Trapdoor is getting harder.

If he is fighting a mezzing boss and didn't take dwarf and can't hold the boss and didn't use BFs then he needs to L2P. It's as simple as that.




Next your going to tell me that taking Unyielding is merely an option for an Invuln scrapper and that an encounter that can't be defeated by an Invuln scrapper who lacks UY is too hard or that the player didn't do anything wrong.

Yea, taking Dwarf is an option, but if you don't exercise that option then DON'T COMPLAIN WHEN YOU DIE DUE TO GETTING HELD.

Didn't even have to look far for those from you.

Hypocrite.

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No. It is the reward for FINISHING THE ARC.

I don't get an end-of-mission reward for defeating the third minion in a normal mission.

I don't get an end-of-arc reward for finishing the second mission in it.

You do not get the alpha slot for defeating trapdoor. It's not a POTENTIAL reward. In no instance whatsoever do you get rewarded with an alpha slot for defeating trapdoor. Neither trapdoor nor his mission rewards you with the alpha slot in any way, shape, or form.

INF is a guaranteed reward.
XP potentially is, if you haul along someone who's not 50.
A salvage drop is a POTENTIAL reward.
A recipe is a potential reward.

Do you understand the difference?

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I think the difference is not significant in this case.

You don't get the Alpha Slot directly for defeating Trapdoor, no.

But you also don't get the Alpha Slot WITHOUT defeating Trapdoor.

Therefore you must defeat Trapdoor to get the Alpha Slot.

Therefore the Alpha Slot is a reward for having done several things INCLUDING defeating Trapdoor.

I do?
OK, for my edification then, some questions I'd like answered.
1) What 4XP difficulty level was Twisted Toon using in Mender Ramiel's arc?
2) What was Twisted Toon's inspiration loadout at the start of the Trapdoor mission?
3) What was Twisted Toon's inspiration loadout at the start of the Trapdoor fight?
4) How long after the start of the Trapdoor fight were Twisted Toon's toggles dropped?
5) What was Twisted Toon fighting when his toggles were dropped?
6) How long after Twisted Toon's toggles were dropped did the killshot land?
7) Do you believe the only way to build a viable Warshade is to include Dwarf form?
8) What improvements to Twisted Toon's inspiration loadout do you recommend?
9) What improvements to Twisted Toon's combat techniques do you recommend?

Most? You sure about that? Since I can do so without a big issue for most mobs. Might want to check your facts before making an argument.

Is the option there in the first place? No?
Stop setting up strawmen to pretend you have an argument.

Gee, ya think?
Do you pay attention to what you read? Here, let me quote myself from a prior post:

Now, can you answer your own question, or do I need to spell that out for you as well?

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Uh huh.
Congrats.
True.
You must defeat Trapdoor to progress along the arc. You are never rewarded with an alpha slot - now read this phrase carefully - *for defeating Trapdoor.*
However, the Alpha Slot is not, as you have been arguing, a - let me choose the wording carefully here - a reward upon trapdoor's defeat. Which is what it appears you've been arguing.

IF Trapdoor were (a) the only thing you had to do, or (b) were the final encounter? I could, *maybe,* see this as an argument. However, (a) he's not a "real" Incarnate, and (b) you have to fight touger opponents later (will anyone argue Honoree is easier than Trapdoor?) so removing an otherwise valid tactic sits *very* poorly with me.

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I don't have the answers to 1 through 4. 5 is Trapdoor, duh. I don't have the answer to 6.

7 is no, but I would expect the WS that did not take Dwarf to either die to mezzers a lot or carry extra BFs. HOWEVER, I do think that the only viable way to build a Melee toon includes taking whatever mez protection is available. By that token I would STRONGLY ENCOURAGE all WSs to take Dwarf and I MYSELF would never make a WS without Dwarf. So only viable way, no, only intelligent way? Unless you have incredible amounts of set bonus defense, pretty much.

8 has options. You could take a bunch of purples, some reds, a couple BFs. Or you could take a few oranges, a bunch of reds and a few BFs. Either would probably work. If one doesn't work, try the other.

9 is easy, use Dwarf or a BF when you get mezzed, or maybe even use a BF prior to getting mezzed so that you don't Have to use Dwarf form thereby keeping your damage up. Haven't done this mission yet on my WS, so I can't say for sure, but I'm going to assume you can summon fluffies from the clones. You also have a Hold and an Immobilize available to you. Again, I'm not certain, but they could conceivably be of use.



Above all though, with Dwarf OR BFs there is no reason you should be dying because of your toggles being down. I could see dying cause he just hit you too hard and your heals weren't effective enough, but dying to a mez? Just poor play.

You forgot to ask for a "correct" build.

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You think it was a valid option. The devs do not. Case closed.

Funny, I don't see your name in red. And if you think a dev decision - even one that made it live - is set in stone, I'm sure a nice litany of changes that were rolled back or removed later will follow. (See fear in burn, armors running exclusively, various EB/AV regen rate adjustments....)

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No, I never argued anything of the sort. You may have inferred it, but since it's clearly false I can't imagine why you would think I would argue such a thing.



You DON'T have to fight Honoree or Holtz. That mission can be auto completed.

Are you seriously this dim?

If the devs thought it was a valid option they would not have removed it. That's a huge freakin "duh".

Just like if the devs thought pulling Recluse away from his towers was a valid option they would have left it in.

Just like if they thought killing the towers one at a time before defeating Recluse was NOT a valid option they would have removed it.

In MOST cases we can guess what the devs think is a valid option. There are not many bugs, design flaws, etc that help the players greatly that get left in. Not many at all.

I don't have to be a dev to guess what the devs think is invalid. I can infer based on their behavior.


EDIT, to respond to your edit: Yeah, they can change their mind about what they think is valid. That in no way changes anything.

You should start arguing for that option to be removed, given your other stances. They are, after all (well, Honoree) a tougher fight.

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For someone griping about "ad hominem attacks," you sure like making them.
Hmm. On the one hand, you say "Case closed," meaning there can be no further argument - something you do not have the right or authority to say.

On the other, you admit that they change their minds - yet somehow think that "doesnt' change anything."

Clue for you: This is called "Player Feedback." Guess what may just push them to change back?

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I agree with ClawsandEffect that none of the missions in this arc should have been autocompletable in the first place. But since they are I don't really care enough to have them change that.

Yep, and that's all fine. However, as yet, I don't believe anyone in this thread has constructed an argument that suggests the encounter is truly too difficult for any particular powerset combo. Some particular power choices might make it harder or easier, but the devs really cannot be expected to balance every encounter for all possible gimped or nongimped builds.

If the devs determine that it IS too hard they can make it easier WITHOUT allowing people to circumvent the primary mechanic of the fight.

If you don't know the answers to 2 and 3 you can't intelligently answer 8.
If you didn't watch the fight you can't intelligently answer 9.

Here's what we know about Twisted Toon's Warshade fight:
Trapdoor was nearly dead (Stygian Return doesn't do much damage).
Twisted Toon's toggles dropped.
Twisted Toon's character was killed.

From that meager amount of information you presumed to tell someone who wasn't even in the fight to L2P.

Goodbye.

The fact that you died from being mezzed when he had so little life that you finished him with your rez shows me that you need to do SOMETHING different. You needed to hit him ONE more time. Your AT has access to a mez protection power THAT CAN BE HIT WHILE MEZZED and gives you access to damaging attacks. Apparently you didn't take or didn't use that power. I don't have to be there to know you're doing something wrong.


I seriously don't understand people complaining they are having a hard time with something and then getting angry or hurt when people suggested things they could be doing differently.

Fire/Kin - If it's a controller, he's vulnerable to holds.
Fire/EM - Blaster or Tank?
Grav/TA - See Fire/Kin. It's a sleepwalk on anything with holds.

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You know what. This is crap. I'm not going to be bullied like this.

If you want REAL answers to what you could do different then YOU TELL ME what you did at first instead of expecting me to guess.

But yea, I'll repeat. Based ONLY on the information you provide HERE.

Trapdoor was nearly dead (Stygian Return doesn't do much damage).
Twisted Toon's toggles dropped.
Twisted Toon's character was killed.

You died because you got mezzed in a fight where you only needed to hit him ONE MORE TIME.

You did something wrong. With no more information I can assuredly say you could have hit Dwarf. If you didn't TAKE Dwarf then that's something you did wrong. Your AT gets a power to deal with mezzes. If you don't take it then you should expect to have problems with mezzes.


With more information I could be more specific, but you'd apparently rather play guessing games than actually say what inspirs you brought, what your build is, or what your strategy was.