Fourspeed said:
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I was actually checking crafted prices. There can be a significant variation in price between the two. I have bought things for 302 million, crafted, listed for 450 million and acheived 600 million. Some people with THAT much money have, well, even more. |
It simply doesn't matter - for the 5 or 6 items in-game that actually run over 1B, the recipes and crafted IO's are very probably near or at the same price. |
Blue Centurion said:
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| Okay, you guys have stopped swearing and are now tempting me into going off topic asking about things like 600 mil a day marketing. |
As far as your claims that you farm, you do all these things and yet you are not wealthy: You HAVE to be doing it wrong in some way.
EDITED:
OK, here's what you say you do, playwise:
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| Again, I have run level 50 content. quite a bit. Probably 1/4 to 1/3 of my 42 months. That is prob pretty average. I alt a lot, maybe some people 50 more. I stay with one 50 when running SGs, farming, badging, etc. [...] But seriously, to get this stuff the Devs want me to play 30 years? to pimp one toon? Hmmm, that math just seems wrong. |
You're running new characters up- unless you're doing nothing but other people's story arcs and newspapers, you're getting merits. Merits Are Money. I was paying 20 million inf per random roll for a while [to characters under level 41] and I didn't break even but I came pretty close- and I think level 50 rares are still more expensive than any lower level.
I think one AM gets you 5 rares which sell for an average of maybe 60 million inf these days. (I haven't recalibrated after the temporary ToT price crash, so that's not a rock solid number.) It is very easy, on a new alt, to get 200 Reward Merits on your way to about level 35. Spend 80 million inf to get 4 AM's, sell the 20 rares for about 240 million, and you've made 160 million JUST FROM MERITS on your way to level 35. If I'm buying, which I'm not always doing, you've made 320 million guaranteed and I've got 20 highly random sub-35 recipes.
Go through your alts. Look for reward merits. I bet you've got a billion inf sitting around that you didn't even know about.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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I don't think I agree. I think you ought to be able to get Seriously Awesome, but that's about it. And I think that even that might reasonably require, not just that you've played for three and a half years, but that you've played with an eye on what it takes to get that stuff.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
there have been some interesting posts made about long term rewards, rarity, etc. Now we are getting to it. I feel, that after nearly 42 months in city, if I brought all my cash to one toon (which I did) I should be able to get just about anything the game has crammed onto it. I definitely understand that feeling is not echoed by this crowd.
|
In another MMO I played, I spent immense amounts of time levelling crafting. Immense. As a result, after four years of play, I had an amazing selection of, say, low-level cooking recipes that you got from special quests, rare patterns for level 30 robes, and things like this.
I didn't have a single piece of raid gear. Not one. Not until I started raiding in the last couple of months I spent in that game.
It is not enough that you spend time Doing Something. If you want to be purpled out, you have to be spending time specifically on things which lead to purples.
And even then, I think it's fine if there's still a few things left that you could get. It is fine if there are only two or three players who have Absolutely Maxed Out. It's even fine if no one's done it, but some people have done fairly well. If you have a bunch of Best Possible Stuff, and most players who have really worked on it have 70-80% of that, but no one has 100% of it, that's fine. They all still have stuff to work for, but they're amazingly powerful.
Basically, I think you've set the standard of what should be attainable too high. In another MMO, a friend of mine once saw a player who had the Best Weapon In The Game. Once. In five years. That's just one of dozens of Best X, and my friend saw one. I don't think I ever saw one. Maybe once. But we were both active raiders, who had characters who were well kitted out. We hung out with people who were farming the hardest raid content in the game, and most of them were getting new upgrades every couple of weeks, because they did not yet have the best stuff available.
I don't think that's a problem. I think that's working as designed. I think CoH is about where it's intended to be; people who seriously want to purple-out a character can, but it takes a while. They have to do it by bits and pieces, using the pieces they've already got as a basis for getting more. But even early in that process, they're still WAY better off than people who haven't started it.
What i hear you saying is, to make money in this game, stop playing the game, and go to the market.
what i am saying is this. Shouldnt people that play the game get the most rewards for time in game? Seriously. I am not kidding, I actually believe this. I am not trolling.
it is my belief that running a toon in the game should earn you better stuff than someone standing around the market. Especially if you do it consistently for years. I understand that is not how it works. I am not trolling. I am saying I cannot believe game designers made it so that the market is better than the game. It seems like the dumbest marketing ploy in the world.
Hey! Come play our game. you can stand around a market and really make a ton of imaginary cash. It will be so much cooler than going on missions and running a character. We know your time is limited, so just stand right there and flip recipes. Don't let a second go to waste off adventuring.
Marketting doesn't take long. I can login/out a toon in 3 minutes after crafting her purchases and relisting.
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Look at my most recent post. You can make money in this game BY PLAYING THE GAME. | What i hear you saying is, to make money in this game, stop playing the game, and go to the market. |
I mean, extraordinary results may require extraordinary actions, but you can do pretty well by running ITFs, STFs [some of those synth-hamis go for 200M each], ouro arcs, LGTFs, tip missions... what do you want to do? We will tell you how to get rich spending MOST of your time doing it. [I don't know anything about farming, I'll admit.]
ETA: Yeah, I'll admit it. I spend as much as fifteen minutes per session marketing, sometimes twice a day. How much time did you spend farming? Did it get you 100 million inf per hour?
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
You do both. Marketing suppliments other forms of inf making, and with solid marketing, you can make more money then anything else. So.. if you add anything to it, (most marketing is actually best done AWAY from said markets, fill up your slots, and go kill stuff) then you make EVEN more money! Imagine that, a AFK way to make billions of inf, with very little work invested.
Who'd a thunk that, being able to make extra money, while not really doing anything at all..
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Ah heres the rub|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
What i hear you saying is, to make money in this game, stop playing the game, and go to the market.
what i am saying is this. Shouldnt people that play the game get the most rewards for time in game? Seriously. I am not kidding, I actually believe this. I am not trolling. it is my belief that running a toon in the game should earn you better stuff than someone standing around the market. Especially if you do it consistently for years. I understand that is not how it works. I am not trolling. I am saying I cannot believe game designers made it so that the market is better than the game. It seems like the dumbest marketing ploy in the world. Hey! Come play our game. you can stand around a market and really make a ton of imaginary cash. It will be so much cooler than going on missions and running a character. We know your time is limited, so just stand right there and flip. Don't let a second go to waste off adventuring. |
Okay heres the unvarnished truth....the time sink to initially start in the market is largish....once youve found your niches then its ridiculously easy. I play two hours a night....I spend 10-15 mins (Ive timed it before)in the market or crafting...I dont think thats a significant chunk. I make more than a billion a week because thats the rate Im burning for the 88s. I can afford super purpled builds in a couple of weeks. I can do this because I read a guide a long time ago (thank you peterpeter) and then extrapolated from there. Im not a genius, I have no more resources than you do.
Your complaints are invalid.
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The problem I have with what you've been posting, Blue, is this:|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
What i hear you saying is, to make money in this game, stop playing the game, and go to the market.
what i am saying is this. Shouldnt people that play the game get the most rewards for time in game? Seriously. I am not kidding, I actually believe this. I am not trolling. it is my belief that running a toon in the game should earn you better stuff than someone standing around the market. Especially if you do it consistently for years. I understand that is not how it works. I am not trolling. I am saying I cannot believe game designers made it so that the market is better than the game. It seems like the dumbest marketing ploy in the world. Hey! Come play our game. you can stand around a market and really make a ton of imaginary cash. It will be so much cooler than going on missions and running a character. We know your time is limited, so just stand right there and flip recipes. Don't let a second go to waste off adventuring. |
(1) You already have a very, very expensive toon - I looked at the build you proposed in the Brute forums and it was OMGWTFBBQ expensive. Four purple sets! I have three toons that are that purpled out - and I've been playing for six years. Very few players have builds like that. Your toon is already in the top .01% in terms of enhancement investment. (Slaps Blue on the back, good job!)
(2) There are very, very few enhancements in the game that are out of reach of the common player - three PvP IOs (+Res, +Def and Panacea). Those are very, very expensive because they are very, VERY rare. But they're only three IOs, dude!
(3) I understand that you're peeved about not being able to easily get access to those - that's by design - the devs want at least something that's rare - they need a time sink to keep you occupied. So your real issue isn't with the market - its with game design around resource scarcity - I'm not personally going to get into it other than to say its nothing new in the MMO world.
(4) You're venting in the wrong section, to the wrong audience, bud.
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Marketing is the fast way, and those that frequent this forum vastly prefer it.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
What i hear you saying is, to make money in this game, stop playing the game, and go to the market.
what i am saying is this. Shouldnt people that play the game get the most rewards for time in game? Seriously. I am not kidding, I actually believe this. I am not trolling. it is my belief that running a toon in the game should earn you better stuff than someone standing around the market. Especially if you do it consistently for years. I understand that is not how it works. I am not trolling. I am saying I cannot believe game designers made it so that the market is better than the game. It seems like the dumbest marketing ploy in the world. Hey! Come play our game. you can stand around a market and really make a ton of imaginary cash. It will be so much cooler than going on missions and running a character. We know your time is limited, so just stand right there and flip recipes. Don't let a second go to waste off adventuring. |
That said, it has been brought up what other methods there are, correct? You can do tips to get purple merits to buy the recipe in question. You can PvP. You can play level 50 stuff to get purples, selling them to save for the PvP recipe.
...or you can play the market.
I'm working toward my PvP recipe, but that's just because I find the whole market system to be punishingly unfun. It's faster, yes, but I'd rather be out doing other things, and not spend my time doing something I don't enjoy much. I'll craft and sell my good stuff that I don't need, but I won't buy and sell strictly for profit. So, I'll take the longer time to do SF's (which I love) for merits, earn money, then buy purple merits as I do lots of tips.
It's the process the game has given, and I can have fun to boot. It won't cost me any billion. You can do it too!
The game, like all MMOs, is design to be ongoing/continuous/infinite/NO END GAME.. If the devs designed a game that had all the hard stuff handed to you on a plate this game would have run out of players before its 1st birthday.
and this is what you want?
http://www.scene-and-heard.com/cov/covsig.jpg
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Blue... dont be so Blue... I have been playing this game since July 2004 and I only have one toon (my main TF runner) that has one power... thats one Power with a purple set. |
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Yeah. I do not think the vast majority of the posters are feeling me. i am a 42 month Vet. I did not arrive in the cities yesterday. I understand what you are saying about diminishing returns. I am saying, there is no feasible way for anyone to get one toon fully tricked out with purples and PvP enhancers unless they 1) farm all day every day for a year. (farm, not play) 2) buy in game cash from china illegally.
So, the Devs have set up this situation. the Devs need to fix it. Most people want to spend 3-6 months on one toon, and have something way cool to show for it. if the Devs do not get that then they need to have a serious conference style think tank day. |
Now I have Billions upon Billions of stuff and cash all over my toons but I find for me (the key word here being "For Me") regular IO sets work fine for my toon and in fact I just dusted off the 3rd toon I ever made (a lvl 50 Kat/Inv Scrapper) that only has lvl 50++ SO's and he kicked a$$ just like he was doing back in 2004.
There is a big difference between want and need... you may want all the shinny stuff but you sure dont need them
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It's a tricky question. In theory the answer is yes, the best way for getting rewards should be gotten from playing the game the way the person playing wants to (i.e. what gives them the most fun). However there is a problem with this which is that the quantity of rewards an individual can earn playing the game is so highly variable. Some people love playing their 50s and/or love farming while others prefer to play their lower level characters or simply RP with their friends. Now obviously the different play-styles earn different levels of rewards at different rates and the market helps to close the gap.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
what i am saying is this. Shouldnt people that play the game get the most rewards for time in game? Seriously. I am not kidding, I actually believe this. I am not trolling.
|
The advantage of marketeering as a means of earning inf is that it is compatible with all varieties of play style. You can make inf simply by spending a few minutes each play session setting buy and sell orders (although obviously the more time invested the better the return) and then go on to do whatever you find enjoyable.
Suppose the devs decided to completely eliminate marketeer as a cash source. Recipes and salvage no longer drop from enemies (but inf drops are increased a bit to compensate), merits and a-merits now award a large chunk of cash (say 1million for a reward merit, 75million for an a-merit) and WWs is replaced by a store where you can buy and sell IOs at a fixed price set by the devs which is near the current market prices (we assume that the devs are happy with the current supply/demand and therefore prices). What would this mean for people? Basically the only way to get IOs at this point would be to farm or at least spend a lot of time playing level 50s. People who want to do other activities such as leveling alts or RP'ing would have their income cut. Marketeering provides all players with a similar means of making inf no matter what their play style.
Some people enjoy farming and I thank them, they generate the recipes I need for my characters. When marketeering I am providing a service to other people which they are apparently willing to pay for. Now as to what services marketeers provide, here are the main ones:
1. Slot consolidation. Market slots are a limited resource in the game, a flipper buys up small numbers of items from multiple players and relists them in stacks thereby decreasing the number of market slots in use across all players while maintaining the supply for sale on the market.
2. Guaranteed buys and guaranteed sales. Anyone who uses the market knows that the price of an item depends on how long you're willing to wait. Leaving a buy/sell order up overnight (or over a weekend) gets you a better price than what you would get if you buy/sell it now. However not everyone wants to wait, some people prefer to get their inf immediately or their item right now. A marketeer keeps buy orders in place and stock on the market so the impatient seller gets a better "instant sell" price and the impatient buyer can find stock to buy.
3. Convenience. Crafting IOs is very fiddly, you have to buy the recipe, find the correct salvage and then go and craft it. For some players this is annoying enough that it's worth it to pay someone else to do it and a marketeer is sometimes willing to oblige... if the price is right. The reason that crafted IOs sell for more than the recipes is that enough people find crafting IOs a hassle to support an industry in doing it for them.
All of these arguments always amount to:
"50% to 75% of the player base should be able afford a top 1% build."
Which is illogical on the fact of it. But let's just imagine that even the top 1% of enhancements were available to anyone easily. Once you've hit 50 and IO'd out your character to the gills (which you didn't even have to work hard for), what's left? You have nothing more to strive for, and you are not superior to anyone else in the game, because they all have the best builds possible. There is no superior build, because everyone can get one easily. There is no market, because you can't make money selling anything. Nothing is rare, and only the "used to be rare" stuff is even desired.
How many people would quit the game at that point? A game which can be conquered easily is not going to hold the interest of a lot of players.
my lil RWZ Challenge vid
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Originally Posted by Rad_Avenger
The problem I have with what you've been posting, Blue, is this:
(1) You already have a very, very expensive toon - I looked at the build you proposed in the Brute forums and it was OMGWTFBBQ expensive. Four purple sets! I have three toons that are that purpled out - and I've been playing for six years. Very few players have builds like that. Your toon is already in the top .01% in terms of enhancement investment. (Slaps Blue on the back, good job!) (2) There are very, very few enhancements in the game that are out of reach of the common player - three PvP IOs (+Res, +Def and Panacea). Those are very, very expensive because they are very, VERY rare. But they're only three IOs, dude! (3) I understand that you're peeved about not being able to easily get access to those - that's by design - the devs want at least something that's rare - they need a time sink to keep you occupied. So your real issue isn't with the market - its with game design around resource scarcity - I'm not personally going to get into it other than to say its nothing new in the MMO world. (4) You're venting in the wrong section, to the wrong audience, bud. |
1)er, 5 purp sets (hard as heck to cram onto a brute too!) But i did grab all my treasure from all my toons to make it.
2) still, i came in with the 2 1/2 Bill I farmed since i made the guy and was literally blown away by the prices required. i seriously thought I would at least get 2 more sets crammed onto the monster. more like 1 enhancer
3) easy? I have been grinding a fire farm until i want to throw up fire? easy? go pound sand.
4) you are prob right, but I am learning stuff here. My next target is the Devs. thanks for polishing the arguments.
r/e earning hows and whys:
Since Project 88 started up I've been "working" a little bit at making inf so I'll have something to set fire to every Monday. I'm working a couple of mid range to high end niches, but a good portion of my earnings (which I'm not tracking too closely, but I've been torching a billion a week without noticing an appreciable drop the level of my gold doubloon filled swimming pool) come from....PLAYING THE GAME.
OMG.
I have a few characters I'm leveling-I play them and sell drops, crafting junk where appropriate. In the course of selling drops I find 'good stuff', which is where my niches come from.
I'm working on a high end build for my fire/axe tank, so he's been farming MA. He can hit the ticket cap (the inventory ticket cap, not the map ticket cap) in 45 minutes or so. He singlehandedly generates such a flood of valuable recipes that I've been logging in *all* of my alts on Freedom to serve as market mules.
I've uncharacteristically been able to run a couple of TFs in the last few weeks. I play on PUGs, I do some soloing.
When the weekend rolls around, voila! I've got another billion to heat our base with.
Making inf isn't hard, not even if you're supposedly a "casual" gamer.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
This thread is awesome.
B_C : You irrational concept of entitlement is flawed, and yes it IS just entitlement. It is not a concept of what everyone 'deserves' by any stretch of the imagination. Why not ? Because if you look at pretty much any game around - the rarest, most difficult to acquire stuff takes time and effort via some set of specific tasks.
If you blatantly refuse to do any of the tasks that are likely to produce the results you want, obviously you are doing it wrong.
Assuming you want a pile of pvp IOs I have to assume you pvp ? Those things really aren't worth much in pve, certainly not 2 billion each.
If you pvp, you are not a casual gamer.
If you don't pvp but still want pvp IOs - you are not a casual gamer.
Also pvp IOs are leagues different than SOs, the enhancements the game is designed around.
The market is simple to use : get stuff and sell it. Then buy stuff.
You can play the game and then sell drops at the market - this doesn't really take you away from the game because it's just like selling at a vendor except you can make ALOT more at the market.
Purples and pvp IOs are beyond the scope of average and casual gamers - if you want those rewards you have to go hardcore to some degree to get them.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
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Why is your abnormal playstyle better than our abnormal playstyle?
| 3) easy? I have been grinding a fire farm until i want to throw up fire? easy? go pound sand. |
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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Actually, just going for some extra recharge, plus the fact the PvPs set bonuses do not disappear for exemplaring (this is my Ouro toon as well) |
Originally Posted by Lohenien
This thread is awesome.
B_C : You irrational concept of entitlement is flawed, and yes it IS just entitlement. It is not a concept of what everyone 'deserves' by any stretch of the imagination. Why not ? Because if you look at pretty much any game around - the rarest, most difficult to acquire stuff takes time and effort via some set of specific tasks. If you blatantly refuse to do any of the tasks that are likely to produce the results you want, obviously you are doing it wrong. Assuming you want a pile of pvp IOs I have to assume you pvp ? Those things really aren't worth much in pve, certainly not 2 billion each. If you pvp, you are not a casual gamer. If you don't pvp but still want pvp IOs - you are not a casual gamer. Also pvp IOs are leagues different than SOs, the enhancements the game is designed around. The market is simple to use : get stuff and sell it. Then buy stuff. You can play the game and then sell drops at the market - this doesn't really take you away from the game because it's just like selling at a vendor except you can make ALOT more at the market. Purples and pvp IOs are beyond the scope of average and casual gamers - if you want those rewards you have to go hardcore to some degree to get them. |
But seriously, I think the rewards for years of gaming do need to be bettter
Just wanted to say that the Devs don't set the price of things. We do.
Enjoy your day please.
In one month, I went from 150m to 8b. Just the marketeering alone, I spent probably an hour(And this is stretching it, as it only takes me twenty or so minutes crafting,buying salvage/listing) at most doing it, once a day. Making inf. is rediculously easy in this game.
The main problem for others is they: A) Don't have the inititive to even try, or B) Feel something in inherently wrong with the game, and somehow market prices are manipulated by something other then supply/demand(Like evil flippers/marketeers).
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Now there's an idea. I should be paying my friends to do all the farming and markeering for me! It could be their job. I'd pay them by the hour and give them all new computers on which to play and make sure their game accounts (which I'd also pay for) have all the add-ons and expansions. All they have to do is give me most of the inf they have earned, on a regular basis.|
Originally Posted by NordBlast
Devs are only one part of your problem...
According to this post these are another part  |
I'll remember that the next time I win the lottery.
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You missed my point. If I spend 'years of gaming' running nothing but low-mid level content then I cannot expect high level rewards.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Actually, just going for some extra recharge, plus the fact the PvPs set bonuses do not disappear for exemplaring (this is my Ouro toon as well)
But seriously, I think the rewards for years of gaming do need to be bettter |
If I spend all my time doing things that are not efficient at generating rewards I want - I am wasting my time.
To get what you want you need to do the things that get you to that goal as fast as you want to get there.
You absolutely cannot expect a random number generator to spit out exactly what you want when you want it. That is why you need to either farm drops, influence or merits.
Influence and drops a very efficient if you are willing to use the market to maximize their worth. Merits are designed for the lazy folks that don't want to bother working for something at a rigorous pace .
If you do not like the pace of merit rewards or the randomness of drops - you then have one option : farm influence.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
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I agree completely. I just reactivated my sub today. So the only time I've logged on in the last two months was for the free weekend a month ago. I made one billion influence the last month with one round of buying when I wasn't even an active player.|
Originally Posted by Sneaky Speedie
In one month, I went from 150m to 8b. Just the marketeering alone, I spent probably an hour(And this is stretching it, as it only takes me twenty or so minutes crafting,buying salvage/listing) at most doing it, once a day. Making inf. is rediculously easy in this game.
The main problem for others is they: A) Don't have the inititive to even try, or B) Feel something in inherently wrong with the game, and somehow market prices are manipulated by something other then supply/demand(Like evil flippers/marketeers). |
In this game you can fart out 100 million influence.
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Does sympathy count?
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Originally Posted by PuceNonagon
So, the people that DO play all day, farming and playing the market like maniacs, they shouldn't have anything for them?
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And plenty of people have shown you plenty of ways to get said 'good stuff' within DAYS. not YEARS. the Dev's don't set the prices. The Devs don't decide anything. the PLAYERS do. and the players are showing YOU how to get them good stuff (which again you don't actually need) in a very short amount of time.