Emperor Cole at the end of the Power Loyalist Arc...
By
AnElfCalledMack,
Posted on: 2010-09-20 14:19 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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When the Stone Temple Pilots changed their name from Mighty Joe Young they did not magically become a new group of people. They still had played the songs from their Demo.|
Originally Posted by Venture
No, you don't. And there are only two beers left in the house so I can't deal with the rest of this pile of epic fail.
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When Kara's Flowers added a guitarist they renamed themselves Maroon 5. They are still the people they were before.
When Cole was crowned Emperor 25 years ago the remnants of organized crime joined together to become the Syndicate. 15 years ago when being Psychic became a faux pas and Tub Ci faked his death the Syndicate started sucking up psychics. It did not magically become a group of people put together by Cole and his Regime. They did not magically -stop- being criminals for 30 seconds before starting up again making themselves criminals AFTER the fact.
Please, Venture, put me on ignore. Because that's where you're going.
-Rachel-
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Yup. That was some good writing there. Also made me wonder if Statesman is a better constructed character than we've given them credit for.|
Originally Posted by Divus
I admit it, I liked Cole when I met him...which is funny because I can't stand Statesman when I meet him in game. I bet it's intentional.
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NAW!!!
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I lol'd|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Yup. That was some good writing there. Also made me wonder if Statesman is a better constructed character than we've given them credit for.
NAW!!! |
-Rachel-
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You're trying to make people who disagree with you "disappear"? that's not exactly going to help change your reputation as one of the more stiff-armed of Tyrant's stormtroopers |
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Please, Venture, put me on ignore. Because that's where you're going.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Explain, Golden Girl, EXPLAIN!
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Originally Posted by BenRGamer
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I'm not sure I can be explained |
Originally Posted by BenRGamer
Explain, Golden Girl, EXPLAIN!
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
I know, but I'm gonna keep throwin it up until I see her answer.
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I think that's the most logical thing I've seen her post.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I'm not sure I can be explained
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I agree. Why are people trying to attach primal earth labels like 'hero' to praetorian earth characters? Wardens are 'wardens', Powers are 'powers'. It is only when a character can join the heroes of Paragon, that have laws without tyranny that a 'hero' label becomes appropriate. A praetorian below level 20 CANNOT be a hero, but EVERY praetorian above level 20 can become a hero, no matter their past.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Taking this completely objectively, everyone in Praetoria has blood on their hands and a lot of it. I simply do not understand how you all can argue with a straight face that the Responsibility path people could ever be what anyone would call a "hero". I don't think the Crusaders are either just to be clear. They, like most characters in Praetoria are something neither hero nor villain. I would call them 'human' and leave it at that.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
EDIT: Just to add, the defense lawyer in me feels the need to defend the Crusaders because I do think the devs presented a fair argument that any of the four paths could be considered justified. But people here seem to reflexively recoil at the extreme violence and cruelty that's on display in the Crusader arcs (while ignoring that the same or worse happens on and off camera on the Loyalist side).
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I do not suffer from altitis, I enjoy every character of it.
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Actually they didn't. The Syndicate was created after the old gangs were put down 15 years ago -- right when the Seer program started.| When Cole was crowned Emperor 25 years ago the remnants of organized crime joined together to become the Syndicate. |
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| They did not magically -stop- being criminals for 30 seconds before starting up again making themselves criminals AFTER the fact. |
When you drop a glass, do you blame the manufacturer for your sudden need to sweep your floor? Actually, you probably do.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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On a completely unrelated note, I always wondered how that worked. You punish the population in an effort to make the population side with you? Isn't it just as likely to cause the population to hate you and want to see you dead? What am I missing?
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Originally Posted by Charcoal_EU
The crusaders are using the 'classic' patterns of insurgency. Attacking the population and trying to make the government do the same, via mass punishment and oppression. The plan is to push the 'normal' people far enough that they have to take sides in the conflict.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Originally Posted by BenRGamer
Explain, Golden Girl, EXPLAIN!
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I'm not sure I can be explained
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Battered Girlfriend syndrome?|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
On a completely unrelated note, I always wondered how that worked. You punish the population in an effort to make the population side with you? Isn't it just as likely to cause the population to hate you and want to see you dead? What am I missing?
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The Crusaders are hoping that if they just keep hitting you, you'll learn to love them.
-Rachel-
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The 'default state' of the population is to do nothing, just live their lives and obey the law. This benefits the government. So if the insurgents can make a part of the population join/actively support them at the cost of another, equally sized part actively supporting the government, it is still a net benefit to the insurgency. Especially as their superior human intelligence network (if they did not have one they would be already dead) lets them 'deal' with enemy sympathizers far more effectively.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
On a completely unrelated note, I always wondered how that worked. You punish the population in an effort to make the population side with you? Isn't it just as likely to cause the population to hate you and want to see you dead? What am I missing?
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Another aspect is that attacking the population makes them feel that the government cannot/will not defend them. So they may hate the insurgents but dare not act against them. The whole 'I saw nothing!' thing.
I do not suffer from altitis, I enjoy every character of it.
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There's the part I don't get. WHO would join them for blatant terrorism? Are they expecting someone would go "Boy, these fellows have BALLS to feed my neighbour to the Ghouls! I should join them!" I guess specifically malicious or dissatisfied people might join, but is that seriously what's being aimed for here? Because I highly doubt people at large will rise up to support the ones murdering them in cold blood.|
Originally Posted by Charcoal_EU
The 'default state' of the population is to do nothing, just live their lives and obey the law. This benefits the government. So if the insurgents can make a part of the population join/actively support them at the cost of another, equally sized part actively supporting the government, it is still a net benefit to the insurgency. Especially as their superior human intelligence network (if they did not have one they would be already dead) lets them 'deal' with enemy sympathizers far more effectively.
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| Another aspect is that attacking the population makes them feel that the government cannot/will not defend them. So they may hate the insurgents but dare not act against them. The whole 'I saw nothing!' thing. |
I'm not arguing morality or ethics here, or even good and evil. I'm arguing logic. Run-of-the-mill terrorism I get. They hate my country, I'm part of that country, therefore they hate me and want to kill me. It's not nice, but I can see the logic. But terrorists that want to get me on their side... I just can't see them being very successful when they go about that by killing me and my friends. I might indeed rise up in hatred and revenge, but it will be against THEM. I suppose if the point is to just force all-out unreasonable war to break out in Praetoria no matter the justification, I could see that, but... Eh.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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The insurgents get some folks by appealing to their shared ideals. There are some people who while sitting on the fence before, will not take the government's side in the inevitable crackdown. Remember the crackdown tends to prove the insurgents right. A just government only attempts to punish the insurgents. This shows the people that the government is serious about the rule of law. However, an oppressive state will tend towards collective punishment. When the government is punishing everyone whether they did anything or not, some folks will come to the conclusion that the insurgents were right all along.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I'm not arguing morality or ethics here, or even good and evil. I'm arguing logic. Run-of-the-mill terrorism I get. They hate my country, I'm part of that country, therefore they hate me and want to kill me. It's not nice, but I can see the logic. But terrorists that want to get me on their side... I just can't see them being very successful when they go about that by killing me and my friends. I might indeed rise up in hatred and revenge, but it will be against THEM. I suppose if the point is to just force all-out unreasonable war to break out in Praetoria no matter the justification, I could see that, but... Eh.
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The insurgents will cower some other folks. Some people will never move off the "default state". They'll never take sides. EITHER SIDE. They won't seek to lobby for the destruction of the insurgents or the government. They'll just live in fear and hope to ride out the violence.
Others will take the government's side. They'll speak out, get active. Only problem with that for them is that it makes them a "legitimate" target.
So no, you don't get everyone, but you get some. There are plenty of current examples I can think of to illustrate these points, but I don't want to get modsmacked.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Oh yeah, we're floating close to modsmocking territory. |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
The insurgents get some folks by appealing to their shared ideals. There are some people who while sitting on the fence before, will not take the government's side in the inevitable crackdown. Remember the crackdown tends to prove the insurgents right. A just government only attempts to punish the insurgents. This shows the people that the government is serious about the rule of law. However, an oppressive state will tend towards collective punishment. When the government is punishing everyone whether they did anything or not, some folks will come to the conclusion that the insurgents were right all along.
The insurgents will cower some other folks. Some people will never move off the "default state". They'll never take sides. EITHER SIDE. They won't seek to lobby for the destruction of the insurgents or the government. They'll just live in fear and hope to ride out the violence. Others will take the government's side. They'll speak out, get active. Only problem with that for them is that it makes them a "legitimate" target. So no, you don't get everyone, but you get some. There are plenty of current examples I can think of to illustrate these points, but I don't want to get modsmacked. |
FYI, an example is how Wardog came to the Crusaders. Here you have a history teacher. A man trying to teach kids about the world turned into a killer because the government decided to punish his family for HIS words.
Such an act by the government would turn many men into extremists. I literally cannot fathom what I would do if I lost my wife and little boys for a similar reason.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
I think the issue with Seers and Syndicate Psychics is one that we're lacking a lot of information on here. Let's think about the following...
-The syndicate is made entirely of people with "psychic potential"
-The syndicate includes the remnants of the Tsoo.
-The syndicate includes telekinetics and pyrokinetics in addition to telepaths
-The seers are all telepaths
-Arachnos seems to have no shortage of psychics.
-Fortunatas are considered to be of NATURAL origin
-Tub Ci says that Mr. Yin "unlocked within me my true potential."
-The syndicate seems to outnumber the seers significantly
I propose the following: psionic power is something that normal people can just have, and certain psions, such as Mr. Yin, are capable of making someone more psychic than they would have been naturally. On top of this, the syndicate is happy to recruit people of a much wider variety than Mother Mayhem is.
I may not be entirely right here, but it seems to me that even if the Syndicate is in part a group of psychics trying to not get their brains eaten, it also includes a great number of people who were not actually in any danger of being taken.
Now, lets add to this another note. While Mother Mayhem certainly crosses the line of what she does to psychics, think about what Psychics can do. Think about what the Syndicate can do with its psychics. Is it really in question that telepaths, more than pyromancers, martial arts masters, bioelectric eel-men, and a cowboy with a pair or revolvers need to be regulated by the government and kept under precise control?
Slavery is certainly bad, no denying that, but I can say, for one, that I would not feel very safe in a world where psychics of power could roam free uninhibited. I'd be wearing a tin-foil cap daily. Just think to yourself, if telepaths were real, wouldn't you want them carefully regulated by the government?
On a completely unrelated note, people keep talking about Enriche and drugging the population, and all that badness. Well, on the one hand, drugs are bad, sure, but... Enriche makes the world taste better. I don't know the /specific/ effect it has, but as far as I can tell, it's like drinking rainbows and hugs, making all the pain go away and letting you relax despite knowing that the sewers are full of dangerous terrorists.
But how strong is this drugging? We know that Enriche is the ONLY source of clean water, which means we need to assume that people like Luke Larson and Cleopatra are consuming it, and they seem to function against the Emperor. I propose thus that Enriche doesn't force anyone to be a loyalist, and it doesn't drastically change the functions of the brain, it just helps people relax and care a little less about the crazy that's happening in the world. Really, it seems to me that even if there WERE other forms of clean water, Enriche would still be the beverage of choice. Gods know I loves me some alcohol.
And finally, I just have to agree that the biggest problem with the Resistance is a lack of an endgame. From what I've seen in the arcs, their endgame plan seems to be
a) World in ruin
b) Syndicate Wins!
c) Martial Law under Longbow or Vanguard
d) "New Rogue Isles"
If someone can come up with another idea, I'd love to hear it, but remember that the U.S.A. had our Declaration of Independence before we won the war. I propose that if Calvin Scott really wants a new world, he and his circle of elites need to put together a New Declaration and post it around town. And it needs to include a method of keeping the Hamidon from eating everyone.
NPCs: A Single Method to Greatly Expand Bases
Primal Earth seems to cope with psychics without havng to become a fascist dictatorship
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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General terrorist attacks are only a part of the crusader activities. They spend about as much effort attacking PPD directly. You know, Ricochet mushrooming badger dens and so on. And it is not about killing in itself, though many crusaders enjoy it of course. The more PPD are killed the more they try to strike back. More searches and patrols, going 'full protocol' on any protesters, 'disappearing' suspected resistance sympathizers, etc. Inevitably they harm more innocents then actual resistance members. And every victim of the PPD (or their friends or relatives) is a potential resistance recruit.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
There's the part I don't get. WHO would join them for blatant terrorism? Are they expecting someone would go "Boy, these fellows have BALLS to feed my neighbour to the Ghouls! I should join them!" I guess specifically malicious or dissatisfied people might join, but is that seriously what's being aimed for here? Because I highly doubt people at large will rise up to support the ones murdering them in cold blood.
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Terrorist attacks force the government to 'do something', usually something that affects everyone and is resented by many. And at the same time such attacks make people think that the government cannot do anything to keep them safe.
I do not suffer from altitis, I enjoy every character of it.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Primal Earth seems to cope with psychics without havng to become a fascist dictatorship
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Really? Because Primal Earth, as far as I can tell, is a hellhole where criminals outnumber civilians, a woman can't walk down the street without getting her purse nabbed, and aliens and zombies fill the streets regularly. And the most dangerous woman in the world, Countess Crey, happens to be one of the world's strongest psychics. And then there's the Carnival.
Anybody who tries to argue that "Primal Earth does fine without resorting to Cole's tactics" hasn't been to Primal Earth lately. At least in Praetoria muggings are rare and civilians are rarely /randomly/ killed. Yes, some get 'disappeared' for doing stuff they knew they shouldn't be doing, but nobody gets attacked, killed, and sewn up as a walking corpse.
As far as I can tell, Praetoria is no more dangerous to Civilians than Paragon City.
NPCs: A Single Method to Greatly Expand Bases
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The mugging spawns have been replaced by PPD harassment spawns |
Originally Posted by CapnGeist
At least in Praetoria muggings are rare
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| and civilians are rarely /randomly/ killed. |
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| Yes, some get 'disappeared' for doing stuff they knew they shouldn't be doing |
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| As far as I can tell, Praetoria is no more dangerous to Civilians than Paragon City. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Seers aren't there for anyone's safety. The story arcs clearly state that Seers are part of a computer network that Tilman controls. She can tell them to not find people. The Destroyers are the prime example. They are Praetor Duncan's and Praetor White's unofficial terrorist group. They do the same theing the Resistance does, except they do it on Praetor's orders. The seer's ignore them on her orders. |
Originally Posted by CapnGeist
Really? Because Primal Earth, as far as I can tell, is a hellhole where criminals outnumber civilians, a woman can't walk down the street without getting her purse nabbed, and aliens and zombies fill the streets regularly. And the most dangerous woman in the world, Countess Crey, happens to be one of the world's strongest psychics. And then there's the Carnival.
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She also feeds on them psychically, drastically shortening their lifespans. The Seer's are just a buffet and amplification network for Tillman. There is nothing in Paragon City that compares. And between the registered Heroes and and the PPD Psi Corps, Longbow, and Hero Corps, Paragon city's psychics have plenty of options and outlets. A few villans are not an excuse to enslave a chunk of your population. Psychics are already liscensed and tracked in Paragon City, but they still have freedom to not be used as food.
Arrest the villains and move on.
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Anybody who tries to argue that "Primal Earth does fine without resorting to Cole's tactics" hasn't been to Primal Earth lately. At least in Praetoria muggings are rare and civilians are rarely /randomly/ killed. Yes, some get 'disappeared' for doing stuff they knew they shouldn't be doing, but nobody gets attacked, killed, and sewn up as a walking corpse. |
Scores of people are killed. There is a badge site marking the killing chambers in Nova Praetoria. There is no free thought. You think what Cole wants or you will die. Hell, even if you are loyal, you can wind up a mindless mutated monster in the bowels of Praetoria.
And Enriche. The chemical is in the water, but it is also in Enriche which is sold effectively double dosing anyone who obeys the advertising.
you know, two things jump out at me...1. the fact that we can have such a generally nuanced discussion about the underlying implications of the story really shows a good attention to the writing. that people can take so much away from what people often dismiss as "just a video-game" story is telling, you saw it with bioshock too, that's kind of good.
thought 2, hey, when the mods played through the content and saw how much moderate-able real world political discussion could sneak into game discussion, how many prepared to go beat up the writing team with baseball bats for making their jobs that much harder? 
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork