Trapdoor is getting harder.
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-12-11 24:11 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Holding Trapdoor prevents him from spawning Bifurcations. Dragging him down the hall or into the lava or whatever takes him away from where his Bifurcations spawn.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Same question to you. Should they then make him immune to holds? Is the fact my Controllers, Doms and several Blasters can hold him (think I can lump some Defenders in there, too) an "oversight" that needs correcting, as it also nullifies his "signature effect?"
If not, why not? Pulling away from the bifurcations accomplishes the same thing in a different way. |
Think about this for a second. If you had this magical ability to teleport to multiple locations simultaneously in order to recover during a battle, would you send yourself all the way down a hallway, or up out of the lava, and still not be able to rest? Probably not.
Conceptually: the Bifurcations buff Trapdoor's regeneration no matter where he is.
On the other hand, if someone froze you solid, wrapped you up in vines, chomped down on you with an ethereal shark or whatever and made it impossible for you to move whatsoever, would you be able to teleport yourself to multiple locations at once? Probably not.
Conceptually: mezzing Trapdoor will prevent him from Bifurcating.
The upcoming changes aren't the devs striking down creativity or forcing in arrogance players to do things their way. They had specific intentions going into this that weren't met due to an oversight; they are not taking action against player tactics specifically.
The fact that these changes are taking place means the devs did something wrong, yes, but what they did wrong was not allow the Bifurcations to always buff Trapdoor in the first place, NOT the fact that they're changing to work that way from now on.
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Baloney. I have never heard the word "exploit" used to describe innovative problem solving unless it gave unexpectedly large rewards. That includes completing an encounter in unexpectedly short time. I am not seeing any indication that that is the case in this scenario. If someone is willing to show otherwise, then I will accept the categorization of this as an exploit fix.|
Originally Posted by Dalantia
That's what the vast majority of developers consider the definition of exploit, actually; what players here consider clever tricks (like pulling Trapdoor out of clone range) would be considered exploits and quickly squashed in other games.
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Otherwise, calling this an exploit is a ludicrous twisting of the meaning of the word.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
It's the dictionary definition of the word....taking advantage of a situation to ones benefit.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Baloney. I have never heard the word "exploit" used to describe innovative problem solving unless it gave unexpectedly large rewards. That includes completing an encounter in unexpectedly short time. I am not seeing any indication that that is the case in this scenario. If someone is willing to show otherwise, then I will accept the categorization of this as an exploit fix.
Otherwise, calling this an exploit is a ludicrous twisting of the meaning of the word. |
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
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Originally Posted by Smurch
Yet, there's a bunch of people saying it's hard for them. So... either it is hard for them, or they're lying.
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There is a third option: They're doing it wrong.
That is not me being elitist or any other bs excuse you're going to come up with. I am not saying it necessarily IS the case, but it is a third option that you don't mention above.
So yeah, either it is hard for them, or they're lying, OR they haven't figured out how to do the encounter properly.
Kill the clones, kill Trapdoor. The only way this encounter should be hard is if your toon doesn't do enough damage to kill an EB. In that case, go get a Shivan if you so desperately need to do it without another player.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
Good he to easy. Never even done the Ol' Lava-Dip trick. 
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In that case, they should patch so he can't jump in the lava. That's taking advantage of the situation (that environment) to one's benefit. |
Originally Posted by Furio
It's the dictionary definition of the word....taking advantage of a situation to ones benefit.
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Hell, if you want to use *that* loose of a definition, they need to get rid of blaster nukes. Spawn that stays close together? The nuke would take advantage of that situation for the blaster's own benefit. Or the opportunity to pick and drop missions. Group you don't do well against so you pick another? By that loose definition, THAT's an exploit.
How far do you want to go with that definition? Or would you prefer to use the one the devs gave us a while back - excessive reward for the risk involved? (Something that is *not* the case with Trapdoor.)
(Of course, strictly speaking you're using the verb definition - to exploit something - as opposed to *an exploit,* which is what the devs defined.)
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I'd say the disconnect is the notion that risk is not part of the equation - people breaking encounters to minimize or negate the risk of defeat (as opposed to the risk inherent in completing the encounter as designed; doing things like getting out of the way of whats-his-name's AE is not an exploit, because that's an intentional part of the encounter) is often considered an exploit, as well.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Baloney. I have never heard the word "exploit" used to describe innovative problem solving unless it gave unexpectedly large rewards. That includes completing an encounter in unexpectedly short time. I am not seeing any indication that that is the case in this scenario. If someone is willing to show otherwise, then I will accept the categorization of this as an exploit fix.
Otherwise, calling this an exploit is a ludicrous twisting of the meaning of the word. |
Cities players just aren't used to that half of the equation because most characters snap the game in two far enough that "risk of defeat" is a dirty word.
(This probably comes off a lot harsher than I intend, but I don't quite know how to put it so that it's clear without seeming like an insult. My apologies.)
Dawncaller - The Circle of Dawn
Too many blasted alts to list, but all on Virtue.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
In that case, they should patch so he can't jump in the lava. That's taking advantage of the situation (that environment) to one's benefit.
Hell, if you want to use *that* loose of a definition, they need to get rid of blaster nukes. Spawn that stays close together? The nuke would take advantage of that situation for the blaster's own benefit. Or the opportunity to pick and drop missions. Group you don't do well against so you pick another? By that loose definition, THAT's an exploit. How far do you want to go with that definition? Or would you prefer to use the one the devs gave us a while back - excessive reward for the risk involved? (Something that is *not* the case with Trapdoor.) (Of course, strictly speaking you're using the verb definition - to exploit something - as opposed to *an exploit,* which is what the devs defined.) |
it's not "strictly speaking", that's the Whole Point. and you missed it.
He's making a Distinction between exploiting an advantage and "using an exploit".
Pulling him away from his clones is an exploit.
Pulling him into the lava is not.
According to the devs, inferred based on their approach to the situation.
Seems pretty clear to me.
It IS too much reward for too little risk. You're being rewarded with the ALPHA SLOT.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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If dumping him in the lava blocked the clones from upping his regen, I'm sure they would. You're reaching for extreme ridiculous scenarios to try and make your point, but really, it's just coming off as a bit silly. Bottom line, in this situation, they don't want Trapdoor to be away from his clones. The fact that they changed /fixed/ removed the one situation that could cause that to happen is the evidence of that, as they haven't outright said anything specifically. It doesn't really matter *what* you call it...bug,exploit, dev oversight, gaming the encounter, whatever. You fight Trapdoor, they want that fight to happen with the clones in the equation. Either power through their buff, or kill them and kill the buff....but they will be involved.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
In that case, they should patch so he can't jump in the lava. That's taking advantage of the situation (that environment) to one's benefit.
Hell, if you want to use *that* loose of a definition, they need to get rid of blaster nukes. Spawn that stays close together? The nuke would take advantage of that situation for the blaster's own benefit. Or the opportunity to pick and drop missions. Group you don't do well against so you pick another? By that loose definition, THAT's an exploit. How far do you want to go with that definition? Or would you prefer to use the one the devs gave us a while back - excessive reward for the risk involved? (Something that is *not* the case with Trapdoor.) (Of course, strictly speaking you're using the verb definition - to exploit something - as opposed to *an exploit,* which is what the devs defined.) |
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
The thread is still boiling down to the "go team if it's hard, congrats if it's not" people against the "I should be able to solo everything no matter what it is" people.
Going rather well for the only flame-inducing post I've ever made.
I still think that the people beating their fists on the wall should either get a team or stop trying to just smash through his regen. Back out, buy reds and purples from Ramiel, run back in and trash him and his bifurcations if it really is that difficult. The means exist to win.
Also I'm in the 'exploit fix' crowd. 
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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So a squishie pulling an EB into a hall and having to defeat it toe-to-toe is risk-free?|
Originally Posted by Dalantia
I'd say the disconnect is the notion that risk is not part of the equation - people breaking encounters to minimize or negate the risk of defeat (as opposed to the risk inherent in completing the encounter as designed; doing things like getting out of the way of whats-his-name's AE is not an exploit, because that's an intentional part of the encounter) is often considered an exploit, as well.
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You're reaching for non-existent conditions to make a point.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Also I'm in the 'exploit fix' crowd.
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Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides
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The problem is that killing the bifurcations means that he INSTANTLY respawns them, and they seem to respawn faster the faster you kill them. | Back out, buy reds and purples from Ramiel, run back in and trash him and his bifurcations if it really is that difficult. The means exist to win. |
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| Also I'm in the 'exploit fix' crowd. |
If tactics that involve the use of tools equals "exploit," I expect to see the following things removed from the game ASAP:
*all inspirations
*all snipe tools, including the Blackwand and Nemesis Staff
*shivans
*nukes
*Vanguard HVAS
*PvP zone heavies
*...and really, enhancements.
At the bottom of your slippery slope is the notion that ANYthing that helps you win a fight is a cheat, and therefore an exploit. Good luck with that line of reasoning.
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The problem is that the development team never meant for him to be pulled out of range of his clones. That was a mistake they made and so they fixed it. It is not them trying to tell you that you must stand face to face with him and fight through his regen. There are still several other tatics you can use to defeat him without trying to outdamage his regen. I don't see why everyone is so upset about this.
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Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
The problem is that killing the bifurcations means that he INSTANTLY respawns them, and they seem to respawn faster the faster you kill them.
Thank you God that you are not on the development team. They're bad enough, we don't need your mindset infiltrating them. If tactics that involve the use of tools equals "exploit," I expect to see the following things removed from the game ASAP: *all inspirations *all snipe tools, including the Blackwand and Nemesis Staff *shivans *nukes *Vanguard HVAS *PvP zone heavies *...and really, enhancements. At the bottom of your slippery slope is the notion that ANYthing that helps you win a fight is a cheat, and therefore an exploit. Good luck with that line of reasoning. |
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What do you expect from someone who even admits;|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
So a squishie pulling an EB into a hall and having to defeat it toe-to-toe is risk-free?
You're reaching for non-existent conditions to make a point. I'm in the crowd that believes calling a 'pull' an 'exploit' puts one in the 'the too ridiculous to have a reasonable discussion with' crowd. |
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Going rather well for the only flame-inducing post I've ever made.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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On many maps, the boss/AV is surrounded by a group of lesser NPCs. Since that boss is in the midst of a group, its safe to assume that the developers intend that he be fought... in the midst of that group.|
Originally Posted by Holacaust
The problem is that the development team never meant for him to be pulled out of range of his clones.
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And then on the eighth day, God I mean the developers created many and various SNIPE tools, so that that very dangerous boss can be removed from his group of supporters and defeated alone. The "pull" is a standard gaming tactic, and intimating that it is an "exploit" makes me laugh out loud.
If pulling Trapdoor away from his minions is bad, then *all* pulling of bosses away from their minions is bad, its an "exploit" and needs to be stopped ASAP!
I hope you can see how extremely silly such a supposition is.
Trapdoor is not a special snowflake, he does not deserve such extreme protection and I think his being protected in such a fashion is silly. Not to mention dangerous, because we don't want the developers getting the idea that pulling is bad.
Unless we're Nalrok, I guess. Who knows.
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| There are still several other tatics you can use to defeat him without trying to outdamage his regen. |
Now that's a recipe for success! /endsarcasm
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No. You do not get the Alpha slot as a reward for that mission.
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Originally Posted by Wavicle
It IS too much reward for too little risk. You're being rewarded with the ALPHA SLOT. |
Why give him the ability to lose the regen buff then? They could have just made it where he doesn't lose the buff (ala Recluse in the STF) based on distance. To me the fact he loses the buff based on distance from his "buffing source" would indicate a legitimate tactic. I find it hard to believe this was vetted on Test and that little detail missed the devs. If it did......wow.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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I don't understand this. Are you saying risk is not a factor in this case? Or are you saying that it should be an exploit on the basis of risk, and thus pulling him somehow minimizes the risk?|
Originally Posted by Dalantia
I'd say the disconnect is the notion that risk is not part of the equation - people breaking encounters to minimize or negate the risk of defeat (as opposed to the risk inherent in completing the encounter as designed; doing things like getting out of the way of whats-his-name's AE is not an exploit, because that's an intentional part of the encounter) is often considered an exploit, as well.
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There are only three categories of things game devs would normally change about a given scenario to remove options for completion.
- Things that are "exploitative" in the sense that they trivialize the time to completion or blow the reward for completion out of proportion to the activity. Finding a way to kill Trapdoor in seconds or a way to make him worth five bubbles of XP would be an "exploit" under this category. Finding a way to defeat him at little or no risk of defeat is a variation on this, as it almost certainly reduces time to completion.
- Things that are blatant violations of the environment, such as finding a way to clip through the walls during the fight. Even if this didn't fall into the category above, it would be fixed by most developers because it's a jarring violation of immersion.
- Things that don't mesh with the developer vision of the encounter.
Item (3) is not in any commonly accepted way a sub category of item (1). It's a wholly different category of reasoning behind making a change. It is not about balance, or bugs, or "exploits" in the common gaming sense of that word. It is a change to enforce that the players to complete the encounter only in one of the ways that the developers intend.
When a change is done for reason (3) alone, I think there is basis for complaint from the players. If reasons (1) or (2) are in the picture, I don't think there is basis for complaint that a change was made, though the nature of the change may be another matter all together.
Your position seems to be that the devs are god, and therefore what they say shouldn't be questioned - anything they disagree with is automatically an "exploit". I couldn't disagree more, and I don't accept that definition of "exploit".
As a reminder, I already found this encounter almost trivially easy using brute force tactics, solo and on elevated difficulty, on every character I have performed it on. My objection to the change is solely on my objection to changes in category (3), above.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I'm really starting to wonder if there are two versions of this encounter. With me he did nothing like this, after six different times through.|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
The problem is that killing the bifurcations means that he INSTANTLY respawns them, and they seem to respawn faster the faster you kill them.
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Are we missing something here, like he spawns more Bifurcations if you have a lot of pets deployed?
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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There were no pets on the map other than Dark Servant when I saw this: my Dark/Dark Defender was simply overwhelmed, because as fast as he killed the bifurcations, another would spawn. A Defender does not have the shielding to take being pounded on by both Trapdoor and all of these bifurcations; not to mention that Trappy can one-shot a squishy without even blinking. He has a version of Total Focus [? or something really similar] that killed my Defender with one shot several times. First I tried killingthe bifurcations, that actually made things worse. Then I tried pulling him into the control room and he would just run up and one-shot me. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I'm really starting to wonder if there are two versions of this encounter. With me he did nothing like this, after six different times through.
Are we missing something here, like he spawns more Bifurcations if you have a lot of pets deployed? |
Trying again with Servant dismissed had no noticeable effect. The next pet Trappy saw was a Shivan - and that settled the encounter nicely, no questions asked. There's "challenge" and then there's "just plain silly," the whole thing struck me as option B.
My /energy Dom however went in and mopped the floor with him due to KBing him all over the map. I am looking for him to become resistant or outright immune to both KB and fire damage soon. I just have a feeling that is how this is gonna end up.
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For defeating Trapdoor? No, you aren't. And in case you hadn't noticed, pulling him into the hallway doesn't make him helpless. He can still attack you at full strength. It's hardly "low risk."|
Originally Posted by Wavicle
It IS too much reward for too little risk. You're being rewarded with the ALPHA SLOT.
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For defeating Trapdoor, Honorree, the rogue Vanguard and the Echo of Minos and finishing the arc? THAT you're being rewarded for.
Or did you miss the rest of the missions in the arc?
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
I'm in the crowd that believes calling a 'pull' an 'exploit' puts one in the 'the too ridiculous to have a reasonable discussion with' crowd.
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| I find it hard to believe this was vetted on Test and that little detail missed the devs. If it did......wow |
It's not like this came out of the blue late in test, or after release. People were talking about how to beat trapdoor throughout test - using those exact methods.
"If you're tough enough, beat on him.
If you're slightly less, drag him to the lava and beat on him.
If you're having issues with his regen, pull him out of the room.
If you've got holds, use them."
Over and over again. Hell, PULLING isn't new.
I have beaten Trapdoor with every toon I have at level 50. From the Strongest to the weakest. Every AT except Stalker and Warshade as I do not own either of them. 35+ different combos and I was able to beat him every time.
Never pulled him out the room. Often times knocking him into the lava or making him come get me in the lava. Sometimes wiping out the copies and then turning back to him.
Purple and Red inspirations are your friends..
If they remove the ability to get him into the lava it will be a problem for some. I can see that.
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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I've done it 3 times solo, once each with the chars in my sig, and once with a crab spider.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I'm really starting to wonder if there are two versions of this encounter. With me he did nothing like this, after six different times through.
Are we missing something here, like he spawns more Bifurcations if you have a lot of pets deployed? |
The blaster was first and since I didn't realize at that point that what the clones were doing once they appeared, I got pasted. After rezzing, and getting pasted again, I came back, and started picking them off. He chased me around the room, fell in the lava and I burned him down. I don't think he ever spawned more than 2 at a time.
The MM was easiest, I'd just send my GK's off to deal with the clones while the others focused on him. Again, never more than 2 clones up at a time.
The crab had a bit more trouble, as his damage output goes way down without his spiderbots, and I can't heal them when they stupidly follow Trap into the lava. Since that fight took longer I think I remember seeing 4 at one point.
What I've never seen is the clones coming back as soon as I killed them.
Also, hyperbole, thy name is BI. Yeah, many times a boos is surrounded by minions. You snipe that boss, 9 times out of ten those minions *are* coming with him.
Trapdoor *is* a special snowflake. He has a unique ability in this game. Sure, other mobs drop emmiters, but those are intended to be location based stationary things. His are supposed to be clones of himself. Presumably being a clone of a humanoid would include the ability to do normal things humanoids can do...like walk around. Are there other ways they could have accomplished the goal of keeping the clones/buff with Trap? Sure. They could let them follow him where ever he goes, they could have made their regen buff map wide as long as they're alive. But, they didn't. I suspect having the clones use static spawns and not need pathing AI or and unheard of range on a power was simply the quickest easiest solution.
Bottom line, as I've posted before in this thread, dealing with the clones is an intended part of this fight. Circumventing them by leveraging the coding is not WAI, so it's been changed/fixed/whatever you wanna call it.
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
OK, maybe it's just a time-to-kill thing on the Bifurcations making it seem like he respawns them instantly/really soon. I did this on a DDD, but she's an IO'd out beast actually specced to do about as much damage as she possibly can.
I didn't have to lean on it, but I'd be a little surprised if Howling Twilight didn't absolutely obliterate Trapdoor's regen, even with a few Bifurcations out. Of course, if you're having trouble defeating the Bifurcations before they respawn, you might not be able to make sufficient use of the 30 seconds of floored regen against an EB's HP. My DDD killed the Bifurcations and got back to Trapdoor in short order.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Dawncaller - The Circle of Dawn
Too many blasted alts to list, but all on Virtue.