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This comes close to being a civil discourse. Thank you for that. And brings up some thoughtful points, thank you again. So, here goes: i have been gaming in the city many years. seriously, I'll meet you in game, show you my vet badges if that is required. I have farmed some, gotten luck some, ran a 50 for a year almost exclusively. Still, not rich. (This is the opportunity for so many of you to tell me I'm doing it wrong, go ahead, it only proves my point) Let's call me an average gamer. Heck, go for below average. Still, i have played consistently, for quite some time. I cannot afford to begin to get these sets. 2 billion per enhancer. Not per set, per enhancer. I cannot afford to pimp one toon at this level after all this time. (Again, throw those insults, you make my point for me)|
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
Because it is so simple & basic a concept it shouldn't require explanation. The purpose of the invention system overall, is to appeal to all players, not simply 'casual' or new players. That is why items are divided into tiers of rarity.
The game does not consist solely of your 'casual' or new players. There is a significant population of long-term & 'hard core' players, and one purpose of the invention system is to cater to those types of players. Again, this is nothing exclusive to City of Heroes. It's a basic design concept of nearly all MMO's out there, including the 800 pound gorilla, Treadmill of Loot. |
Your average player, even after years, will never get these rewards for even one of their toons. That is not attractive to your average gamer. That is my postulate. If it is not attractive to your average consumer, it will fail. That is my conclusion.
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Fun and high-end builds don't have a 1 to 1 correlation. Heck my most FUN toon right now is my 36th level Elec/Energy Armor Stalker. She's really fun and her current build cost me less than 500M. Can I make her 5% more powerful for adding another 500M? Yes....but it won't really add to the fun that much so I haven't....despite the fact that I make 600M-1B on the market every single day of the week (unless I didn't log in the day before). If you want the nice shinies you have to do something to get them. Thats how games like this work.
|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Wow. You guys are really addicted to the fact that market prices need to be 2 billion, and that playing the market is how to make money.
Let me clue you in to a little fact. Most people who get this game want to create and run characters. Most of the people who play this game want to earn rewards with their characters. Think about it. Think about marketing a game. It is a game, remember. Stay with me now. A game is supposed to be fun. You remember fun, right? |
Quote:
Starts off well. I think we can make this work!|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
This comes close to being a civil discourse. Thank you for that. And brings up some thoughtful points, thank you again. So, here goes: i have been gaming in the city many years. seriously, I'll meet you in game, show you my vet badges if that is required. I have farmed some, gotten luck some, ran a 50 for a year almost exclusively. Still, not rich. (This is the opportunity for so many of you to tell me I'm doing it wrong, go ahead, it only proves my point) Let's call me an average gamer. Heck, go for below average. Still, i have played consistently, for quite some time. I cannot afford to begin to get these sets. 2 billion per enhancer. Not per set, per enhancer. I cannot afford to pimp one toon at this level after all this time. (Again, throw those insults, you make my point for me)
|
Quote:
| Your average player, even after years, will never get these rewards for even one of their toons. That is not attractive to your average gamer. That is my postulate. If it is not attractive to your average consumer, it will fail. That is my conclusion. |
The average gamer does not want to purchase every single PvPIO in-game in one go.
Sir, you have ended this thread with perfect punctuation. I award you, Casual Gamer, with the Purple Warshade. Congratulations.
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
Just gonna toss in my 2inf, here.
I consider myself a "casual" player. Mostly because I get terribly distracted with base building. I actually play my toons maybe 3-4 times a week for about 2 hours at a time. I have not made my first billion, nor am I overly concerned with it.
I DO have a build for my lvl 50 kin/arch worked up on Mid's.
Actually, I have 5 builds worked up for her - some with purples, some without.
Now, the builds are based on the premise that I plan to exemp with her...
Guess what?... the best build happens to be one without any purples (& without fitness, even).
Funny, that.
.
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|
Don�t say things. What you are stands over you the while, and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary. - R.W. Emerson |
YUMMY Low-Hanging Fruit for BASE LUV
Devs are only one part of your problem...
According to this post these are another part
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Originally Posted by EnD_Reitanna
QR... In reality there are a bunch of RPers playing tanks with shields or catgirls w/e who purple out their toons even if they don't need it. QR Surely it is my personal opinion but 2 bill for 1 IO is just wrong. And it wouldn't happen if ppl didn't go to <insert korean page here> and buy bill for 15 bucks. QR |
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DSorrow, you've got the right take on this. Purples and PvP IOs are only marginally superior to the best rares. With the addition of alignment merits, any full set of rares can be had with only a few hours of play.|
Originally Posted by DSorrow
I look at enhancements such as PvP IOs like this:
First: Shiny! I want that. Then: I see how much it costs. Then: I look for a cheaper alternative. Then: I find it after a minute of looking. Finally: I pick the cheaper alternative for a fraction of the cost. Usually I can get enhancements that are at leasy half as effective as the purples/PvP IOs I was looking at for less than 10% of their price. Besides, the price of everything on the market is determined by players so shouting at devs won't help. You're barking at the wrong tree. |
Others have suggested that it's not the devs are not responsible for high prices, it's the players. While it's true that the devs don't set the prices players charge each other, they do set the drop rates and decide what enemies drops which items. By limiting supply and providing opportunities for players to make very large quantities of inf, the devs are setting the stage for high prices.
But the OP has exactly the same opportunities as other players to make that inf, and if he chooses not to do so because it's too time-consuming or tedious, there's no reason to be bitter about it: that part of the game is just not for him.
Just like I was never a chess master because I never devoted the thousands of hours of effort required to master the game at that level, I will never have a character with multiple (or even one PvP) set because it's too much work for too little incremental improvement.
To the OP: you need to adjust your thinking. You can always get what you want by not wanting what you can't get.
That said, however, you can still make absolutely fabulous characters on a shoestring budget by picking the right AT and powerset, and then picking cheap IOs that complement those choices.
You can make a kick-*ss Inv/SS tanker that's soft-capped to S/L damage using all uncommon IOs except for Perfect Zinger, which can be had for a pittance. Once you have that you can solo +0/x8 missions at level 50 against the majority of enemy types and get purple drops with alarming regularity. You can then sell those purples and play the market in other ways to finance your PvP IO habit.
If that's not what you want to do, you can't complain that it's impossible to get what you want in a reasonable amount of time. It definitely IS possible.
Finally, if you want PvP IOs, then PvP! If no one PvPs, there will be no PvP IOs! Become part of the solution by increasing supply, instead of part of the problem by increasing demand.
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Ok, I'll bite - already answered in this thread, but restating.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
i keep asking one question. People insult. people ask me questions. No one even attempts to answer it.
I ask again. How does this reward system benefit the "city of" franchise? What makes it fun to the casual gamer plunking down a monthly fee for this? |
The invention system allows progress for
- Non-interested - vendor recipes and salvage or dump on market for single-digit inf
- Casual - craft/use applicable items that drop, sell the rest for minimal inf on market
- Interested - buy, sell, flip "casually" - frankenslotting characters or building with mid-range sets
- Power - marketeer for fun (and profit)
- Elite - deals regularly in ultra-rare loot, burns inf for fun
Your hypothesis seems to be that "casual" players should be able to readily
obtain loot which Power players save up for (and Elite players deal in regularly)
Anything which is trading near, at, or above the inf cap isn't something a casual
player is likely to use (other than to sell and use the inf for other things).
My hypothesis is that anyone who uses a build planner on their own initiative
immediately places themselves out of the "casual" bin.
As has been pointed out, your benchmark of 240 hours of play at level 50
garnering 6 ultra-rare recipes is probably reasonably close to what is seen
on average. But that pesky random number generator means it could take
significantly longer (or shorter - in a play session last week, one teammate
got two good purple drops in about 10 minutes)
Global: @AcceleratorRay
Heroes on Triumph
Villains on Victory
Proud member of Triumphant Defenders
Fight My Brute
Still no logical reason why the current system works for the average gamer. The fact that you do not need anything but SOs is not really a logical answer. If the toys are in the game, the Devs should make the toys available to average gamers, at least over the period of years. seriously, I am not asking (Though a few people have stated that I have asked) for a 50 automatically, with all the PvP and Purp that are available, immediately. I am simply saying that after a few years it should be reasonable to expect to have at least one toon (with all wealth except SOs concentrated to one build) reasonably pimped out with the best stuff. Seriously, I would be amazed I have to make this point. of course I am in a room of farmers and marketeers. But seriously, no one can even admit that this is reasonable from a game design standpoint? Nice.
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Not that you asked that in your OP, but here's one answer:|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
I ask again. How does this reward system benefit the "city of" franchise? What makes it fun to the casual gamer plunking down a monthly fee for this?
|
I have a friend that just started playing. He's extremely casual with this game. He picked up a Purple drop within 15 hours of play time. He crafted and sold said purple after gaining a little money in a matter of hours, and sold it for hundreds of millions. He has no concern for IOs at this point (being too new to care about learning more on top of a whole new game) so he's pretty set for buying SOs. He's happy with that. So, you see, you're argument was destroyed by his experience.
Since your argument was based of your own point of view, his experience from his POV must be considered as valid as yours.
Now, all this talk of insulting... why is it bad for people to make out-right, direct insults, but ok for you to make veiled insults through indirect condescending remarks suggestion no one can make a valid argument to your demonstrably wrong statements? At least those being upfront can be honest for their disdain.
Again, if you're so much smarter than the rest of us, how is you haven't managed to casually play the market despite numerous guides made available here? I've posed the question before, now that I've answered one of yours, you can answer one of mine.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
Blue, let me put it simply:
Average "casual" players don't care about those Enhancements. I know I don't. I don't have a single one, on any of my characters, and I'm not crying about it. Look how much I care: 
Guess how much content gets crushed under my heroic/villanous foot? All content I have faced thus far.
Don't lower the bar for everyone, Blue. Think of the children.
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There's your answer right there. And I'm not saying that to be snarky (well, maybe a little|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Let's call me an average gamer. Heck, go for below average.
|
), but your statement right there is the crux of the entire issue. You said before you worked almost solely with SO builds, yet now you want to jump immediately to the absolute most expensive & rarest items in the game? Do you really not see the disconnect there?Quote:
| 2 billion per enhancer. Not per set, per enhancer. |
Quote:
| Your average player, even after years, will never get these rewards for even one of their toons. That is not attractive to your average gamer. That is my postulate. If it is not attractive to your average consumer, it will fail. That is my conclusion. |
On top of that, most players, including your 'average' & 'casual' player, understand the basic concept of rarity and loot tiers, and that it takes effort to achieve the best items in an MMO.
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The average player doesn't solo AVs. The average player doesn't complete the RWZ challenge. The average player does average things and needs an average build to do them. The vast majority of my characters use SOs because the vast majority of my characters are still under level 32. I tend to delete them in the 30s to make way for new alts. Supposedly the average player doesn't even read the forums.| You average player, even after years, will never get these rewards for even one of their toons. That is not attractive to your average gamer. That is my postulate. If it is not attractive to your average consumer, it will fail. That is my conclusion. |
You want the items that average players don't need. You wish to rise above average. You wish these things but refuse to put forth the effort to do it. Tough ****.
If you do not wish to BE average, you must stop acting average. You will not buy that Lamborghini while being paid minimum wage.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Why must you turn our forum into a HOUSE OF LIES?|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
I have farmed some, gotten luck some, ran a 50 for a year almost exclusively. Still, not rich.
|
The LEAST a level 50 character will earn per hour is one million inf, and that's just from defeats and vendor prices.
If you play a 50, you *will* get extremely valuable drops.
It is literally impossible to play a 50 'almost exclusively' for a year without accumulating a sizable fortune. Unless you play like ten minutes a week or something.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
Whoa, I guess I qualify for all of those.
|
Originally Posted by AcceleratorRay
|
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
same here...it's like he read my mind!
0.0
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
It is a logical answer. I'm a fairly casual player. The current system works because there is a multitude of easily acquired IOs that will give you a solid build for kicking some serious butt available to even the most casual of players and without raiding or serious time commitments. The current system works because there are some plum drops you can -- again -- acquire solo and via casual playing which allow you to slowly increase the strength of your lvl 50s which keeps some interest in playing your 50s. The fact that you can't get all of those drops immediately is not a game flaw. The fact that you can't easily buy them is not a game flaw. The fact that those drops only marginally increase your performance (and in a game designed around SOs where even a frankenslotted player should stomp mobs regularly) validate the lack of need to hand them out like candy or force their availability to other players.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Still no logical reason why the current system works for the average gamer. The fact that you do not need anything but SOs is not really a logical answer.
|
I've played games where there's a legitimate gulf between casual players in their Battered Tin Breastplate of Smoldering Embers and the "hard core" players in their Gleaming Mithril Breastplate of Roaring Inferos and the only way to feel like less of a chump was to start raiding full time for the chance to one day have that sort of gear. City of Heroes isn't that game.
Quote:
No wonder I'm having problems concentrating - too many personalities|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
same here...it's like he read my mind!
0.0 |
bouncing around in my skull
Get offa my frontal lobes!
Global: @AcceleratorRay
Heroes on Triumph
Villains on Victory
Proud member of Triumphant Defenders
Fight My Brute
Quote:
It is reasonable. Evidenced by the fact that there are many players that have these types of builds. So it is clearly an achievable goal. You clearly are either unable, or unwilling to put forth the required effort to obtain what you want. The opportunity is there. Just remember that equal opportunity does not mean equal outcome is guaranteed. |
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
I am simply saying that after a few years it should be reasonable to expect to have at least one toon (with all wealth except SOs concentrated to one build) reasonably pimped out with the best stuff.
|
You should scale back your expectations to something is more in line with the skill level you have, and the effort you are willing to expend to obtain what you want.
By the time I get my response in, I'm like... [wow, there are a lot of inappropriate metaphors kicking around my brain] ... well, I'm consistently late.
The hell with y'all, I am going to count how many items in this game sell for more than ONE billion.
EDIT 1: Well, zero purples are selling for as much as a billion.
EDIT 2: Shield Wall +Res, three Panaceas, Gladiator's Javelin proc, Gladiator's Armor +Def in the level 50 PVP list.
EDIT 3: No Hami-Os.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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Your casual friend player got a purp within 15 hours of playing. Okay. You guys win. I am horrible at this stuff. Cause I was no where near 47th level by the end of my first 15 hours of casual gaming. If i remember right I was street hunting Port oakes with a brute. No purps there.|
Originally Posted by Rylas
Not that you asked that in your OP, but here's one answer:
I have a friend that just started playing. He's extremely casual with this game. He picked up a Purple drop within 15 hours of play time. He crafted and sold said purple after gaining a little money in a matter of hours, and sold it for hundreds of millions. He has no concern for IOs at this point (being too new to care about learning more on top of a whole new game) so he's pretty set for buying SOs. He's happy with that. So, you see, you're argument was destroyed by his experience. Since your argument was based of your own point of view, his experience from his POV must be considered as valid as yours. Now, all this talk of insulting... why is it bad for people to make out-right, direct insults, but ok for you to make veiled insults through indirect condescending remarks suggestion no one can make a valid argument to your demonstrably wrong statements? At least those being upfront can be honest for their disdain. Again, if you're so much smarter than the rest of us, how is you haven't managed to casually play the market despite numerous guides made available here? I've posed the question before, now that I've answered one of yours, you can answer one of mine. |
also, yes, I did run a 50 for about a year. Casually. And even at a million per hour that would take 2,000 hours for one of these enhancers. Maybe we have a different idea about what is casual. I am not sure the new gamers "City of" is trying to reach are gonna 50 in 15 hours, or get 2 bill in riches every couple weeks. Mebbe I'm wrong.
Quote:
this totally makes me want to buy random snipe recipes from myself for a billion
|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
By the time I get my response in, I'm like... [wow, there are a lot of inappropriate metaphors kicking around my brain] ... well, I'm consistently late.
The hell with y'all, I am going to count how many items in this game sell for more than ONE billion. |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chaos Creator
this totally makes me want to buy random snipe recipes from myself for a billion
|
Only if they're Calibrated Accuracy...
Makes me want to go check how long it has been since a
Calibrated Accuracy recipe/enhancement went for more than
or equal to vendor/crafting cost.
Global: @AcceleratorRay
Heroes on Triumph
Villains on Victory
Proud member of Triumphant Defenders
Fight My Brute
Actually, I am not trolling. And seriously, i set out to rebuild my main this weekend, a purp'd out Dark/Invul Brute. I was gonna replace the heal sets I have in two powers (55 rech each bonus0, with PvP heal sets (7.5% bonus) Many of the enhancers 9like half) are going for 2 bill each.
When I decided to sign up for this game, I was on trial account and had a maximum limit of 50k infamy. My poverty didn't deter me from enjoying the game. If I have a billion, it's icing on the cake. Basically, you don't need a billion dollar F1 racer to drive to work. A $2000 used car can get you there.
I will agree that what I like in this game is prolly not the same as what other folks like. In general, I enjoy teams and strikeforces best. For those, I don't need 1 billion infamy.
I think I'm going to make that the word-of-the-day for my English classes tomorrow.
Never argue with stupid people. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
@vanda1 and @nakoa2