Trapdoor is getting harder.

Yeah, it was a poor word choice. I don't particularly mind if players want to complain about it but I, personally, believe that the devs should make these sort of changes when they feel they are justified.

The only reason I say it shouldn't be labeled an "exploit" is because of the negative connotations associated with the term. From a practical point of view drawing him into the corridor is defeating him in a manner not intended by the devs and from a literal point of view that makes it an exploit. Now in this particular case it's pretty much harmless and there is no indication that the devs did not intend this behavior so if the devs actually treated it as an exploit by punishing players who used it I would be the first to say "WTF?". I don't like using the term "unintended behavior" because it feels like a weasel word but since "exploit" has negative connotations it's probably a better word to apply.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here. I do tend to agree that herding players down a "one true path" is a poor idea in a pen and paper game but conversely I tend to agree with it in MMOs. In P&P games you will, generally, only have a particular encounter once so whatever way you do it it's interesting (assuming a good plot). In MMOs you will likely do the same encounter many, many, times so different parameters apply and, IMHO, eliminating methods of subverting interesting encounters is a worthy goal for the dev team.

As for how it makes the encounter better, it's preventing players from changing the fight from one with moderately interesting mechanics to a simple tank n' spank. Fighting Trapdoor in the main room he is marginally more interesting than most other EBs/AVs in the game. He has very high regen which anyone can "debuff" by killing the bifurcations as well as the possibility of luring him into the lava for more damage. Out in the hall he's the same as every other EB/AV int he game: a large bag of hitpoints you have to pound into submission.

Now in this particular instance I wouldn't have cared if they had left it alone. It's a story arc I'll run once per character, solo, so what other people do doesn't affect me. However I think the dev's willingness to fix this shows a good mindset, they don't want players using unintended behavior to avoid interesting encounters. MMO players are primarily reward driven and if they can find a way to do an encounter faster/safer they generally will even if it's less interesting.

For example suppose the Battle Maiden fight in Apex had had a bug where dragging her to a specific area eliminated the blue things of death. Pretty much every team would use that bug because it's easier than dodging and, to me, that would be a huge waste.

You misunderstand. I was saying "no he wasn't" to you implying that Holacaust was deliberately saying Trapdoor lost all his powers when you pulled him into the hall. Which he was not. So, no he wasn't.

Take your own advice. Just because you haven't seen what's happened with other players doesn't mean it didn't happen, such as being able to beat the mission with ease. That's the biggest problem with the arguments against this particular task; those who had trouble with it refuse to believe others have not. You are among them.

Follow up:

I pulled him (easily) over halfway down the hallway, had my pets, debuffs, attacks on him for long enough to realize that it wasn't going to work so it now seems distance doesn't remove his debuff.

I altered strategy and pulled him to the lava. Same thing and even in the lava it was a stalemate. Couldn't ever get him below 75% health using all pets and debuffs available. As soon as I took out his bifurcations he went down like any other NPC. So it seems that now (solo at least unaided by temp pets or heavy buffs) that you do need to take out the bifurcations in order to take him down after todays patch. *Note- even benumb didn't seem to matter while the bifurcations were still up.

Just a friendly fyi, no opinion as to the changes or encounter.

Wasn't it your side of the argument that called it an "exploit" in the first place?
Why didn't you call it an "oversight correction" instead of an "exploit", if that's what you really thought it was to begin with?

I agree that the Devs probably overlooked the Bifurcation issue, much like they over looked massive team rezzing from an Oil Slick Arrow. Probably not enough to get a "WTf?" from the powers guys though. However, I think they could have fixed the issue in other, less hand-slapping, ways.

My Warshade got 1-shotted through about 60% defense. (several Purple pills eaten)
Yes, they do get lucky and roll under 5% at times. (or is that 10% for EBs)
And his hits hurt a LOT. Especially when your toggles just dropped.
Fortunately, I had done just enough damage to him that the Warshade's Rez power defeated him.

Yes, I defeated Trapdoor with a Rez.

Oh yes they can get lucky. My Ice/Ice blaster had Frozen Armor and two medium purples, and got hit four times in a row. I didn't get 1-shotted, but I couldn't keep up and got killed. Stupidly bad luck. After I got back and tried the same thing, he didn't hit me once and I clobbered him easily.

But that was the only time I got killed doing that mission, and I did it with 11 different characters.

No. YOU are MAKING UP the slippery slope.

The devs, through their actions, have indicated that they believe pulling him away from his clones makes the fight too easy.

There is NOTHING else they have indicated they feel that way about. (EDIT: My bad, there is one precedent. Recluse in the STF had almost the exact same change made.)

Quit putting words in people's mouths.

Yes I see quite well that it is a Completely ridiculous supposition.

SO WHY DO YOU INSIST ON MAKING IT?


Trapdoor is NOT the same as All other bosses in the game. The Ramiel arc is an introduction to the end game content that began its release in this issue. A main feature of that content is going to be end boss encounters with Encounter Specific Mechanics.

YOU and others in this thread who share your opinion are insisting that Trapdoor must be treated Just like all other bosses in the game. The devs, through their design and subsequent actions, have shown that they see this as a different kind of encounter.

Stop whining and eat some damn inspirations already.

Ok, I'm late on this discussion. But you peaked my curiosity. What instructions are you talking about?

I hate to be seen as supporting B_I in any way, but they HAVE - in the cases of many of the powers above - indicated a sense of either the power being "too good" (Shivans - really, any risk these days in PVP zones, which was supposed to be their "balance?") or outright banning them from other encounters (Warburg nukes.)

It's *not* that big a stretch to see they may decide to neuter those in this and other encounters, either. If a *pull* - a standard tactic - is "bad" because, in your own words, "it makes the fight too easy," then yes, I *would* see it as perfectly reasonable to assume Shivans (don't take long to get, don't really have to fight anything but turrets) would get banned from this, and that Trappy would get EB/AV level hold resistance (as mentioned earlier) as that makes it even LESS of a fight than pulling. And, frankly, that either he'd get some fire resistance, or the lava would be "cooled off."

I mean, really, it's been said a pull is bad because it makes the fight too easy, but holds are perfectly fine. Let's compare the two:

+ = Good for player
- = Bad for player

PULLING:
+ Removes him from the source of his regeneration
- Lets him fight back at full damage and full strength
- Lets him maintain maneuverability.

HOLDING:
+Doesn't let him bifurcate, removing any chance of regen
+Doesn't let him fight back
+Doesn't let him move.

So - given several *common NPCs* have higher hold protection than trappy here, why aren't you campaigning for a tactic which is JUST as fair of a use of powers, which makes the fight even EASIER, to get yanked by giving him insane hold protection? It's not even like he'd be the only extremely-hard-to-hold AV (or for that matter incarnate) in the arc, as Honoree shrugged off most holds I tried stacking at him.

Sorry, but your "It makes the fight too easy" argument just doesn't hold water.

See my Guides and Tutorials

Where was your Damage Resistance?

I can't conceive of my Warshade being 1 shotted by anything with Energy melee.

Sorry you have such a feeble grasp of the way the game works.

Holds are a TOONS POWER.

Pulling is not.

See the difference?


They are HAPPY to have you either Hold him (if your toon is capable of that) or bring a friend who can do so.

What they are Not happy with is for you to gain even ONE of the advantages of holding him without actually having done so.

Again, seems pretty clear to me.

Remember you said that. Just... remember.

So, that ranged blast they use to do so isn't part of the character, or the maneuverability (also used for things like not getting into melee if that would be bad for you) isn't?

Again, you're making the argument that *using a power and moving while still being at risk of ranged and melee attack* is "too easy," while *using a power which puts you under no risk of attack at all* is not.

See my Guides and Tutorials

Yes. You do.

EITHER it is one of several missions all of which must be completed to get the Alpha Slot (therefore the Alpha Slot is one of the rewards for completing that mission)

OR

you AUTO COMPLETE ALL OF THE OTHERS meaning you do THAT mission and NO other and get the Alpha Slot.

So YES, they DO IN FACT reward you with the Alpha Slot for completing that mission.

Perhaps this sentence will lend some insight:
Especially when your toggles just dropped.

Wow. You even argue with yourself.

What did Glen there say - "You do not get the alpha slot for completing that mission." It's a very straightforward statement, but I'll break it down for you:

You - the player.

Do not - a negative state

Get - to be rewarded

The alpha slot - the reward

For completing that mission - note it's not "the arc," but THAT MISSION, indicating a singular encounter. Namely, the fight to and with Trapdoor.

The opposite of that would be "You DO get the alpha slot for completing that mission," which means at the end of THAT MISSION, you are awarded it. You defeat trapdoor, get yellow text saying "Alpha Slot Unlocked."

Do you get that? No.

Therefore, you do NOT get the alpha slot for completing that mission, any more than you get it for talking to Statesman/Recluse, Lady Grey, defeating Holz or the Honoree. You get it for completing the arc, of which the Trapdoor fight is an *early part.* You could *conceivably* say you get it for defeating the Echo of Minos, as once you do, you can pass to the next room where you click the glowie and are awarded with it.

You get the alpha slot for finishing ALL of the missions. Not for finishing Trapdoor. You get Inf for finishing Trapdoor. You may get Prestige. You may get a recipe, enhancement, salvage or merit drop for doing so. You do NOT get the Alpha slot.

See my Guides and Tutorials

Yes, that is exactly the argument that I am making.



That is the argument the devs have set up. The characters that get powerful Holds get that level of protection as return for having sacrificed greater damage, greater hit points, etc, etc. The character with ranged damage but no Holds is not SUPPOSED to be able to attack with that much impunity.

What you are arguing against here is the whole AT design in the first place.

SOME toons get to fight Held enemies who can't attack them back. Not all toons. That is no different in this encounter than in any other.


What YOUR problem is is that you keep insisting on looking at this fight as the same as any other end boss in any solo mission.

Think of him more like a soloable version of Recluse from the end of the STF.



Really the problem here is that most of the game is SO EASY and STRAIGHTFORWARD that when the devs FINALLY give us some content that makes you have to change your approach based on the encounter at hand people like you and BI start losing your minds and complaining that it's too hard.

If we had been having to figure our way through puzzles and challenges for many levels this wouldn't be an issue.

Dwarf form? Break frees? Seriously, you went into melee against someone with Energy melee attacks and you didn't use BFs or Dwarf?

This is why arguments like this devolve to L2P. Because you need to.

This argument is retarded.

ONE of the things you have to do to get the alpha slot is defeat Trapdoor.

In fact that's actually the ONLY thing you have to do since the rest of the arc can be autocompleted.



The Giants won the World Series. Was their ring awarded to them for winning the final game of the series? NO, it was awarded for having won FOUR games. ALL FOUR are part of the victory, AND the ring is a reward for ALL OF IT.

The Alpha Slot is rewarded for having done or skipped several missions AND defeating Trapdoor.

You people are not stupid enough to misunderstand this.

Then I'll point out that you're a fool.

Excuse me?

You mean me, who's fought him with non-IO'd-out characters, EVERY AT? Show me where I said it was "too hard." Go ahead. Dig up that quote. Dig HARD. You wont' find it, because I never stated that.

Listen VERY closely.

I DISAGREE VEHEMENTLY WITH REMOVING WHAT HAS BEEN A VALID OPTION THAT PLAYS TO SOME CHARACTERS STRENGTHS. You know, just like high defense, high damage, or holds. Do you get it now, or do you need it pounded into that cement block of a skull of yours even more?

You gripe at BI for putting words in other peoples mouths. Don't do it yourself, or just ask to change your handle to "Hypocrite."

As for changing the encounter? Yes. It's a puzzle. "What's making him regen, and what can I do to defeat that?" We had multiple options before. We have one LESS option now.

FEWER options for dealing with an encounter is a BAD THING.

Simple enough for you?

And yet one of the solutions FOR said puzzle ("What can I do to defeat his regen?") is being taken away, and you call it a good thing. Do you even listen to yourself?

See my Guides and Tutorials

Isn't that what he is saying...?

Yep, yet somehow he wants to paint it as getting it after one game even after that argument.

See my Guides and Tutorials

I'm not going to respond to your bs ad hominem attacks.

IN THE DEVS OPINION, pulling him away from the regen makes it too easy. That's all that matters.

They are happy with you holding him. They are happy with everything but pulling him away from his clones.

Your histrionics are all moot.



Did you whine like this about the STF too?

Ever think they may not HAVE dwarf form? Y'know, one of the OPTIONS of playing a Kheld is to take or not take the forms. Amazingly enough.

L2P yourself.

See my Guides and Tutorials

No, you are misreading.

The Trapdoor fight is ONE of the things you must do to get the Alpha Slot.

The Alpha Slot is one of the rewards for completing the arc that makes you fight Trapdoor.


Therefore the Alpha Slot is among the POTENTIAL rewards for defeating Trapdoor.



Arguing against that is just silly.