Discussion: The 2010 Halloween Event is here!
By
2short2care,
Posted on: 2010-10-21 13:48 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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She may have felt "earnest" in her desire, I think she was just being silly and over-sensitive to boot.|
Originally Posted by Ang_Rui_Shen
I would have used the word "earnest" instead of "silly".
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Originally Posted by Vega
Except that the only Malleus reference in game has always been the "Mundi". I don't see any complaining about The cannibal badge which is for defeating ghouls. Am I supposed to believe that I ate them?
This is starting to remind me of the time someone was on here saying that the slap/smack emotes promoted violence against women and wanted them removed. Just plain silly What is her solution for character(s) that use that as a badge title? I for one lost "Executioner" when they removed it from the game. I do not want to see anything like that again, even for name changes, and especially not on a badge that has existed for a couple of years now. |
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'Nuremberg' might be the best badge title for the theoretical Council/5th Column defeat badge. Although that works best if the Council/5th Column really are Nazi analogs. I seem to recall that Requiem was part of Mussolini's government, though.
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Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
I fail to see why not, although Nazis were of course not actually the ones interned in death camps, so that might be kind of backwards.
Badge text could go something like: "You've given the Council a taste of their own deadly medicine," or I am sure someone else could think up text even more appropriate. |
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Couldn't agree with this more. But, just might want to add a couple of things. |
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
The issue Golden Girl has brought up really has nothing to do with overreacting or being overly sensitive.
In a medium of entertainment that clearly strives to maintain certain levels of taste... That choice of a name is in questionable taste, if not clearly in bad taste. Golden Girl, and anyone else, has every right to point this out. And no one needs to convince any other players about it, she is raising the issue to the creators and those responsible and capable of changing it. While I do agree that the lengths of time since specific atrocities were committed do change the general etiquette regarding what is or is not in bad taste, I think that it is clear that most (If not all) other badge titles and other aspects of pop-culture and/or real world historical references in this game do not cross a certain standard. If there are other historical references that resemble the relation of Malleus and Witches within this game, then I stand corrected. In all honesty... the reference very well may have been picked up and chosen more from some fictional work (the name Witch Hammer and so on and so forth has likely been used in many fictional works) without realizing the bloody historical significance. I only say that to mention that the full matter may not have been considered when that name was chosen. *shrugs* No one is crying and covering their children's eyes and making a big something out of nothing... Someone made a post (And hopefully a PM or more?) about an intellectual concern of content containing, at least, questionable taste. I don't get offended by such things. However, I still recognize that the game seems to hold a certain standard and I can absolutely agree that this particular badge seems to break that standard. Not a big deal. Remove that connection. As for it being okay if you're a villain... Hey, yeah, I agree with that. The questioned content isn't about how it does or doesn't fit with what happens in the game in order to achieve it... It is about the out-of-game connotation and the question of if that is necessarily in good taste. Detractors of Golden Girl... Just as you may tell her to relax... Perhaps so should you.  |
First, meanings, and language change over time. If anyone even gets the reference, most think, "Witch Hunter," and think no further. So from that point of view, it seems within the games self-imposed limits. However on a deeper look, Golden Girl's points are quite on target. As EK said, it's fairly unique among the badges (as far as I'm aware) as to the nature of it's reference material.
So, *if* we were grant that it's in horrible taste (not saying I think it is or isn't), and that Golden Girl is completely right, it still may warrant more justification to be changed. What harm is done to leave it? Does anyone actually see it and think it's a vote of support and encouragement for the types of actions carried out hundreds of years ago? The only concrete harm I can see it causing is some people are going to be put off by it. But it's removal will also put some people off. If no other reason to change it can be thought of, it's going to be up to a Dev somewhere to decide how the 3 camps break down. I would guess the most will be in the "Don't really care," category, and the, "Must stay," and "Must be changed," camps will both small.
All of the other good arguments (and the bad ones) kinda go out the window really, is it causes more harm staying than going, or vice-versa. But if it's just a matter of group A doesn't care, group B hates it, and group c love it, it's just a popularity contest, and thus the reasons you care doesn't matter, it's all taste at that point, as far as I can tell.
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Excellent points and I agree.|
Originally Posted by Madadh
Couldn't agree with this more. But, just might want to add a couple of things.
First, meanings, and language change over time. If anyone even gets the reference, most think, "Witch Hunter," and think no further. So from that point of view, it seems within the games self-imposed limits. However on a deeper look, Golden Girl's points are quite on target. As EK said, it's fairly unique among the badges (as far as I'm aware) as to the nature of it's reference material. So, *if* we were grant that it's in horrible taste (not saying I think it is or isn't), and that Golden Girl is completely right, it still may warrant more justification to be changed. What harm is done to leave it? Does anyone actually see it and think it's a vote of support and encouragement for the types of actions carried out hundreds of years ago? The only concrete harm I can see it causing is some people are going to be put off by it. But it's removal will also put some people off. If no other reason to change it can be thought of, it's going to be up to a Dev somewhere to decide how the 3 camps break down. I would guess the most will be in the "Don't really care," category, and the, "Must stay," and "Must be changed," camps will both small. All of the other good arguments (and the bad ones) kinda go out the window really, is it causes more harm staying than going, or vice-versa. But if it's just a matter of group A doesn't care, group B hates it, and group c love it, it's just a popularity contest, and thus the reasons you care doesn't matter, it's all taste at that point, as far as I can tell. |
One (fun/philosophical-ish) question that it all poses (for me) is basically, "Is something without tact worth changing if there isn't any intention nor real solid target for offense?"
Somewhat like the old "tree falling in the woods"... Is something tactless if there's no real offense?
Hehe... Then again... It figures that I'd see it the way that I do, since I've always thought that the wood in the trees thing was stupid. Of course it makes a sound, even if no one is there to hear it.
I suppose, beyond putting sound waves and vibrations above the significance of our brains' perceptions, I place trying to be respectful and tactful above whether or not anyone is around to take offense.
I'm certainly not proclaiming that to be the right or wrong way to go, nor some guide for all things! *shrugs*
Haha, anyway, I especially agree that there are likely two very small camps who might disagree and a large mass of those who have zero concern over it.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
Why was the Halloween Event so short this year? It seems like we had much less time then ever. I thought all holiday events were always 2 weeks? Are we going to get a few more days??? In the past we were all given more time, let's keep it going...
--
koko-
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There are a couple of badges that reference groups/things that did horrible atrocities in the past, just depends on how far you dig. There are several badges that SHOULD be removed based just on this PoV. |
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
While I do agree that the lengths of time since specific atrocities were committed do change the general etiquette regarding what is or is not in bad taste, I think that it is clear that most (If not all) other badge titles and other aspects of pop-culture and/or real world historical references in this game do not cross a certain standard.
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That said, if one changes, they all need to change. There have been a couple of examples already in the thread if you need some reference.
Legionnaire for example. What does it mean? Nothing to most people, other than it's a Roman soldier. Do you know what legionnaire*s DID? You would remove the badge faster than Malleus.
The reference that this badge makes is never explicit. Yes, a book was written 500 years ago that shares part of the title, and the contents of the book vs the meaning is close, but that doesn't make it a smoking gun.
ITT; GoldenGirl Drama
She's always looking for something to complain about or be against people about. Frankly I'm beginning to feel she's a bit of a cancer on the forums. Hey, I'm just saying what everyone is thinking.
It's kind of funny, there's an alleged "wiccan" here, but the Malleus ( Salem Witch trials, Witch Hunts all together, etc ) actually had nothing remotely to do with Wicca itself. Cool point of fact, that's WHY "Witch Hunt" is used in the way it is. Because they literally weren't actual witches, they were just normal people.. Not Wiccans.. Just.. People..
So, yeah. Actually you really have nothing to be offended about if you're Wiccan even if this is a reference to the Malleficarum because it has nothing to do with you and it's certainly not any attempted jab at you.
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Quoted for agreement...
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Originally Posted by JadeTora
ITT; GoldenGirl Drama
She's always looking for something to complain about or be against people about. Frankly I'm beginning to feel she's a bit of a cancer on the forums. Hey, I'm just saying what everyone is thinking. |
I'm already looking forward to Halloween 2011 and the resumption of GG's jihad against the Malleus badge!
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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I didn't see any examples of this.|
Originally Posted by ohloh
There are a couple of badges that reference groups/things that did horrible atrocities in the past, just depends on how far you dig. There are several badges that SHOULD be removed based just on this PoV.
That said, if one changes, they all need to change. There have been a couple of examples already in the thread if you need some reference. Legionnaire for example. What does it mean? Nothing to most people, other than it's a Roman soldier. Do you know what legionnaire*s DID? You would remove the badge faster than Malleus. The reference that this badge makes is never explicit. Yes, a book was written 500 years ago that shares part of the title, and the contents of the book vs the meaning is close, but that doesn't make it a smoking gun. |
As for the one you just presented...
Legionnaires were indeed hired soldiers for the Roman Empire, but lumping them together as a group that committed atrocities equal to or greater than a piece of literature used by a specific group to murder innocent people in the name of their god... That's just not equivalent.
To lump Legionaries in as an atrocity is to include every single soldier... Hey, while you're at it, do you know what most knights did?
You'll get no argument from me if you want to lump all of war and its violence as atrocities against humanity... but that is far far away from the popular opinion and/or the societal definitions of atrocities... and far away from what you are suggesting in your post.
Seriously, if there are other badge titles or anything in this game that use such specific real world atrocities as their influence... I have no problem saying I was wrong to suggest that the game follows a different standard than what the Malleus badge does.
As for some other replies in here... haha, yeah, this isn't anyting I feel any need to fight about.
Jade Tora, you speak as well for all the rest of forum-users as Justin Bieber does for all of Rock and Roll.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
Crimes Against Humanity -> "are particularly odious offences in that they constitute a serious attack on human dignity or grave humiliation or a degradation of one or more human beings. They are not isolated or sporadic events, but are part either of a government policy (although the perpetrators need not identify themselves with this policy) or of a wide practice of atrocities tolerated or condoned by a government or a de facto authority"
I do believe the very definition of crimes against humanity describes exactly what the roman legionnaire's did. Knight DID do crimes, but, they do not have a badge in this game.
As for it being religious in nature or not, the Holy Roman Empire was a government body in every sense that a government is.
I believe Column Breaker was given as an example as well. I'd have to dig further to find other badges that have historical references that have bloody pasts.
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I've watched it happen every year for the last 3 or 4. Standing, pointing and laughing the mess it makes is generally the best way to deal with it, there's no point getting involved.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
I'm already looking forward to Halloween 2011 and the resumption of GG's jihad against the Malleus badge!
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This, 3:45 in basically sums it up for me.
I do not believe the badge should be changed, nor were there any intentions of creating an offense by the developers.
If everything that could be considered potentially offensive by anyone were removed from the game we would be left without a game. Development would halt to retrofit an unending list of offenses taken to the nth degree and the player base would be given an utterly boring, uninteresting game.
However, if a player is truly offended by this game I hear there is a "Hello Kitty" on line game out there...
CLOSE CITY OF HEROES?
NEVER PLAY ANOTHER NCSOFT PRODUCT AGAIN.
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I've been a practicing Wiccan since 1984, and references to the Malleus Maleficarum don't bother me a bit. It was a tool used to commit atrocities hundreds of years ago and honestly has no bearing on a video game in 2010. I'd vote to keep the badge as is.
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Originally Posted by JadeTora
ITT; GoldenGirl Drama
She's always looking for something to complain about or be against people about. Frankly I'm beginning to feel she's a bit of a cancer on the forums. Hey, I'm just saying what everyone is thinking. It's kind of funny, there's an alleged "wiccan" here, but the Malleus ( Salem Witch trials, Witch Hunts all together, etc ) actually had nothing remotely to do with Wicca itself. Cool point of fact, that's WHY "Witch Hunt" is used in the way it is. Because they literally weren't actual witches, they were just normal people.. Not Wiccans.. Just.. People.. So, yeah. Actually you really have nothing to be offended about if you're Wiccan even if this is a reference to the Malleficarum because it has nothing to do with you and it's certainly not any attempted jab at you. |
Lvl 50 fire/rad troller Wantonya - Infinity
Too many other alts and servers to bother counting
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Originally Posted by koko-
Why was the Halloween Event so short this year? It seems like we had much less time then ever. I thought all holiday events were always 2 weeks? Are we going to get a few more days??? In the past we were all given more time, let's keep it going...
-- koko- |
I was thinking the same thing. Ten days? It seems like it was longer last year and the year before, but I don't have the specific dates in front of me atm.
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Yeah, I am not sure about actual dates and previous Halloween events, but I thought it was shorter as well. I could be wrong though...|
Originally Posted by Talon_Arsenal
I was thinking the same thing. Ten days? It seems like it was longer last year and the year before, but I don't have the specific dates in front of me atm.
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I've been going with the thought that it may be shorter due to getting things cleared up for Issue 19 to arrive here before the Thanksgiving holiday portion of this month.
Not sure if there is any reality to any of that but it is a happy spin...
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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I have to apologize to everyone.|
Originally Posted by Talon_Arsenal
I was thinking the same thing. Ten days? It seems like it was longer last year and the year before, but I don't have the specific dates in front of me atm.
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It was actually four days.
G_G teased that i19 was going to go live after the event, and I really wanted i19 to get here, so I accelerated time.
Sorry if anyone's weekend was cut short.
I'll leave the time stream alone from now on.
Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.
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....Is someone really trying to hint that the ancient Romans *didn't* really commit atrocities of every type!? Bwahahaha. Be serious. That was an extremely politically-incorrect bunch. In fact, I am mostly of UK descent and the Romans came over and enslaved my ancestors and burned down their sacred groves! EXPUNGE CIMERORA FROM THE GAME NOW! It reminds me of past atrocities when my people were enslaved!!!!111111!!!-! | that Electric guy: Legionnaires were indeed hired soldiers for the Roman Empire, but lumping them together as a group that committed atrocities equal to or greater than a piece of literature used by a specific group to murder innocent people in the name of their god... That's just not equivalent. |
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| Jade Tora, you speak as well for all the rest of forum-users as Justin Bieber does for all of Rock and Roll. |
I'm afraid I must revise my previous point of view. I am now offended by the Malleus badge due to the following book:
MA Arc: School Spirit #89349
Original member of the Dream Team Aeon, Virtue division
"A base here or there is a small price to pay for good mad science."--Arbiter Daos
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I didn't say harping to get the name changed, I said harping on the subject, that includes both sides, and GMan3 is equally as guilty of it as Golden Girl.|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
Ok, I will bite: other than Smiley-Girl and yourself, who exactly is "harping" on the evils of the Malleus badge? Please point them out.
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| Here's my response to that: it is not on other people to do your, or Smiley-Girl's research for you guys. If you think no hero in the entire history of all comics everywhere has never killed anyone, you are completely free to think that. You may not think that, but I think Smiley-Girl does - and that is a total fallacy! Those of us who know differently will smile to ourselves and leave it at that. There are many websites devoted entirely to the Marvel and DC Universes which will tell you all you need to know. |
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Originally Posted by Hallowed
Uhm...
You've never read a Wolverine comic or X-Men title from the 80s and 90s, have you? He kills people all the time. Heck, he even tried to kill his own teammate (Rachel Summers - Phoenix). This is not a point you want to try to build an argument on. |
"I wish my life was a non-stop Hollywood movie show,
A fantasy world of celluloid villains and heroes."
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This deserves its own reply. You are still wrong. I was a History major, have a nice degree and everything. I actually took courses on Medieval Europe, and some on Latin American history, where this subject also comes up. Pretty much everything that the Inquisition charged people with falls under the blanket term of heresy, but the simple fact is that the specific types of heresy that the Spanish Inquisition charged the vast majority of people with were false conversion or apostasy, or backsliding to your old faith. They did not brand these people as witches. That was just an invention of yours. People who invent history to suit their arguments are the enemies of logic and reasonable discourse, as you have proven yourself to be on this subject.
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Originally Posted by GMan3
I
I won't apologize for ignoring this. I never ignored it, I never even saw it before. I will say now though that you appear to have very little understanding for what you are saying though. The charge of heresy was used for practitioners of other faiths as you said, but the it was used synonymously with the term "Witchcraft" which was basically defined as following pagan beliefs which every other religion was considered to be by the church of the time. I would challenge you to actually research this yourself. I DID in order to better understand my own religion better, both historically and modern. |
"I wish my life was a non-stop Hollywood movie show,
A fantasy world of celluloid villains and heroes."
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Funny.
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Originally Posted by Great_Cthulhu
I'm afraid I must revise my previous point of view. I am now offended by the Malleus badge due to the following book:
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Originally Posted by Hallowed
Uhm...
You've never read a Wolverine comic or X-Men title from the 80s and 90s, have you? He kills people all the time. Heck, he even tried to kill his own teammate (Rachel Summers - Phoenix). This is not a point you want to try to build an argument on. |
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Originally Posted by Ms. Mesmer
Perhaps you didn't read those issues. You came back with one attack on a teammate that he knew very well was a powerful telekinetic who could hold any wounds closed, and who had access to the Phoenix-force. Surprise of surprises, she survived. Oh, yeah, and why did he do it? To prevent her from killing someone else who was despicably evil. My argument holds. He has killed, but I'd bet you could count the times in over 30 years of comics that weren't flashbacks to his time as a soldier or government operative on your fingers with some left over. I'm not saying that it's a great character device for someone whose main offensive ability is six unbreakable, razor-sharp claws, but that's Claremont for you. He made the character someone who was specifically repelled by his own dark past of killing, and who refused to do it pretty much at all during his run as writer, a characteristic that Wolverine has mostly retained in the time since Claremont stopped writing him.
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From wikipedia: "Wolverine was typical of the many tough anti-authority antiheroes that emerged in American popular culture after the Vietnam War;[3] his willingness to use deadly force and his brooding nature became standard characteristics for comic book anti-heroes by the end of the 1980s."
As to Rachel/Pheonix, I did not use her as the "only" example, but rather as the extreme example. He stabbed his own teammate through the heart. Now, could he guess/hope that she might survive it? Sure. But could he know for sure? Not a chance. He was willing to kill her to stop her, if necessary.
Again, this is not a point you want to try to build an argument on.
6. Stabbed by Wolverine on remains of Asteroid M,
New X-Men #148 (October 2003)
How is this quicker than being incinerated, again?
After Magneto infiltrated the X-Men under the guise of Xorn (yes, thats what happened, please ignore any Xorn material not written by Grant Morrison) he managed to trap Wolverine and Phoenix on the remains of Asteroid M. When his deception came to light, he plunged the asteroid into the sun.
Wolverine, trying to spare Jean the suffering of being burnt alive, stabbed her with his claws right through her gut and spine. Not a particularly clean kill, to be honest. Jeans death awakened her Phoenix powers, and she was able to fly them both back to Earth to help confront Magneto
8-13. Fatally stabbed SIX SEPERATE TIMES by Wolverine
Phoenix: Endsong #3 (April 2005)
and again, and againGreg Land "draws" Jean dying!
When a wounded part of the Phoenix force makes it way to earth, it brings Jean back to life to help heal itself. Feeling the Phoenix power taking control, she asks Wolverine to repeatedly kill her to weaken the Phoenix. He attempts to do so, disembowelling her no less than 6 times including four on one page. Each time, the Phoenix is able to help resurrect Jean almost immediately, but the entity is weakened enough for Jean to wrest back her faculties.
These are some seriously rapid-fire deaths, and the montage shown may even represent more than what Ive counted. Still, theyre all valid dead is dead, after all!
just sayin...
"Sorry bucko, but CoH and CoV are the same game." -BackAlleyBrawler
"Silly villain, CoX is for Heroes!" -Saicho
Something funny happened when I was hiding on top of an Arachnos tower during a zombie attack: most of them appeared in the air and slid off the sides of the tower. They must have forgotten their rappelling gear.
