Trapdoor is getting harder.
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-12-11 24:11 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I disagree. It's not something we see regularly in THIS game since the devs here are really only just starting to experiment with specifically designed encounters but it's a lot more common in other MMOs. I can think of quite a few cases from a certain fantasy MMO where the devs did similar actions and I barely played that MMO.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Item (3) is not in any commonly accepted way a sub category of item (1). It's a wholly different category of reasoning behind making a change. It is not about balance, or bugs, or "exploits" in the common gaming sense of that word. It is a change to enforce that the players to complete the encounter only in one of the ways that the developers intend. When a change is done for reason (3) alone, I think there is basis for complaint from the players. If reasons (1) or (2) are in the picture, I don't think there is basis for complaint that a change was made, though the nature of the change may be another matter all together. |
Now in this particular case I think the devs handled it poorly, people were kiting Trapdoor in Beta, if they didn't want that they really should have fixed it then. However I consider it to, overall, be a promising sign. I think it shows that the devs are thinking about encounter design at a more than superficial level and are willing to change things when they make a mistake and release an encounter that doesn't work the way they want it to
What is surprising to me is that people are surprised that a non-showstopping bug made it through beta. Sure if pulling Trapdoor out of the room caused the game to crash and it still went live, *that* would be amazing...but really, of all the stuff in I19, the "trapdoor can still be pulled" issue is pretty minor. And minor things sliding through to live is pretty common.
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
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I'm not clear what part you disagree with. Are you disagreeing that the players have a basis for complaint?|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I disagree. It's not something we see regularly in THIS game since the devs here are really only just starting to experiment with specifically designed encounters but it's a lot more common in other MMOs. I can think of quite a few cases from a certain fantasy MMO where the devs did similar actions and I barely played that MMO.
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If so, I'm sorry, but this is one of the few times I feel justified in saying that someone's opinion is wrong. What I really think you would be expressing here, if I've correctly identified what you're disagreeing with, is that you personally agree with the devs doing this. That's not the same as saying that the players don't have a basis for complaint when the devs make changes under auspice (3). You're saying you like for the devs to do this, but that's your opinion. You're not wrong for having that opinion, but you would be wrong for suggesting that everyone else should share it.
I guess I should have said the players have a potential basis for complaint with category (3). Some may agree with a given change or not, but by definition, (3) is a mechanical change with a subjective basis. Not everyone will or should agree with the devs' subjective views. We're stuck with what they decide in the end (unless we can convince them to change it), but it's always worth voicing opinions about what we do and don't like when they are making changes - especially ones not rooted in game balance.
If instead, you feel that category (3) really qualifies for the label "exploit", I don't know what to tell you. I think that's nuts.
Edit: Let me be clear. I am not trying to say that no change of type (3) is ever going to be for the better, but I have both played under and been the game master that herded players down the "one true path" to completing an encounter. It is never as satisfying to do that than it is for the players to find a novel way to complete the encounter that has never been thought of.
"We didn't want it to work that way" is almost never a satisfactory reason for a change to any game encounter in my experience, as long as we aren't talking about something that was being changed because it was boring or something like that. I'm struggling to see how this particular change does anything to improve the experience of the Trapdoor encounter, and so to me it feels petty.
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Prove it's a bug instead of them changing their minds for whatever reason. Toggles dropping on zoning/exiting a mission/etc is a bug. (Also, add to it this, in the patch notes:|
Originally Posted by Furio
What is surprising to me is that people are surprised that a non-showstopping bug made it through beta.
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| Trapdoor no longer stops Bifurcating |
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Doesn't matter if it's a bug. Change/fix/whatever. It's not unprecedented for a non-showstopper to slip thru a beta.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Prove it's a bug instead of them changing their minds for whatever reason. Toggles dropping on zoning/exiting a mission/etc is a bug. (Also, add to it this, in the patch notes:
) |
Basically, I'm coming from the POV that in the 6+ years I've been subscribing, they've earned the benefit of the doubt from me. Based on what I experienced, I'm willing to write off this change to this encounter as correcting a slip up between intention and execution
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
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I should not even have to explain this.... smart pullers never target the boss, they target the minions, kill them one by one and then they take down the boss. If the boss comes along that is one thing, but the boss is never the intent of the pull. Except perhaps for Rommy.| Furio: You snipe that boss, 9 times out of ten those minions *are* coming with him. |
Good gravy, what next. Claims that killing the towers one by one in the STF is "an exploit" because the developers intended Recluse to be fought with them all up? They must have, after all he is in range of the towers and so taking the towers out is "an exploit!!1!!11"
Massive eye-roll here.
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| Someone else: The development team did not intend for you to pull him away from those clones |
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I've honestly been eye-rolling at your last few posts in this thread. You're letting rampant speculation govern your replies without taking into account that this may actually have been a combat oversight by the devs.|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
Massive eye-roll here.
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God forbid someone on a forum is wrong, though.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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Really?? So if you were able to pull an AV, EB, or plain boss into a Hallway and his powers stoped working you wouldn't think that maybe just maybe something is wrong? That maybe the developers made a mistake or maybe there was a bug. If the developers intended for you to fight Recluse with the towers up then you would not be able to kill them. The developers want you to fight Trapdoor with his clones so now you can't pull him out.
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Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
I should not even have to explain this.... smart pullers never target the boss, they target the minions, kill them one by one and then they take down the boss. If the boss comes along that is one thing, but the boss is never the intent of the pull. Except perhaps for Rommy.
Good gravy, what next. Claims that killing the towers one by one in the STF is "an exploit" because the developers intended him to be fought with them all up? They must have, after all they placed Recluse in range of them so taking out the towers is an "exploit!!1!!11" Massive eye-roll here. |
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The problem here is that you are talking as if pulling Trappy into the control room nullifies all his powers. Haha, not so fast: he has that one-shot melee power that seems to have a 100% chance to hit. It certainly hit my Defender and it hit him good. Multiple times.|
Originally Posted by Holacaust
Really?? So if you were able to pull an AV, EB, or plain boss into a Hallway and his powers stoped working you wouldn't think that maybe just maybe something is wrong? That maybe the developers made a mistake or maybe there was a bug.
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| If the developers intended for you to fight Recluse with the towers up then you would not be able to kill them. The developers want you to fight Trapdoor with his clones so now you can't pull him out. |
Trappy is ranged AND melee. If you forget that he will be happy to remind you. All this is academic to me, because I won't be running anyone else through this for a good long while. For which I feel great relief.
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Do you really think that the developers went through the trouple of coming up with this cool new ability and have him not use it? This whole argument has reached the point where it is now stupid. It doesn't matter if you like it or not the Developers have made it so you can't pull him out of the room anymore so everyone will just have to deal with it.
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Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
The problem here is that you are talking as if pulling Trappy into the control room nullifies all his powers. Haha, not so fast: he has that one-shot melee power that seems to have a 100% chance to hit. It certainly hit my Defender and it hit him good. Multiple times.
Also, once again your reasoning is wrong: if the developers intended Trappy to be fought with all his clones up, we would not be able to kill them. See what I did there? OK Trappy is ranged AND melee. If you forget that he will be happy to remind you. All this is academic to me, because I won't be running anyone else through this for a good long while. For which I feel great relief. |
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You forgot about the interrupt with trap powers. You can't lay traps while getting pounded. The animation also factors into traps survivability. Possibly because traps is a set meant for the most part to be used/set up before combat not during. Also, you can try to "pull" badguys with your primary but you can't kite because there are no toggles
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
Traps defender has poison trap right? Poison trap has -1000% regen.. so..umm.. toe bomb poison trap, and hover blast him?
Or, kite him into the laval and web nade him there? Or using a combination of seeker drones, FFG and acid mortar just debuff him down to spit, and brawl him to death? I mean really a */traps defender should be able to just breath heavily on trapdoor and kill him. |
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
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The only traps power with an interupt is Trip Mine.|
Originally Posted by EnigmaBlack
You forgot about the interrupt with trap powers. You can't lay traps while getting pounded. The animation also factors into traps survivability. Possibly because traps is a set meant for the most part to be used/set up before combat not during. Also, you can try to "pull" badguys with your primary but you can't kite because there are no toggles
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Oh, and Time Bomb, if your unlucky enough to be playing a Defender or Corruptor version...and daft enough to have taken it
Everything else has no interupt.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Like that tech just said, the only power in /traps with an interrupt is trip mine and time bomb. Everything else you can use while standing in autohit caltrops, and you'll never be interrupted.|
Originally Posted by EnigmaBlack
You forgot about the interrupt with trap powers. You can't lay traps while getting pounded. The animation also factors into traps survivability. Possibly because traps is a set meant for the most part to be used/set up before combat not during. Also, you can try to "pull" badguys with your primary but you can't kite because there are no toggles
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Apparently you don't understand what i meant by 'kite'. This means having said enemy follow you around while your moving. This doesn't mean putting a toggle on him, and draggin him around with that.
There are plenty of ways to down trapdoor, and a */traps should have 0 issue with it. He could have an entire room full of clones, and your poison trap is still setting his regen at 0%.
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No he wasn't.|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
The problem here is that you are talking as if pulling Trappy into the control room nullifies all his powers. Haha, not so fast: he has that one-shot melee power that seems to have a 100% chance to hit. It certainly hit my Defender and it hit him good. Multiple times.
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Also I have yet to see that power; I ran this on a controller and a corruptor and neither of them were one-shotted. Invest in defense or, like I mentioned earlier, grab some purples.
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Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
Also, once again your reasoning is wrong: if the developers intended Trappy to be fought with all his clones up, we would not be able to kill them. See what I did there? OK
Trappy is ranged AND melee. If you forget that he will be happy to remind you. |
Oh wait.
(Interesting side note for you: Almost all enemies in the game have both ranged and melee powers.)
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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Given the fact they've had a very similar issue before (Recluse in the STF being weakened by being pulled from his "buffers"), it seems to me that them putting a range limit on the buff would be the way the encounter was intended. Otherwise they would have just given it unlimited (or big enough for the map, however it's coded) range like Recluse. It's not about "did they miss something" and more about 'how can they miss that ?' when a very similar situation was changed in the past. It just seems to me that someone either really screwed up or they are taking back their original intent. I'm not whining or moaning really though, it's still possible to get him out of that room and even if you don't the encounter isn't really that hard to pull off. I'm just stating what it looks like to me.
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Originally Posted by Furio
Doesn't matter if it's a bug. Change/fix/whatever. It's not unprecedented for a non-showstopper to slip thru a beta.
Basically, I'm coming from the POV that in the 6+ years I've been subscribing, they've earned the benefit of the doubt from me. Based on what I experienced, I'm willing to write off this change to this encounter as correcting a slip up between intention and execution |
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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I think you may have misread Bad Influence - I read it as meaning that they've run several of their own alts through the arc but won't be running any more through soon.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
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By my mohawk shall ye know me!
my toons
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I not only said interrupt, but also animation times|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
Like that tech just said, the only power in /traps with an interrupt is trip mine and time bomb. Everything else you can use while standing in autohit caltrops, and you'll never be interrupted.
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
Apparently you don't understand what i meant by 'kite'. This means having said enemy follow you around while your moving. This doesn't mean putting a toggle on him, and draggin him around with that.
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
There are plenty of ways to down trapdoor, and a */traps should have 0 issue with it. He could have an entire room full of clones, and your poison trap is still setting his regen at 0%.
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With that said it may all be a moot point for me because post I19 I can not run a TF without constant map server discons entering missions. No TFs=No shards=what's the point of the Incarnate system?
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
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... that makes much more sense, thank you.
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Originally Posted by Judgement_Dave
I think you may have misread Bad Influence - I read it as meaning that they've run several of their own alts through the arc but won't be running any more through soon.
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My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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You tell me....you're the one who said this:|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
I should not even have to explain this.... smart pullers never target the boss, they target the minions, kill them one by one and then they take down the boss. If the boss comes along that is one thing, but the boss is never the intent of the pull. Except perhaps for Rommy.
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"And then on the eighth day, God I mean the developers created many and various SNIPE tools, so that that very dangerous boss can be removed from his group of supporters and defeated alone. The "pull" is a standard gaming tactic, and intimating that it is an "exploit" makes me laugh out loud."
After playing a blaster since day -3, I know what I do when I pull, but I don't know you, so I can only go by what you've written....and what you wrote there looks like you were talking about pulling the boss, not thinning out his minions.
In this *specific* instance, pulling Trapdoor out of his room (which is empty save for him at the start of the fight) is taking advantage the Devs' oversight. That's all. There is no slippery slope. In this *specific* encounter, the player has to deal with Trapdoor's power without pulling. All of your hyperbolic slippery slope fallacy arguments are just that...fallacies.
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
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Originally Posted by EnigmaBlack
I not only said interrupt, but also animation times
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Originally Posted by EnigmaBlack
You forgot about the interrupt with trap powers. You can't lay traps while getting pounded.
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My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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YOU WERE THERE with me during my solo mission, and saw everything that went down? AWESOME! Is that a temp power? Can I purchase it in the NCSoft store? | Nalrok: No he wasn't. |
...and yeah, sorry guy but Trappy did indeed one-shot my Def several times with whatever it is he uses as his main melee strike. This is why my squishys dislike fighting him in close range.
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| Also I have yet to see that power; I ran this on a controller and a corruptor and neither of them were one-shotted. Invest in defense or, like I mentioned earlier, grab some purples. |
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| Furio: After playing a blaster since day -3, I know what I do when I pull, but I don't know you, so I can only go by what you've written....and what you wrote there looks like you were talking about pulling the boss, not thinning out his minions. |
*****
Let me parse this for those who find it confusing: "All this is academic to me, because I won't be running anyone else through this for a good long while. For which I feel great relief" means that all of my current level 50s whom I am interested in making Incarnate, have already been run through the arc. I won't be facing Trappy alone again anytime soon, and for that I am thankful.
Of course by then, who knows what this arc will look like, but right now its academic to me. What concerns me is this idea that somehow, seperating the boss from his minions is eEEEEeee-vil. Uh... no. We've been doing it for years.
No...it's not evil. it's just not the intention of this *specific* encounter.
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
While we're all sitting here debating this. From todays patchnotes:
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Just ran the arc with my Illusion/Cold/Ice troller. For what it's worth I was able to pull him with ease all the way to the spot where you drop down from the previous level. While I didn't ever see any of his bifurcations in the entry room or the hallway his regen was still powerful (I'd even say it seemed stronger than previous) and was unable to drop him. So I assume the last line in the notes on this mission means the range of the buff has been increased like it was with Recluse in the STF. Going to switch my strategy out a bit and tweak a few things and see how much of a change this is to the mission. At this point it looks like his regen has increased but will check and see for sure.
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Mender Ramiel Story Arc Added more detailed description of what is needed to access Mender Ramiel’s arc when you speak with him. Trapdoor no longer stops Bifurcating. Trapdoor will mix up the location of his bifurcations a little bit more. Trapdoor can no longer be dragged out of range of his Bifurcations. |
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
Really speaking, the way i look at it is here is an enemy who is [in comparison] quite weak, however once a battle starts he gradually gets more powerfull over time. Now not in powerfull as in strength, but as in his regeneration making him impossible to kill and thus only a matter of time before he kills you.
Really speaking, it was about time we had an enemy in which you did only have a short amount of time to kill him before he started to overpower you.
Now lets look at the trapdoor fight in detail and try and work out whether or not it is too hard.
Trapdoors health/attack strength:
Both of these are where they should be for an EB battle when you think about it. His base stats are not that high when you compare him to other EBs and when you consider that he is indeed an incarnate. Yes he can one/two shot you if you get unlucky, however there are many EBs out there who can do a whole lot worse. Think Frostfire at a low level, remember how many times a whole TEAM used to wipe out back in the day? Even the fused titans at a boss level are imo harder [stats wise] that trapdoor. So when you compare his initial strength/health to other characters in the game? I'ld have to say that my verdict is . . .
Verdict: Thumbs up
The regeneration clones:
These have very low health and can be easily taken down in a few hits. I tend to leave one alive personally to save on time, however if you start to get two up at a point, then his regeneration gets to levels which you do have to take care of them. They dont move which helps a lot and are easy to spot. Maybe if they really were classed as being able to be one shot by ANY power [turn into a level 1 critter for example], then maybe people would find them easier to take down. A slight suggestion i heard people say is to get the clones spawn in a certain location all bunched together, i dont think thats a good idea because it'ld make it far too easy, if they went that route they may as well turn the clones into a stationery object like a computer or his incarate shard. To help against this though, im not sure if its possible but would it be possible to increase the regeneration of an enemy depending on the number of players on a team? So people who want the challenge can stay at x3 difficulty for example.
Verdict: Time frame that the clones spawn needs to be increased but apart from that, thumbs up.
Lava strategy:
This is the main strategy that i hear ingame on the chat channels all the time. "Pull him into the lava, it'll help greatly!", now is this a valid tactic or would you class it as an exploit? Personally i'ld say its using the environment to your advantage, when you are in a fight you have to use anything thats available to you to help you win a tough fight. The damage that the lava does though, that needs to be decreased because it is far too high and makes the fight a LOT easier [also, if he dies in the lava, its dangerous for the player to talk to him in the lava!]. Add it so that he resists a certain part of the damage [special suit?] and it'ld be ok.
Verdict: Using this strategy is fine currently and not an exploit, however the damage scale of it does need to be brought down slightly. For that point, i have to give it a thumbs down.
Snipe and pull:
This has been in the game now since the start. People on normal PUG teams in paper missions have been saying "pull the stormie/engineer" for years. Even against old EB's we have been saying to pull the minions/EB first and deal with it that way, its a valid strategy and the fact that its used on a taskforce as new as the ITF means that a lot of people [including the devs because its still not changed] think it is valid. Not all ATs have decent snipe powers and so for me, my verdict is . . .
Verdict: Thumbs up
Use of inspirations/temps:
My ill/rad would not have been able to have done this mission first time was it not for the help of inspirations. Inspirations are designed to help a character and it is true that they can make a character godlike for a brief amount of time, but that is an exploit that has always been in here. I do think however that temp powers and using a lot of them is a bad exploit in certain situations. This is one of those situations in which temp powers should be excluded imo.
Verdict: Inspirations = thumbs up Temps = thumbs down
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And then on the eighth day, God I mean the developers created many and various SNIPE tools, so that that very dangerous boss can be removed from his group of supporters and defeated alone. The "pull" is a standard gaming tactic, and intimating that it is an "exploit" makes me laugh out loud.
If pulling Trapdoor away from his minions is bad, then *all* pulling of bosses away from their minions is bad, its an "exploit" and needs to be stopped ASAP!
I hope you can see how extremely silly such a supposition is.
Trapdoor is not a special snowflake, he does not deserve such extreme protection and I think his being protected in such a fashion is silly. Not to mention dangerous, because we don't want the developers getting the idea that pulling is bad.
Unless we're Nalrok, I guess. Who knows.
In all deadly seriousness I ask, then what are they? Because right now, squishys are being asked to stand toe-to-toe with Trappy and have not only him hitting them with everything he has, but all of his bifurcations hitting them too... and remember, the faster you kill them the faster he spawns them [Or so it seems to me]. All this on top of his killer +regen. If your squishy does not have KB to deal with him, you're sorta, well... doomed.
Now that's a recipe for success! /endsarcasm