Accuracy WAS Nerfed
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2010-11-26 24:04 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
You're confusing accuracy and ToHit.
Player characters have a base ToHit of 75% which AccMod modifies. 75% * 1.0 = 75% as it has always been. The formula without debuffs or level differences taken into account is actually:
Hit_Chance = Base_ToHit * AccMod
For most powers this is Base_ToHit * (1 + Acc Enhancement), which again translates to 0.75 * (1 + Acc Enhancement).
No stealth nerfs, you just understand the system wrong.
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
Mids shows the calculated chance for the power to hit based on attacking an even level foe. For an attack with base 1.0 accuracy, that value is 1.0 * 0.75 = 0.75, or 75%.
Throw a ton of accuracy slotting into the power, and Mids will eventually tell you the accuracy of the power is 195% or something. Add tactics and turn the power on, and the value will change also.
The base tohit chance itself is configurable if you want the numbers to reflect a different base tohit, like for example if you want to see the numbers projected for attacking +2s (base tohit: 56%): go to Options -> Configuration, and choose the Exemping & Base Values tab. The Base tohit value is 75% by default: change it and see how it affects displayed base tohit in power descriptions.
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Wrong.
Base Accuracy of most attacks is 1. This has nothing to do with the base To Hit chance.
We have a 75% chance to hit critters. They have a 50% chance to hit us.
Accuracy multiples against the total of chance to hit + tohit buffs - defense - tohit debuffs, etc, etc.
Knockout Blow has a base accuracy of 1.2. Multiplied by the base 75% chance to hit it becomes 90% chance to hit.
Before stating something has been nerfed, it would be best to become knowledgeable of the topic.
Go read Arcanaville's Guide to Defense. It explains everything.
Be well, people of CoH.
There will be tons of flames so let me just get in ahead and douse some of them.
The 75% is the base accuracy of player vs. equal minion powers. The 1.0 (or whatever) is multiplied by that. So Mids is counting the 75% while the wiki has it in a chart at the bottom.
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack...cs#Data_Tables
Note this is why the common claim that softcapped defense works against 95% of attacks is not true, unless you only battle even level minions.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
If a power has 1.0 inherent accuracy on one date and .75 at a later date. That's not a misunderstanding of accuracy and tohit, it's a nerf.
Quote:
Wrong. Reread the posts in this thread.
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Originally Posted by Bad_Dog
If a power has 1.0 inherent accuracy on one date and .75 at a later date. That's not a misunderstanding of accuracy and tohit, it's a nerf.
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Be well, people of CoH.
Wrong again. Powers still have a base ACCURACY of 1.0. Player base TOHIT has been 75% for as long as I can remember.
Final hit chance is not the power's accuracy, it's base ToHit multiplied by the power's accuracy.
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
Quote:
Look in Mids Knockout Blow has an accuracy of 90% not 120%. It USED to be 120%.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Wrong.
Base Accuracy of most attacks is 1. This has nothing to do with the base To Hit chance. We have a 75% chance to hit critters. They have a 50% chance to hit us. Accuracy multiples against the total of chance to hit + tohit buffs - defense - tohit debuffs, etc, etc. Knockout Blow has a base accuracy of 1.2. Multiplied by the base 75% chance to hit it becomes 90% chance to hit. Before stating something has been nerfed, it would be best to become knowledgeable of the topic. Go read Arcanaville's Guide to Defense. It explains everything. |
Quote:
...did you actually read any of the other posts in this thread?
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Originally Posted by Bad_Dog
If a power has 1.0 inherent accuracy on one date and .75 at a later date. That's not a misunderstanding of accuracy and tohit, it's a nerf.
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Quote:
Please provide the relevant data to support this claim.
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Originally Posted by Bad_Dog
Look in Mids Knockout Blow has an accuracy of 90% not 120%. It USED to be 120%.
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- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
Quote:
That would be a nerf if it happened. However it has not. The values Mids shows are not the Accuracy or ToHit of individual powers but instead the final change to hit. With no modifiers whatsoever an attack with a base accuracy of 1.0 has a 75% chance to hit against an even level enemy. This is because the player's base chance to hit an even level enemy is 75% so you get 1.0 * 75% = 75%.
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Originally Posted by Bad_Dog
If a power has 1.0 inherent accuracy on one date and .75 at a later date. That's not a misunderstanding of accuracy and tohit, it's a nerf.
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I'd summon Arcanaville to own Bad_Dog with her vast knowledge of the game mechanics, but thank $deity we already have her here.
(Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Arcanaville is a she)
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
Quote:
My base chance to hit doesn't change from power to power. Its always the same. Use mids and look it up, the accuracy is reduced.|
Originally Posted by DSorrow
Wrong again. Powers still have a base ACCURACY of 1.0. Player base TOHIT has been 75% for as long as I can remember.
Final hit chance is not the power's accuracy, it's base ToHit multiplied by the power's accuracy. |
MIDS
Jab - 75%
Hand Clap - 60%
Knockout Blow - 90%
This is not my chance to hit, its the inherent accuracy of the power
Quote:
Turnoff Rage before you look at the accuracy for powers.
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Originally Posted by Bad_Dog
Look in Mids Knockout Blow has an accuracy of 90% not 120%. It USED to be 120%.
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[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
Read the rest of the wiki page.
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack...cs#Data_Tables
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
Quote:
Also, I should respond to this specifically. Most ways to do this are detectable by the people who monitor the numbers in the game. Almost no ways of doing this would be undetectable by me personally. And the devs have no motive to do this, much less keep it a secret. If it was to slow down the amount of kills we generate by a small amount, they wouldn't have increased the amount of rewards we earn per kill the last time they reviewed the leveling curve. If it was to make specific things tougher for us to kill, they would just do what they always do: give those things +Defense. And if it was just to annoy people, they have all sorts of ways to do that besides messing with decimal points on intrinsic accuracy.|
Originally Posted by Bad_Dog
This time i used a different approach. I asked the question, "If I were going to nerf accuracy and wanted it to be as unnoticeable as possible, how would i do it?
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Edit: triple checked Super Strength for both Brutes and Tankers. All attacks have intrinsic 1.0 accuracy except Hand Clap which has 0.8 (standard for AoE mez powers) and Knockout Blow which has 1.2. This also agrees with Mids, which has the correct data when you factor out the 0.75 base tohit that is set by default in options.
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In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Not this again ?????!!!!!!
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
Quote:
The numbers you see in Mid's are your final chance to hit. Divide that number by 75% and you get what the "inherent accuracy modifier" of the power you're looking at is.|
Originally Posted by Bad_Dog
My base chance to hit doesn't change from power to power. Its always the same. Use mids and look it up, the accuracy is reduced.
MIDS Jab - 75% Hand Clap - 60% Knockout Blow - 90% This is not my chance to hit, its the inherent accuracy of the power |
Jab: 75% / 75% = 1.0
Hand Clap: 60% / 75% = 0.8 (typical for AoE mez)
KOBlow: 90% / 75% = 1.2
See?
I really wish people would get more knowledgeable about stuff before they start whining about it.
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
Quote:
Great if it worked that way but it does not.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
That would be a nerf if it happened. However it has not. The values Mids shows are not the Accuracy or ToHit of individual powers but instead the final change to hit. With no modifiers whatsoever an attack with a base accuracy of 1.0 has a 75% chance to hit against an even level enemy. This is because the player's base chance to hit an even level enemy is 75% so you get 1.0 * 75% = 75%.
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each power has an inherent accuracy, which you can modify with enhancements, bonuses, etc. I MAY HAVE 75% but my power has its own and its part of the formula.
SMIPLIFIED
BEFORE you get 1.0 * 75% = 75%.
NOW .75 * .75 = .56%
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack...cs#Data_Tables
HitChance = Clamp( AccMods × Clamp( BaseHitChance + ToHitMods – DefMods ) )
It explicitly says that BaseHitChance is 75% at equal level.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
Quote:
Wrong.|
Originally Posted by Bad_Dog
Great if it worked that way but it does not.
each power has an inherent accuracy, which you can modify with enhancements, bonuses, etc. I MAY HAVE 75% but my power has its own and its part of the formula. SMIPLIFIED BEFORE you get 1.0 * 75% = 75%. NOW .75 * .75 = .56% |
Before you got 75% * 1.0 which you thought was 100% * 1.0.
Now you get 75% * 1.0 which you realize is 75% * 1.0 and think it's broken.
Please learn stuff first and tell us how to fix it after that.
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
Quote:
You really need to read what others have posted, and what you just posted will explain it all.|
Originally Posted by Bad_Dog
My base chance to hit doesn't change from power to power. Its always the same. Use mids and look it up, the accuracy is reduced.
MIDS Jab - 75% Hand Clap - 60% Knockout Blow - 90% This is not my chance to hit, its the inherent accuracy of the power |
Base accuracy for most attacks is 1. Jab is like most attacks, so it has 1x75% base ToHit.
Base accuracy for KO BLow is 1.2, so it has 1.2x75% chance ToHit, or 90% as is listed in Mids.
Hand Clap has an inherent accuracy penalty, which is 0.8, and guess what 0.8x75% is? That's right, it's 60%.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bad_Dog
Great if it worked that way but it does not.
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Bad dog is bad. At math.
Quote:
Do you think he is able to read and comprehend stuff when he's raging? I know from experience things don't get any better when people realize they're wrong on the internets.|
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
You really need to read what others have posted, and what you just posted will explain it all.
Base accuracy for most attacks is 1. Jab is like most attacks, so it has 1x75% base ToHit. Base accuracy for KO BLow is 1.2, so it has 1.2x75% chance ToHit, or 90% as is listed in Mids. Hand Clap has an inherent accuracy penalty, which is 0.8, and guess what 0.8x75% is? That's right, it's 60%. |
+1, posting in an epic thread
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
First the quick background:
I posted a thread on the forums a while back about the noticeable difference in accuracy from one week to the next.... and if I could find that thread I'd link to it, but it doesn't seem to exist anymore.
It the discussion the consensus was that accuracy had not been nerfed and the reasoning was that if used the combat window you would see your actual chance to hit and your actual "roll". It was the math behind determining whether the hit landed or not. A friend of mine and I did extensive testing at the time, and the results seemed to generally support the conclusion that accuracy hadn't been tampered with it.
So a few days ago, after a frustrating night of fanning enemies with Shadow Maul with a new alt, I went on a quest to pursue the question again. This time i used a different approach. I asked the question, "If I were going to nerf accuracy and wanted it to be as unnoticeable as possible, how would i do it? That question led me right to the answer and how the accuracy nerf was snuck in.
To make sure I had a sold understanding how this all works I found this at ParagonWiki.com:
Calculating Accuracy for Players
If the attacker is a player, he gets Accuracy multipliers from two places. Multiply them together to get the final Accuracy multiplier for the attack.
First, every power has an inherent Accuracy multiplier built into it. This value is 1.0 for most powers, since most powers are intended to hit a normal percentage of the time. Powers that the devs intend to hit more or less often than normal have values above or below 1.0, respectively. Inherent Accuracy usually stays within the range of 1.2 to 0.8 .
Second, a player can get an Accuracy multiplier from Enhancements. Accuracy Enhancements (but not ToHit Buff!) in the power itself are the primary source for this kind of Accuracy. Invention Origin Enhancements Sets that give global Accuracy bonuses can also add small amounts to every power. This multiplier starts at 1.0, and Enhancements can only improve it.
So for players, AccMods is calculated using:
AccMods = the power's inherent Accuracy × (1.0 + the power's Accuracy Enhancements + all global Set Accuracy bonuses)
Assuming the author of that page is correct, I went to Mids and saw that that statement was wrong. The inherent accuracy of attacks in mids are 75%, not 100%. That's when I had the answer. Only a few minutes in Mids confirms that EVERY single attack power requiring an accuracy check was reduced in accuracy.
Assuming the author was correct when he wrote it and if it is worse now, then a nerf was undocumented and slipped in with an issue or patch. But, is this theory or fact? So, Mids cannot be wrong with every single attack, so if there is an error its with the Wiki page. Then question was then, how do I know that this author was correct with the figure of 100% or "1.0 for most powers"? So it took research between a friend from my sg and I but we found accuracy numbers for attack powers from before the nerf. And indeed the Wiki page and it's author was correct. The default accuracy for almost all powers was 100% (or 1.0).
The default inherent accuracy of powers were 100% when the Wiki page was written. The default inherent accuracy for powers is now 75%. It proves that attacks powers requiring accuracy checks got a nerf. It also explain why we can't see it in the combat window watching the attack math take place. Why? Because the ToHit chance we see is the result of a formula: HitChance = Clamp( AccMods × Clamp( BaseHitChance + ToHitMods DefMods ) ) and that iinherent accuracy number is lost in it, we only see the result.
Here is a sample powerset. I used the researched actual numbers from prior to the nerf and actual numbers from today.
Super Strength
Jab - before 100%, now 75%
Punch - before 100%, now 75%
Haymaker - before 100%, now 75%
Hand Clap - before 80%, now 60%
Knockout Blow - before 120%, now 90%
Taunt - before 100%, now 75%
Hurl - before 100%, now 75%
Foot Stomp - before 100%, now 75%
I went through as many of these as possible and it was every single power requiring accuracy checks in all player primary and secondary powersets. it was every attack requiring accuracy checks in all power pool and epic pool powers. And every nerf was exactly a 25% reduction in accuracy.
I've been here since CoH beta, and overall I had never found a game so enjoyable to play as this one. That being said, its things like this that really burns me. It aggravates me to the point of considering moving to that other superhero game coming soon. This "new and improved" inherent accuracy is B.S.