Emperor Cole at the end of the Power Loyalist Arc...
By
AnElfCalledMack,
Posted on: 2010-09-20 14:19 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I don't no I see nothing but Shade of grey in Preatoria, They all want peace, they all think they doing good deeds and Every doe Horrible Acts just for the shake of Peace.
I18 Is call Shade of Grey for a reason, because that all Preatoria is, white and black, Good and evil, mix in.
However Preator are mess up in the Head, I kind of think Preator Berry is just Evil for useing the PPD as lab Rats and people, to create the Ghouls.
Never play another NcSoft game, If you feel pride for our game, then it as well, I Superratz am Proud of all of you Coh people, Love, Friendship will last for a lifetime.
Global:@Greenflame Ratz
Main Toons:Super Ratz, Burning B Radical, Green Flame Avenger, Tunnel Ratz, Alex Magnus
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Sad thing is, that he thinks he doing good, True Evil is, Evil that believe it's is good and doing the work of Justice, Like Magneto form the X-Men.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I find insane mass-murdering god-emperors with messiah compexes a very dark shade of gray - the kind of gray that's so dark it's black
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Never play another NcSoft game, If you feel pride for our game, then it as well, I Superratz am Proud of all of you Coh people, Love, Friendship will last for a lifetime.
Global:@Greenflame Ratz
Main Toons:Super Ratz, Burning B Radical, Green Flame Avenger, Tunnel Ratz, Alex Magnus
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And that is my sole motivation. The Resistance, neither the Crusaders or the Wardens, have no long-term plans. The populace rebels... and then what? If Cole comes to the conclusion that there is no longer a way for him to control those under his rule, do you think the man who let Rome, and who knows how many other cities be overrun by Hamidon for the sake of PR advantage would really go peacefully? If what we've evidenced and been related to by witnesses is any indication, it's far more likely that he'd destroy Praetoria himself in a childish hissy fit. That's why the only thing that can be done is to keep Resistance and Cole at each other's throat and preventing them from establishing total control until someone comes along to deal with both Cole and the Crusaders.|
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
I note that if Cole actually wants to kill everyone in Praetoria, if that is his sole and explicit aim, then he's got a really weird way of going about it. I mean, he can go switch off the sonic fence if he wants to, or just start beating people to death with his bare hands. He is the sole Incarnate of Praetoria; he can survive nuclear weapons and the Hamidon; who's going to stop him?
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Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
Longbow being all Golden Girl and trying to tell everyone that Emperor Cole is evil no matter what actual logic you may use, and Arachnos legitimately trying to destroy the place since there's no Lord Recluse there.
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I totally agree about tyrant, he might as well Summon Hamidon or DE to Destroy the city of Preatoria, I always believe Tyrant was behind the Hamidon War Attack's in order to reshape the world and control it.
Never play another NcSoft game, If you feel pride for our game, then it as well, I Superratz am Proud of all of you Coh people, Love, Friendship will last for a lifetime.
Global:@Greenflame Ratz
Main Toons:Super Ratz, Burning B Radical, Green Flame Avenger, Tunnel Ratz, Alex Magnus
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That's possible - although he might have not intended it to get so out of control.|
Originally Posted by GreenFIame
I totally agree about tyrant, he might as well Summon Hamidon or DE to Destroy the city of Preatoria, I always believe Tyrant was behind the Hamidon War Attack's in order to reshape the world and control it.
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He might have worked with Hamidon when he was still a human, and not realized he's turned into the Hamidon monster until they had their little psychic joining.
There's a bit of a gap in Tyrant's bio between him being hit by the nuke and presumed dead, and then him reappearing again just as the DE began to attack when he could have been up to all kinds of stuff
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Maybe cole's under the mental control of Hamidon? would you take back your words if that were the case?
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
That's possible - although he might have not intended it to get so out of control.
He might have worked with Hamidon when he was still a human, and not realized he's turned into the Hamidon monster until they had their little psychic joining. There's a bit of a gap in Tyrant's bio between him being hit by the nuke and presumed dead, and then him reappearing again just as the DE began to attack when he could have been up to all kinds of stuff |
I think the Hamidon would make him destroy Praetoria then, to let the DE take over the whole world 
I think of those two possibilities, it's more likely that Marcus Cole and Hamidon Pasalima worked together to create a crisis that would be designed to force the world to "see sense", with Cole possibly helping Pasalima become an Incarnate along the way, but Pasalima either made a mess of the plan by accident or deliberately betrayed Cole and attempted to take over the world.
In fact, Pasalima could have been looking for a way to transform into a god-like being the whole time, and tricked Cole into believing he shared Cole's aims of "fixing" the world so as he'd be able to get access either to Cole's Incarnate power, or the Well of the Furies itself.
Also, if the Praetorian Hamidon also used magic to help his transformation the way the Primal Earth one did, then that could explain why Tyrant's emprie seems to be rather magic-free.
This could all be Tyrant's guilty little secret - which would give a neat little twist to his line about hubris
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I think this is a great description. The people outside the capitol live a pretty hard-scrabble life, from what I've read, and I think Cole keeps it that way to try to draw as many people as possible into the city. That way he can keep an eye on them better. A concentrated population is much easier to control than a spread-out one. So I think he'll make it harder and harder for people to live outside of the city, to eliminate those rough edges.
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Originally Posted by Cipher
Tyrant will continue eliminating the people on the edges of his utopia and when the people who are now comfortable middle-of-the-road become the new "edge," he'll go after them, too. He'll continue this until he and Praetor Last One Standing are the only two beings on the planet (and possibly multiverse) and then he'll start thinking, "Hey, they're up to SOMETHING!"
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"Home is where, when you have to go there, they have to let you in."
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Where as I do agree with you, and I have agreed with points on both sides of the debate, I can easily see comaparison to real world history/politics. I don't mind, THEY do. I just hate to see a thread about the wonderful writing the devs have created this time around being nuked for real world reasons.
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Originally Posted by Zikar
Well, if they didn't want political commentary they shouldn't have made a game with overtones of political commentary
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While I disagree about Magneto, I do agree with the statement. Evil for laughs is not evil. At least not true evil. True Evil feels it is doing what is best for the world. There are humans that are True Evil in the world. Hitler comes to mind. He truly thought he was doing the best for his country. Ted Bundy was another example in a different light. He was over all a good man that was very kind to his inner circle, from what I can tell. Yet he had a very dark side.
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Originally Posted by GreenFIame
Sad thing is, that he thinks he doing good, True Evil is, Evil that believe it's is good and doing the work of Justice, Like Magneto form the X-Men.
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True evil is the side that loses the war.
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Since DeVore is part of the Resistance I think they got retconned.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
It does make one wonder what the Circle of Thorns are up too. They were dead before the Hamidon wars and should still be down in Orenbega doing whatever ghosts do. And what about the Carnival of Light? (Or did the retconn them?)
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@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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They're still referenced in the new Tina arc, so it seems they're still around but are just not mentioned anywhere else.
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Originally Posted by TrueMetal
Since DeVore is part of the Resistance I think they got retconned.
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My arcs:
Title: Blitzkrieg
Arc ID: 3416
Title: Soldiers of Fortune
Arc ID: 4431
Title: The Rikti Accession
Arc ID: 278757
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Agreed. But that's always been my point. You can't look at the Crusaders and scream "Evil Terrorist" unless you're ignoring that the Crusaders are in an armed insurrection. War changes the rules about what it a legitimate target. There is no Geneva Convention here. No "rules of war." And Cole wouldn't follow them anyway.|
Originally Posted by Venture
Because those were acts of war, strikes against (barely) legitimate military targets.
AFAIK, no one in the German military was charged with a war crime over the Blitz. |
Like with Japan needed to be shown that they can't win, the people of Praetoria must be shown that the social contract that they made with Cole is false. Cole cannot protect them. Tyranny can NEVER protect you. As you stated regarding the American revolutionaries, had they lost, another revolution would have come along later. There is no legitimacy to the argument that "You can be safe so long as you follow the despot." You won't be because there will always be people who will not countenance living in slavery. Revolution is inevitable, conflict is inevitable.
The Responsibility Loyalist are evil for all the reasons Cole is. They have no right to set themselves up as the nannies to the people. They have no right to choose to for everyone else (to turn that silly argument around) that Cole gets to lead everyone else. Had a government chosen by a free and fair election brought Cole to power (and returned him to power at regular intervals), the perhaps that argument would have force.
At least the Power Loyalist don't feel they have this right, they're just in it for the glory. Selfish, but nowhere near the culpability of the Loyalists.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Complete side note: For the six years I've played this game I did not know pre-uber amoeba Hamidon's full name and thanks to this thread I do (Yes I somehow missed it in the mission texts) and it somehow makes the whole devouring earth thing even more skin crawlingly creepy.
A man did all of it, one man and his drive. *shudder*
Hamidon Pasalima, destroyer of worlds, or in some cases universes.
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You are so incredibly wrong that you've broken reality. Congratulations, you have divided by Wrong.|
Originally Posted by Venture
The Syndicate is composed of psychics trying to avoid becoming first Borg drones and then Tilman's lunch.
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Unlike you, however, I'll tell you -why- you're wrong. The Syndicate -CONTAINS- Psychics, Venture. Might even have some psychics in charge. But the Syndicate is composed of Tsoo and Mooks and other organized crime gangs bunching together to keep out of prison.
Big difference, between being composed of and containing.
-Rachel-
Sadly, Venture is mostly right, Steampunkette. The Initiates bio states that all Syndicate have some degree of psychic potential.
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True evil is someone who knows what they're doing is wrong and does it anyway. What you're talking about is schizophrenic heroism. They're completely out of touch with reality that they believe that their logic is the only logic and that anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong.
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Originally Posted by GreenFIame
Sad thing is, that he thinks he doing good, True Evil is, Evil that believe it's is good and doing the work of Justice, Like Magneto form the X-Men.
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Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
Maybe to some degree. But they are the remnants of organized crime. While they might have "Renegade Psychic" as another crime on their rap sheet it's not the only thing they've got on there. And it's also not the -first- thing on their rap sheets, either, if the canon is to be believed.
The Syndicate isn't just a bunch of psychics trying to avoid imprisonment. It's a collection of criminals who grabbed ups some psychics for protection and eventually, themselves, became psychic. Either because they started snagging mostly psychics or the constant tampering awoke psychic power, or because Tub Ci has always had psychic potential.
But Tub Ci was a criminal before Psychics were outlawed/contained.
-Rachel-
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Well, you're right about one thing. After reading your posts, I can't look at Crusaders as Terrorists, anymore. No, they're nothing more or less then murderers. You're not fighting for a future in which the people can live free, you're guaranteeing that they NEVER WILL.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Agreed. But that's always been my point. You can't look at the Crusaders and scream "Evil Terrorist" unless you're ignoring that the Crusaders are in an armed insurrection. War changes the rules about what it a legitimate target. There is no Geneva Convention here. No "rules of war." And Cole wouldn't follow them anyway.
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| The Responsibility Loyalist are evil for all the reasons Cole is. They have no right to set themselves up as the nannies to the people. They have no right to choose to for everyone else (to turn that silly argument around) that Cole gets to lead everyone else. Had a government chosen by a free and fair election brought Cole to power (and returned him to power at regular intervals), the perhaps that argument would have force. |
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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Um, no, it doesn't, since "the rules" such as they are exist to determine what constitutes a legitimate target in time of war. Outside of war nothing's a legitimate target.| You can't look at the Crusaders and scream "Evil Terrorist" unless you're ignoring that the Crusaders are in an armed insurrection. War changes the rules about what it a legitimate target. |
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| There is no Geneva Convention here. No "rules of war." |
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| Like with Japan needed to be shown that they can't win, the people of Praetoria must be shown that the social contract that they made with Cole is false. |
This, also, is considering the Crusaders only by their actions. It gets worse when you actually talk to them. Any ethical person speaking to the likes of Hatchet or Crow for five minutes should realize you don't even want to know these people, must less join a revolution with them.
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| Revolution is inevitable, conflict is inevitable. |
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| The Syndicate -CONTAINS- Psychics, Venture. Might even have some psychics in charge. But the Syndicate is composed of Tsoo and Mooks and other organized crime gangs bunching together to keep out of prison. |
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| The Syndicate isn't just a bunch of psychics trying to avoid imprisonment. |
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| But Tub Ci was a criminal before Psychics were outlawed/contained. |
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| So, the Responsibility Loyalists are as evil as Tyrant...for doing the exact same thing the Heroes of Paragon do? They protect the lives of the people who can't protect themselves to the best of their abilities withing the confines of the law. |
As I've said from the start: Praetoria is a corrupt society and everyone capable of exercising power in it is corrupt.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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Which has left me in a position where I can't actually come up with a Warden character at all. I can't think of a character that is moral enough to try to fight Tyrant, and yet immoral enough to continue to work with the group so closely associated with the Crusaders.
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Originally Posted by Venture
This, also, is considering the Crusaders only by their actions. It gets worse when you actually talk to them. Any ethical person speaking to the likes of Hatchet or Crow for five minutes should realize you don't even want to know these people, must less join a revolution with them.
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The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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They only recruit people with psychic potential. Not psychics. There is a difference. A person with psychic potential may never realize their ability. A Psychic has psychic ability.|
Originally Posted by Venture
No. They are all psychic. Read the Syndicate entry on ParagonWiki.
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Originally Posted by Venture
It is more or less stated in various places (e.g. Kang's arc) that they are. Some of them might have been criminals to begin with that that's immaterial. For at least 15 years they've lived in a totalitarian government that has declared their very drawing of breath a crime.
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Originally Posted by Venture
Tub Ci is not even the leader of (or even a leader of) the Syndicate. He's Wu Yin's bodyguard. The leader (maybe even founder) of the Syndicate is not named and is killed off off-screen as the Nova Praetoria arcs begin. According to McKnight's arc Tub Ci was presumed dead 15 years ago -- which is when the Seer program went online and when the Syndicate was formed. Hmm....
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-Rachel-
Like I've said a million times, your choices in Praetoria are to follow a man gone insane over the stupidity of the world, or to follow a man gone insane over a woman.
The Resistance are stupid, plain and simple, if they win, everyone dies, and so humanity loses.
Cole's Regime, as tyranical and corrupt as it is, is at least keeping the people alive, so they're the lesser of the two evils.
As for the whole alignment thing...
Responsibility Loyalist = Hero, they do everything they can to protect people, even, when it comes down to it, compromising their ideals of the law and defying the will of the Emperor to stop a nuke from detonating in the city.
Warden Resistance = Vigilante, these people seem to ultimately care more about their ideals than the people, this culminates into dooming many, many people in order to bomb the Enriche plant.
Power Loyalists = Rogues, obviously. They call in resistance attacks on places so they can come in and be the hero and do other self-aggrandizing evil stuff, but they also solve problems and do good deeds, if only for selfish reasons they take down the Destroyers in Imperial, for example.
Crusader Resistance = Villains, if you can't tell this from the very beginning when they send you to gas a police station... well something's wrong.
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Neuron#Aid_the_Loyalists
I couldn't imagine bringing myself to side with the Resistance after this.
"Too many have already forgotten how hubris nearly destroyed us all."
I have a funny feeling into the future to come there be a fraction Choice to help Support Cole or Support Primal Earth.
Never play another NcSoft game, If you feel pride for our game, then it as well, I Superratz am Proud of all of you Coh people, Love, Friendship will last for a lifetime.
Global:@Greenflame Ratz
Main Toons:Super Ratz, Burning B Radical, Green Flame Avenger, Tunnel Ratz, Alex Magnus