Trapdoor is getting harder.
Did you whine like this about the STF too? |
This is why arguments like this devolve to L2P. Because you need to. |
Hypocrite.
No, you are misreading.
The Trapdoor fight is ONE of the things you must do to get the Alpha Slot. The Alpha Slot is one of the rewards for completing the arc that makes you fight Trapdoor. Therefore the Alpha Slot is among the POTENTIAL rewards for defeating Trapdoor. |
I don't get an end-of-mission reward for defeating the third minion in a normal mission.
I don't get an end-of-arc reward for finishing the second mission in it.
You do not get the alpha slot for defeating trapdoor. It's not a POTENTIAL reward. In no instance whatsoever do you get rewarded with an alpha slot for defeating trapdoor. Neither trapdoor nor his mission rewards you with the alpha slot in any way, shape, or form.
INF is a guaranteed reward.
XP potentially is, if you haul along someone who's not 50.
A salvage drop is a POTENTIAL reward.
A recipe is a potential reward.
Do you understand the difference?
It's all moot anyway.
You CAN pull him. Nothing is preventing you from pulling him.
It doesn't separate him from his clones.
Is it removing player options that most mobs outrange us so we can't hover snipe them in safety?
Is it removing player options that there isn't lava sitting around EVERY EB for us to drag him into?
Not every encounter is exactly the same.
This one has clones with a regen buff that is not blocked by LoS and has either unlimited or very long range.
If that had been the case right from the beginning then you would have no argument that "options are being removed". Would you still be complaining about the encounter?
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
No. It is the reward for FINISHING THE ARC.
I don't get an end-of-mission reward for defeating the third minion in a normal mission. I don't get an end-of-arc reward for finishing the second mission in it. You do not get the alpha slot for defeating trapdoor. It's not a POTENTIAL reward. In no instance whatsoever do you get rewarded with an alpha slot for defeating trapdoor. Neither trapdoor nor his mission rewards you with the alpha slot in any way, shape, or form. INF is a guaranteed reward. XP potentially is, if you haul along someone who's not 50. A salvage drop is a POTENTIAL reward. A recipe is a potential reward. Do you understand the difference? |
You don't get the Alpha Slot directly for defeating Trapdoor, no.
But you also don't get the Alpha Slot WITHOUT defeating Trapdoor.
Therefore you must defeat Trapdoor to get the Alpha Slot.
Therefore the Alpha Slot is a reward for having done several things INCLUDING defeating Trapdoor.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
Dwarf form? Break frees? Seriously, you went into melee against someone with Energy melee attacks and you didn't use BFs or Dwarf?
This is why arguments like this devolve to L2P. Because you need to. |
OK, for my edification then, some questions I'd like answered.
1) What 4XP difficulty level was Twisted Toon using in Mender Ramiel's arc?
2) What was Twisted Toon's inspiration loadout at the start of the Trapdoor mission?
3) What was Twisted Toon's inspiration loadout at the start of the Trapdoor fight?
4) How long after the start of the Trapdoor fight were Twisted Toon's toggles dropped?
5) What was Twisted Toon fighting when his toggles were dropped?
6) How long after Twisted Toon's toggles were dropped did the killshot land?
7) Do you believe the only way to build a viable Warshade is to include Dwarf form?
8) What improvements to Twisted Toon's inspiration loadout do you recommend?
9) What improvements to Twisted Toon's combat techniques do you recommend?
Is it removing player options that most mobs outrange us so we can't hover snipe them in safety?
|
Is it removing player options that there isn't lava sitting around EVERY EB for us to drag him into? |
Stop setting up strawmen to pretend you have an argument.
Not every encounter is exactly the same. |
If that had been the case right from the beginning then you would have no argument that "options are being removed". Would you still be complaining about the encounter? |
Originally Posted by me
I DISAGREE VEHEMENTLY WITH REMOVING WHAT HAS BEEN A VALID OPTION THAT PLAYS TO SOME CHARACTERS STRENGTHS.
|
Originally Posted by me
As for changing the encounter? Yes. It's a puzzle. "What's making him regen, and what can I do to defeat that?" We had multiple options before. We have one LESS option now.
FEWER options for dealing with an encounter is a BAD THING. Simple enough for you? |
You don't get the Alpha Slot directly for defeating Trapdoor, no. |
But you also don't get the Alpha Slot WITHOUT defeating Trapdoor. |
Therefore you must defeat Trapdoor to get the Alpha Slot. |
Therefore the Alpha Slot is a reward for having done several things INCLUDING defeating Trapdoor. |
IF Trapdoor were (a) the only thing you had to do, or (b) were the final encounter? I could, *maybe,* see this as an argument. However, (a) he's not a "real" Incarnate, and (b) you have to fight touger opponents later (will anyone argue Honoree is easier than Trapdoor?) so removing an otherwise valid tactic sits *very* poorly with me.
I do?
OK, for my edification then, some questions I'd like answered. 1) What 4XP difficulty level was Twisted Toon using in Mender Ramiel's arc? 2) What was Twisted Toon's inspiration loadout at the start of the Trapdoor mission? 3) What was Twisted Toon's inspiration loadout at the start of the Trapdoor fight? 4) How long after the start of the Trapdoor fight were Twisted Toon's toggles dropped? 5) What was Twisted Toon fighting when his toggles were dropped? 6) How long after Twisted Toon's toggles were dropped did the killshot land? 7) Do you believe the only way to build a viable Warshade is to include Dwarf form? 8) What improvements to Twisted Toon's inspiration loadout do you recommend? 9) What improvements to Twisted Toon's combat techniques do you recommend? |
I don't have the answers to 1 through 4. 5 is Trapdoor, duh. I don't have the answer to 6.
7 is no, but I would expect the WS that did not take Dwarf to either die to mezzers a lot or carry extra BFs. HOWEVER, I do think that the only viable way to build a Melee toon includes taking whatever mez protection is available. By that token I would STRONGLY ENCOURAGE all WSs to take Dwarf and I MYSELF would never make a WS without Dwarf. So only viable way, no, only intelligent way? Unless you have incredible amounts of set bonus defense, pretty much.
8 has options. You could take a bunch of purples, some reds, a couple BFs. Or you could take a few oranges, a bunch of reds and a few BFs. Either would probably work. If one doesn't work, try the other.
9 is easy, use Dwarf or a BF when you get mezzed, or maybe even use a BF prior to getting mezzed so that you don't Have to use Dwarf form thereby keeping your damage up. Haven't done this mission yet on my WS, so I can't say for sure, but I'm going to assume you can summon fluffies from the clones. You also have a Hold and an Immobilize available to you. Again, I'm not certain, but they could conceivably be of use.
Above all though, with Dwarf OR BFs there is no reason you should be dying because of your toggles being down. I could see dying cause he just hit you too hard and your heals weren't effective enough, but dying to a mez? Just poor play.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
I do?
OK, for my edification then, some questions I'd like answered. 1) What 4XP difficulty level was Twisted Toon using in Mender Ramiel's arc? 2) What was Twisted Toon's inspiration loadout at the start of the Trapdoor mission? 3) What was Twisted Toon's inspiration loadout at the start of the Trapdoor fight? 4) How long after the start of the Trapdoor fight were Twisted Toon's toggles dropped? 5) What was Twisted Toon fighting when his toggles were dropped? 6) How long after Twisted Toon's toggles were dropped did the killshot land? 7) Do you believe the only way to build a viable Warshade is to include Dwarf form? 8) What improvements to Twisted Toon's inspiration loadout do you recommend? 9) What improvements to Twisted Toon's combat techniques do you recommend? |
Most? You sure about that? Since I can do so without a big issue for most mobs. Might want to check your facts before making an argument.
Is the option there in the first place? No? Stop setting up strawmen to pretend you have an argument. Gee, ya think? Do you pay attention to what you read? Here, let me quote myself from a prior post: Now, can you answer your own question, or do I need to spell that out for you as well? |
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
However, the Alpha Slot is not, as you have been arguing, a - let me choose the wording carefully here - a reward upon trapdoor's defeat. Which is what it appears you've been arguing.
|
You DON'T have to fight Honoree or Holtz. That mission can be auto completed.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
Are you seriously this dim?
If the devs thought it was a valid option they would not have removed it. That's a huge freakin "duh".
Just like if the devs thought pulling Recluse away from his towers was a valid option they would have left it in.
Just like if they thought killing the towers one at a time before defeating Recluse was NOT a valid option they would have removed it.
In MOST cases we can guess what the devs think is a valid option. There are not many bugs, design flaws, etc that help the players greatly that get left in. Not many at all.
I don't have to be a dev to guess what the devs think is invalid. I can infer based on their behavior.
EDIT, to respond to your edit: Yeah, they can change their mind about what they think is valid. That in no way changes anything.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
If the devs thought it was a valid option they would not have removed it. That's a huge freakin "duh". Just like if the devs thought pulling Recluse away from his towers was a valid option they would have left it in. Just like if they thought killing the towers one at a time before defeating Recluse was NOT a valid option they would have removed it. In MOST cases we can guess what the devs think is a valid option. There are not many bugs, design flaws, etc that help the players greatly that get left in. Not many at all. I don't have to be a dev to guess what the devs think is invalid. I can infer based on their behavior. EDIT, to respond to your edit: Yeah, they can change their mind about what they think is valid. That in no way changes anything. |
On the other, you admit that they change their minds - yet somehow think that "doesnt' change anything."
Clue for you: This is called "Player Feedback." Guess what may just push them to change back?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dY3qz2FHvX4
@Blaze Moon, Blaze Moon the 2nd
This is where something more interesting than my global and this sentence would be.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
On the other, you admit that they change their minds - yet somehow think that "doesnt' change anything."
Clue for you: This is called "Player Feedback." Guess what may just push them to change back? |
Yep, and that's all fine. However, as yet, I don't believe anyone in this thread has constructed an argument that suggests the encounter is truly too difficult for any particular powerset combo. Some particular power choices might make it harder or easier, but the devs really cannot be expected to balance every encounter for all possible gimped or nongimped builds.
If the devs determine that it IS too hard they can make it easier WITHOUT allowing people to circumvent the primary mechanic of the fight.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
To Wavicle and Memphis_Bill:
I'm grinning at you guys. Regardless of what either of you think, know or believe the change is in place at the judgement of the devs.
THAT'S case closed. It's done. This thread is effectively moot, as the change has been made and the likelihood of it being reversed is very slim.
Can I get a modlock here?
Edit: Also, Wavicle, you need a lesson in not contradicting yourself.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
![](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v485/HellkatPredator/2012%20Livestreams/ChompAeon.gif)
I do?
OK, for my edification then, some questions I'd like answered. 1) What 4XP difficulty level was Twisted Toon using in Mender Ramiel's arc? 2) What was Twisted Toon's inspiration loadout at the start of the Trapdoor mission? 3) What was Twisted Toon's inspiration loadout at the start of the Trapdoor fight? 4) How long after the start of the Trapdoor fight were Twisted Toon's toggles dropped? 5) What was Twisted Toon fighting when his toggles were dropped? 6) How long after Twisted Toon's toggles were dropped did the killshot land? 7) Do you believe the only way to build a viable Warshade is to include Dwarf form? 8) What improvements to Twisted Toon's inspiration loadout do you recommend? 9) What improvements to Twisted Toon's combat techniques do you recommend? |
I don't have the answers to 1 through 4. 5 is Trapdoor, duh. I don't have the answer to 6.
7 is no, but I would expect the WS that did not take Dwarf to either die to mezzers a lot or carry extra BFs. HOWEVER, I do think that the only viable way to build a Melee toon includes taking whatever mez protection is available. By that token I would STRONGLY ENCOURAGE all WSs to take Dwarf and I MYSELF would never make a WS without Dwarf. So only viable way, no, only intelligent way? Unless you have incredible amounts of set bonus defense, pretty much. 8 has options. You could take a bunch of purples, some reds, a couple BFs. Or you could take a few oranges, a bunch of reds and a few BFs. Either would probably work. If one doesn't work, try the other. 9 is easy, use Dwarf or a BF when you get mezzed, or maybe even use a BF prior to getting mezzed so that you don't Have to use Dwarf form thereby keeping your damage up. Haven't done this mission yet on my WS, so I can't say for sure, but I'm going to assume you can summon fluffies from the clones. You also have a Hold and an Immobilize available to you. Again, I'm not certain, but they could conceivably be of use. Above all though, with Dwarf OR BFs there is no reason you should be dying because of your toggles being down. I could see dying cause he just hit you too hard and your heals weren't effective enough, but dying to a mez? Just poor play. |
If you didn't watch the fight you can't intelligently answer 9.
Here's what we know about Twisted Toon's Warshade fight:
Trapdoor was nearly dead (Stygian Return doesn't do much damage).
Twisted Toon's toggles dropped.
Twisted Toon's character was killed.
From that meager amount of information you presumed to tell someone who wasn't even in the fight to L2P.
Goodbye.
The fact that people have a hard time with him at all disturbs me.
I killed him easily (as in..no insps) on my unslotted fire/kin. On my IO'd out fire/em, I didnt even kill the adds because I killed him so easily/quickly. Hell even my grav/ta didnt have trouble with it.
I didn't even know this was a problem for people.
@TheBro
solo pvp?
Cooler than every single owl EVER.
If you don't know the answers to 2 and 3 you can't intelligently answer 8.
If you didn't watch the fight you can't intelligently answer 9. Here's what we know about Twisted Toon's Warshade fight: Trapdoor was nearly dead (Stygian Return doesn't do much damage). Twisted Toon's toggles dropped. Twisted Toon's character was killed. From that meager amount of information you presumed to tell someone who wasn't even in the fight to L2P. Goodbye. |
I seriously don't understand people complaining they are having a hard time with something and then getting angry or hurt when people suggested things they could be doing differently.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
The fact that people have a hard time with him at all disturbs me.
I killed him easily (as in..no insps) on my unslotted fire/kin. On my IO'd out fire/em, I didnt even kill the adds because I killed him so easily/quickly. Hell even my grav/ta didnt have trouble with it. I didn't even know this was a problem for people. |
Fire/EM - Blaster or Tank?
Grav/TA - See Fire/Kin. It's a sleepwalk on anything with holds.
If you don't know the answers to 2 and 3 you can't intelligently answer 8.
If you didn't watch the fight you can't intelligently answer 9. Here's what we know about Twisted Toon's Warshade fight: Trapdoor was nearly dead (Stygian Return doesn't do much damage). Twisted Toon's toggles dropped. Twisted Toon's character was killed. From that meager amount of information you presumed to tell someone who wasn't even in the fight to L2P. Goodbye. |
If you want REAL answers to what you could do different then YOU TELL ME what you did at first instead of expecting me to guess.
But yea, I'll repeat. Based ONLY on the information you provide HERE.
Trapdoor was nearly dead (Stygian Return doesn't do much damage).
Twisted Toon's toggles dropped.
Twisted Toon's character was killed.
You died because you got mezzed in a fight where you only needed to hit him ONE MORE TIME.
You did something wrong. With no more information I can assuredly say you could have hit Dwarf. If you didn't TAKE Dwarf then that's something you did wrong. Your AT gets a power to deal with mezzes. If you don't take it then you should expect to have problems with mezzes.
With more information I could be more specific, but you'd apparently rather play guessing games than actually say what inspirs you brought, what your build is, or what your strategy was.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
L2P yourself.
If he is fighting a mezzing boss and didn't take dwarf and can't hold the boss and didn't use BFs then he needs to L2P. It's as simple as that.
Next your going to tell me that taking Unyielding is merely an option for an Invuln scrapper and that an encounter that can't be defeated by an Invuln scrapper who lacks UY is too hard or that the player didn't do anything wrong.
Yea, taking Dwarf is an option, but if you don't exercise that option then DON'T COMPLAIN WHEN YOU DIE DUE TO GETTING HELD.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.