want to make one.

All of these numbers are pulled straight from mids. all of the math is just looking up caps on paragon wiki and doing grade school algebra and arithmetic.

and go ahead, try something different, we never said it was the ONLY build, if you'll notice the thread title.

Very Best Farmer

We're answering the guys question, mathmatically, SS/Fire has a much higher sustained dps than Elec/fire, therefore is the better farmer.

Elec fire works for you, pishposh, happy for you, but it's not the best, therefore it's not answering his question

Originally Posted by Ryougi

The point you are missing on the recharge, is there is this wonderful thing in math called diminishing returns. "The more you get of something, the less it's worth"

hasten + 3recharge IO's +67 % = 227% recharge in that power.

IT drops it from 90 seconds to 27 seconds, a 63 second gain

if I you were to go from 227 -> 400, it'd drop from 27 to 18, a.. 9 second gain.

Now, assuming you have teh 100% up EVERY TIME the suppression period ends, you are looking at a ~50% total gain, that's just rough math in my head, and someone can correct me. either way, it's still sitting at about 24 seconds, which, otoh, doesn't change my calculations at all. (EF/FS 4 times an LR, BL 3 times an LR)

and as noted, you can easily add the same proc to FS and get a much more reliable boost, so.. moot point is moot? Second post proved that with everything capped, SS still does more damage over the same period of time.


As for the rage, that's.. hilarious, cute even.

Bu is 80% for 10 seconds

Rage is 80% for 120 seconds with 10 seconds of no damage. Net gain? Rage is 11 times as effective as BU, double rage? 18 times. IT crashes because it's so effective it makes buildup look like a little girl in comparison, it's called balancing.

That said, you forgot procs are completely uneffected by the crash, slot those bad boys up and keep swining to maintain fury -- I do ~200 damage a crash with them.

(Also to answer your question, some psuedo math: 50 damage every 2 second unrealistic, but it's just flat math to show something, not a test, rage by itself: 50*1.8*60 - 5400 damage; 50 * ((1.8*40) + (2.6*25)) = 6400. ((Techinically there should be another 1.8*60 because you have 10 seconds of crash at 120, then another 60 seconds of 80% boost)

Either way, the same situation with build up.

50*(1.8*20) (Assuming you've twinked out os it's up every 30 seconds, that's four times in a 120 second period, attacks every 2 seconds splits that in half = 1800.

Now for some even more mindboggling psuedomath! How's the crash work ryo!

Build up, over 130 seconds: (130, so we can work the crash in)

50 damage every 2 second for 90 of it, 90 (50*1.8) for 40 of it.

(50*90)+(90*1.8) = 4050

Rage, single and double stacked over 130 seconds are as above.

5400 single stacked
6400 double stacked

net loss of 450 damage double stacked, (50*1.8*5 -- 90 damage every 2 seconds for 10 seconds) 250 single stacked. Either way, double stacked wins, and they both completely destroy build up.

Of course this is completely unrealistic, I don't think there is any build in the game with a full attack chain that has no gaps and no attacks under 2 seconds animating; and build up/rage have animation times which skewer the numbers

But as I said, flat math to illustrate a point -- once again, you can throw your hands up and go MY BUILD IS THE BESTEST all you want, numbers can't lie.

Originally Posted by ultrawatt

Im not 100% sure but it may not have a suppression period anymore (or maybe it just different than it was). But the rest of what you said is true, Footstomp is just that good.

Anyway, does anyone know if the proc fires before or after an attack animation? I’m curious and can’t test it out right now *sigh.*

Originally Posted by Silas

And you forget or don't correctly understand how the FFB proc works. It has a suppression period, it's not going to give you +100% recharge all the time.

Besides, the FFB proc would go off far more reliably in Footstomp. Has a bigger AoE so you can hit more targets, faster animating and is generally a better AoE power.

Originally Posted by Ryougi

Honest to god please tell me this isn't your best troll attempt

'doing it wrong' is a stretch.

3 50 recharge IO's + hasten + 5 LOTG's = 29.76 seconds, and you've pretty much hit the hell of diminishing returns by that point, adding five purple sets drops it to 26.76.

in other words, 25-30 seconds is the BEST you are going to get.

Not going to go crazy with the math, so just doing what I can in mids atm: 67.5% global recharge -- reasonable amount, assuming you want to softcap and aren't going for hundreds of recharge bonuses

27.07s recharge (hasten + 94.93 (IO's, assuming you've frankenslotted for max recharge) + 67.5%) on LR

Same amonut of recharge?

9.773s recharge on ball lightning

6.108s recharge on electrifying fences

6.016s on footstomp.

ball lightning, twice a FE

EF and FS three times a FE.

You can use the entire chain 3 times per LR (FS and EF four times)

Rage is triple stacked, FS does 215.03 damage -before- fury.

LR, according to mids (and granted, probably wrong) does 265.7 (372.47 with build up) -- so, furyless, SS is about 2/3rds of your LR, with fury this'll change because of LR's higher base damage, but the point stands, that's formidable..

Oh and TS is not useless, it's just uselessi n comparison to FS

Same setup as before: 7.01s recharge, 111.74 AoE damage (only the energy portion is AoE), under half the area and twice the cast time of FS.

Originally Posted by Ryougi

This is the part the thread is missing, assuming high recharge, LR is up every 30 seconds.
Now, since LR is the ONLY bit elec/ has to flaunt, since as mentioned all of it's other AoE's are fairly garbage

So the question is "Is SS/Fire/MU's sustained dps great enough to kill an entire mob in less than 30 seconds"

The answer? in a word? yes. I have an SS/WP/Mu (and before someone throws up a thread, yes, I did ask for help because her build is balls -- that actually supports the argument here) Half fury, double rage, footstomp takes 60% of a minions health (~300 damage); Electric fences and ball lightning do the rest.

With just hasten + multi-strike (Yes, I mentioned her build was balls, right?) It's up every 9 seconds. FE lasts twenty seconds, that's two full FS->EF->BL chains, and noted with that much omph: behind it, FS will come close to one-shotting minions. Burn and BA are just icing on the cake

Now here's the fun part: Single target. Elec/ is known for it's terrible ST, s'why stalkers comment on how AS actually :improves: ST dps outside of hide.

SS is known for it's incredibly STRONG ST, KO blow will do ~700 damage in the same scenario earlier (double rage, 50% fury) that's half a bosses health, punch + haymaker do roughly the same. So while you are waitingo n yuor AoE to cooldown, you've just killed a boss. maybe two, again, not sure how big FE's bonus is.

So, magic logic, 20 seconds to burn down LT's/minions with your aoE combo, roughly that long for two bosses.

As opposed to 30 seconds between LR's, and dealing with Elec/'s terrible ST in the meantime (and thunderstrike, but lol thunderstrike)



TLDR; It's not about how big the shiny numbers you throw up are, it's about how consistantly you can throw them up. SS kills a mob every 20 seconds with it's 'mediocre' AoE, Elec, dependant on LR, takes 30 seconds minimum -- if only due to it's cooldown.

SS kills 3 mobs in the time it takes Elec to kill 2 -- S'like I used to tell groups in the old days, Invincible is better than Invulnerable, because while the mobs may be higher level, there are more of them on invincible, more bodies outweighs the exp gain from more exp per body.

Originally Posted by LygerZero

I suck. Seriously. I'm sorry. I'll try better. Don't listen to me or look at my builds. I'm embarrassed


*Joins Farmaholics anonymous*

Originally Posted by MaelwysAlts

I actually went looking.

The first post you ever made about an SS/Fire (on this thread) was so bad that it, along with its immediate replies, got Modded out of existence.

( And concerning your flagged join date? 22/06/2010: "Thanks guys.. I have no idea how to build chars at all." ... )

Originally Posted by Pyro_Master_NA

No, I'm someone who can't stand when people give wrong information on forums meant to help people out. I have personally never talked to Lyger before, but his points seemed right, and made sense, yours did not and were quite rude.

And someone who knows nothing of farming....don't use rage on ss/ ? Really? I'm starting to see why you might not like SS. It's probably because




But troll on against what is commonly thought of as one of the best farming builds around, I'm sure it will help you out in the long run.


And by the way, very well thought out response.

Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus

You


Are


Doing


It


Wrong.