Emperor Cole at the end of the Power Loyalist Arc...
By
AnElfCalledMack,
Posted on: 2010-09-20 14:19 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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So! You accept and admit that Organized crime entering the nation is not created by the government, and accept that the changes the group undergoes in the nation are not the fault of the government at hand?|
Originally Posted by Venture
Like an underground resistance group striking out against the gendarmes and grabbing resources.
I'm an Italian from New Jersey. No, the US government imported the Mafia with a little piece of legislation called the 18th Amendment. Some historians have even argued that it was intentional. |
Then the Syndicate is not a creation of Praetoria. But the remnants of Organized Crime pooling their resources and using the latest "Tool" to make themselves stronger against the police force.
-Rachel-
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No, I rather expressly denied that.
| So! You accept and admit that Organized crime entering the nation is not created by the government, and accept that the changes the group undergoes in the nation are not the fault of the government at hand? |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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If his end goes is the extinction of humanity, then why did he step in to stop Hamidon at all?
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
BULLPOO!
Tyrant allowed cities to burn to serve his agenda. You're just making stuff up. Tyrant does not care about the people of Praetoria. He was ready to let half the City burn to prove a point. His end goal is simply for him to run everything. |
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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His end goal is to control humanity, and he's ready to franchise to other earths.
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Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
If his end goes is the extinction of humanity, then why did he step in to stop Hamidon at all?
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For those of you curious as to what I did there, I call it the argument of opposition.
The Mafia, before and After the Prohibition used different techniques. There are also different families in the Mafia than there originally were. But it is still the Mafia.
The Syndicate is a bunch of Organized Criminals. They joined together when it became apparent that they couldn't stand apart. They picked up Psychics as a tool and a new weapon against the police force. But they're still Organized Crime, they haven't changed a bit at their core.
It would be Hypocritical to say the Mafia is still the Mafia, when their tools and weapons have changed, but state that the Syndicate became something else when they added new tools and methods to their arsenal.
The point? The Government did not create the Syndicate. The Syndicate created the Syndicate.
-Rachel-
Google Sunshine Gardener "The Talisman".
Arc #6015 - Coming Unglued
"A good n00b-sauce is based on a good n00b-roux." - The Masque
It's interesting, because no matter where my characters begin (ideologically) in Praetoria, they tend to wind up in the same position, which is effectively Atlas Shrugged.
I'm not leaving for Primal to pave the way for the invasion or to extend the hand of diplomacy. I'm leaving because I want OUT of that madhouse, and once I'm through that portal, to hell with showboating Powers, enabling Responsibility, insane Crusaders, and complicit Wardens.
"I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides." Lord Vetinari, Guards! Guards! by Terry Pratchett.
I find it interesting that by the end of my first character's sojurn through Praetoria many of the Resistance contacts I dealt with were dead...usually by my hand:
Jackhammer: Dead
Hatchet: Dead (or in Mother's clutches)
Vagabond: (Who I felt slightly guilty about) Dead
Beholder: Returned to mother's clutches, basically dead
Wardog: Dead
Crow: Dead (I'd kill him many times over if I could)
Steffard: Accident, I shouldn't have tried to do the Cutter Cain arc coterminously with the save the seers. It cuts Steffard out of the contact chain immediately.
There may be an opportunity to go after Richochet, but I always go try and save my team in the Power arc she appears.
Loyalist side
Interrorgator Washington
Reese...I shouldn't even put him. He's a stain that won't go away.
The idea that you can inflict such losses on the Resistance, but don't really dint the Loyalists, is kind of disappointing in a way. But, I felt no guilt for the bulkof the gankings I delivered...except for Steffard, but that was an accident.
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Don't forget Warrant! He dies in one of the power arcs, too!|
Originally Posted by Divus
I find it interesting that by the end of my first character's sojurn through Praetoria many of the Resistance contacts I dealt with were dead...usually by my hand:
Jackhammer: Dead Hatchet: Dead (or in Mother's clutches) Vagabond: (Who I felt slightly guilty about) Dead Beholder: Returned to mother's clutches, basically dead Wardog: Dead Crow: Dead (I'd kill him many times over if I could) Steffard: Accident, I shouldn't have tried to do the Cutter Cain arc coterminously with the save the seers. It cuts Steffard out of the contact chain immediately. There may be an opportunity to go after Richochet, but I always go try and save my team in the Power arc she appears. Loyalist side Interrorgator Washington Reese...I shouldn't even put him. He's a stain that won't go away. The idea that you can inflict such losses on the Resistance, but don't really dint the Loyalists, is kind of disappointing in a way. But, I felt no guilt for the bulkof the gankings I delivered...except for Steffard, but that was an accident. |
-Rachel-
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Which is a real shame, because he's the one person on the Power arc who's out at least as much to save people as he is to make a name for himself, if not more so for the people (which is probably why Reese hates him so much.)|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Don't forget Warrant! He dies in one of the power arcs, too!
-Rachel- |
Incidentally and interestingly, I just finished that arc with an undercover Crusader that let Reese kill the team and went after Ricochet. They actually give you different dialogue (Reese, who's Reese?) before the arc and Reese's speech when you beat on him is different (he's no longer fighting for the second chance "she" gave him, but instead just trying to be Top Dog again. There's no mention of the mystery woman that helps him if you're pure Power.)
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I'm not talking about what other people do, I'm talking about what your character does in the Loyalist Responsibility path.|
Originally Posted by Venture
People who send their daughters to be turned into Borg drones aren't heroes.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Killing a group of people engaged in oppression is neither evil nor unjustified. It's absolutely heroic.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Protecting people by mass-murder, disappearances, torture, slavery and drugged water supplies? That's kinda like saying Arachnos protects the people of the Rogue Isles
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As much of a cool guy Warrant is, he's more Rogue than Hero, he's just helping you because he hates Reese, and on at least one occasion sends in the PPD on a suicide mission to soften the enemy up a bit so you can go in and 'save the day'
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Which is a real shame, because he's the one person on the Power arc who's out at least as much to save people as he is to make a name for himself, if not more so for the people (which is probably why Reese hates him so much.)
Incidentally and interestingly, I just finished that arc with an undercover Crusader that let Reese kill the team and went after Ricochet. They actually give you different dialogue (Reese, who's Reese?) before the arc and Reese's speech when you beat on him is different (he's no longer fighting for the second chance "she" gave him, but instead just trying to be Top Dog again. There's no mention of the mystery woman that helps him if you're pure Power.) |
And Ben has it right!
Neither side is -truly- heroic. One side wants everyone to obey all the laws and follow all the rules or die. The other wants everyone to make their own rules, or die.
It's a Fail/Fail situation! The only possible mitigating factors are the individual's own actions. Wardens cause wide-spread mayhem and chaos, Loyalists try to halt wide-spread mayhem and chaos by killing a smaller amount of people.
-Rachel-
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Do the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
And Ben has it right!
Neither side is -truly- heroic. One side wants everyone to obey all the laws and follow all the rules or die. The other wants everyone to make their own rules, or die. It's a Fail/Fail situation! The only possible mitigating factors are the individual's own actions. Wardens cause wide-spread mayhem and chaos, Loyalists try to halt wide-spread mayhem and chaos by killing a smaller amount of people. -Rachel- |
Although on a slightly more interesting note: why do the Resistance stick around? They could get the Marinos out of Praetoria and to some place apparently safe, why not move themselves out and put their efforts towards building a new and different society, independent and apathetic to on goings of Praetoria beyond if a citizen there wishes to move to another place.
Though I do see a few problems with this: For anyone who's played Bioshock, I could easily imagine the Syndicate stepping in and basically becoming like Atlas to the Resistance's Andrew Ryan. Calvin Scott WOULD NOT ACCEPT THIS, he wants his wife back, is the present leader of the Resisance, and would NEVER accept half or more of the Resistance to give up the revolution or Praetoria for a new land of their own ideals of freedom. The final obstacle would be that everyone might just accept Cole finding such a scenarion equally unacceptable and bringing out the Imperial Defense Force to invade the Resistance City and subdue it, since Cole is supposed to be the Emperor of all mankind, it might stand to reason attempts to secede from his rule would be considered a crime, regardless of how much or little it affects his own power and empire.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Because he want's loyal subjects to fawn over him and create statutes of him and have posters that say "Our Guardian" on it. I would think a cursory tour of Praetoria would have made that obvious.|
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
If his end goes is the extinction of humanity, then why did he step in to stop Hamidon at all?
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A good man would have stepped down once Hamidon is defeated. If his goal was simply to protect humanity, he can do that without running everything. In fact, like George Washington, he would have been celebrated for centuries had he done so.
No, he engineered his ascension to power and couldn't care less about the people so long as they worship him.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Eh, from his bio and what he says when you meet him, it seems that he's less especially power hungry, but that he truly believes that humanity cannot lead itself without being ultimately self-destructive, so according to his views, he'd have no choice but to lead.
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They can't do much worshiping if they're all dead.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Because he want's loyal subjects to fawn over him and create statutes of him and have posters that say "Our Guardian" on it. I would think a cursory tour of Praetoria would have made that obvious.
A good man would have stepped down once Hamidon is defeated. If his goal was simply to protect humanity, he can do that without running everything. In fact, like George Washington, he would have been celebrated for centuries had he done so. No, he engineered his ascension to power and couldn't care less about the people so long as they worship him. |
I do have to ask you something at this juncture, however: How much of what you have been saying is what you actually believe, and how much of it is 'in character'?
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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There's always an element of "in-character" because I'm trying to get into the head of someone who lives in Praetoria. On that basis, if it were ME, I would probably be an undercover Warden like Luke Larsen. I would probably try to talk the Crusaders out of some of their more over the top schemes. But not on the hysterical bases presented here. |
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
They can't do much worshiping if they're all dead.
I do have to ask you something at this juncture, however: How much of what you have been saying is what you actually believe, and how much of it is 'in character'? |
Taking this completely objectively, everyone in Praetoria has blood on their hands and a lot of it. I simply do not understand how you all can argue with a straight face that the Responsibility path people could ever be what anyone would call a "hero". I don't think the Crusaders are either just to be clear. They, like most characters in Praetoria are something neither hero nor villain. I would call them 'human' and leave it at that.
EDIT: Just to add, the defense lawyer in me feels the need to defend the Crusaders because I do think the devs presented a fair argument that any of the four paths could be considered justified. But people here seem to reflexively recoil at the extreme violence and cruelty that's on display in the Crusader arcs (while ignoring that the same or worse happens on and off camera on the Loyalist side).
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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When you broaden the terms that far you make everything the direct result of everything else that has ever happened.|
Originally Posted by Venture
For every action there is an equal but opposite reaction. [SIZE=2] |
You're blaming escalation on one half of the people involved and saying "Damn any other argument". Every action has an equal and opposite reaction is true. Mm Hmm. Yup. Which means the Syndicate helped to create itself. The actions of the government did not happen in a vaccuum after all.
However, organized crime existed BEFORE Praetoria existed. Cole's response to their existence may have ESCALATED the conflict, but it didn't -create- the conflict.
Want to go back further? The Syndicate is the fault of the US Government of Praetorian Earth, since that was the inception of the Mafia as we know it, today. Oh! And the various groups which spat on the Hmong.
You can go alllllll the way back the causal chain if you like, Venture. But the Syndicate were criminals before Praetoria was a twinkle in Cole's eye. The regime did not create the Syndicate. It just helped them Coalesce. The Mafia did not become something else after the Prohibition. They were still the Mafia.
-Rachel-
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The rub is that it's easy to come out of Praetoria with a hero/villain pov because it takes work to get a full picture. A player just levelling through will bypass a lot of content unless they take the effort to turn off xp. |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
There's always an element of "in-character" because I'm trying to get into the head of someone who lives in Praetoria. On that basis, if it were ME, I would probably be an undercover Warden like Luke Larsen. I would probably try to talk the Crusaders out of some of their more over the top schemes. But not on the hysterical bases presented here.
Taking this completely objectively, everyone in Praetoria has blood on their hands and a lot of it. I simply do not understand how you all can argue with a straight face that the Responsibility path people could ever be what anyone would call a "hero". I don't think the Crusaders are either just to be clear. They, like most characters in Praetoria are something neither hero nor villain. I would call them 'human' and leave it at that. |
Since that is almost sacrilege to gamers such people are considered insane even if they've gotten the "Knows the Truth" badge and no one listens.
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The most ruthless autocrats in our history supposed to be charismatic and reasonable in person, especially if they want you to be part of the ruling cadre as opposed to the poor smucks in the death chambers. |
Originally Posted by BenRGamer
Eh, from his bio and what he says when you meet him, it seems that he's less especially power hungry, but that he truly believes that humanity cannot lead itself without being ultimately self-destructive, so according to his views, he'd have no choice but to lead.
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And yes, Praetoria has death chambers. It's a badge spot in the Nova Praetoria underground.
I never said he was a good guy =P I'm just saying he doesn't want everyone dead.
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Of course not then his Enriche monopoly will be destroyed. |
Originally Posted by BenRGamer
I never said he was a good guy =P I'm just saying he doesn't want everyone dead.
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I admit it, I liked Cole when I met him...which is funny because I can't stand Statesman when I meet him in game. I bet it's intentional.
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No, you don't. And there are only two beers left in the house so I can't deal with the rest of this pile of epic fail.
| When you broaden the terms that far you make everything the direct result of everything else that has ever happened. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
Honestly... I hold neither responsible for the actions of those in their group. I hold the PC responsible only for his actions.
However when I see people saying that Responsible Loyalists are Villains because of their connection to Cole I feel obliged to point out that Wardens (by similar standards) are villains for being allied with Scott and the Crusaders.
"Oh! But the Wardens don't hurt or oppress anyone except for that one time in the Enriche plant!" and neither do the Responsible Loyalists, save that one time when they take in a criminal instead of helping him break out his daughter. Their only act of "Oppression" is through an omission of action, while the Wardens actively condemn the populace of Praetoria to pain and suffering.
Neither is -truly- heroic. Neither is -truly- villainous, through their own actions. If you back the camera up just a little they both become easily condemned by their allegiances.
-Rachel-