Fitness is dead; long live Fitness.
By
Aaron Islander,
Posted on: 2010-09-04 13:04 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Here's a thought.. In Issue 16 they added a 20% XP bonus to low levels, to address the low-level, pre-Fitness 'grind'.
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Now that all players are going to start out with Fitness straightaway, does it make sense to remove the 20% XP bonus at low levels?
| To go along with our new changes to sidekicking and exemplaring, we've made some adjustments to the experience awarded from minions, lieutenants and bosses in the level 5 to 24 range. In short these enemies are on average receiving a 20% experience and influence increase. This will slightly speed up the pace at which heroes and villains advance through the 5 to 24 range. |
It doesn't directly mention fitness there at all.
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Balancing a game around frustration is not a good idea imho. It is, after all, a game and is supposed to be fun.|
Originally Posted by Wytchven
What would be great is that if Athleticism unlocks (as a slottoble) at like level 10, Health at like level 15, and then Stamina at level 20 - any staggering would work really and as long as Stamina wasn't anything beyond level 20 no one could really complain. I dont think that they should award all of these as inherents at level 1. Would it be nice? Sure, so would having our level 32 powers at level 1, so by staggering it creates some balance, and should make us have to work just a little bit. We should feel more powerful as we get higher in levels, not have everything handed to us right up front. The earlier levels should still be a little more frustrating and we still should have that same feel at level 20 that, yes, this is still a milestone level.
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As for 20 being a milestone level:
1) You get a cape
2) You get another costume slot
3) MANY secondaries have very strong powers that unlock at 20. A good example: My new Dom I'm leveling just hit 22 and got Heavy Mallet, which he could have gotten at 20 if I hadn't taken Stamina. Heavy Mallet hits harder unslotted than my other attacks that have 2 damage enhancers slotted. That's a pretty huge benefit.
Giving us the Fitness pool at level 1 will not destroy the feeling of character progression. What it will destroy is the tedium of those early levels, which many people see as nothing more than a road-block to get past in order to start actually enjoying their new character.
Edited to add: The very fact that some people view 20 as being a milestone level just because that is when we could get Stamina is indicative of a severe problem with the game at the lower end.
Finally, paratroop ninjas and self soft-cap!
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My guess is no. If they're doing this now, they're very unlikely to be doing it based on what used to be like back before that 20% increase. I'm sure they're keenly aware of what leveling rates at various level ranges are, and I'm sure they have some idea what effect this will have on the low-end game. I can only think it has to be intentional.
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Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
Now that all players are going to start out with Fitness straightaway, does it make sense to remove the 20% XP bonus at low levels?
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I should maybe clarify, I don't care if they do or do not merge them, it is just something I can see happening.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
I really, really, really don't understand why people want Swift and Hurdle to be merged for this.
They're free powers. Having two of them costs you nothing. Having them merged means you have to spend additional slots if you want to slot both run and jump, unless you happen to be level 47+ and slot a Hamidon travel enhancer in them. |
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
omg......finally finally finally!!!!
I totally crit my pants.
It would be cool if they added a Power Pool to replace Fitness (as power picks, not in function), if not more than one.
Having to make choices is cool and adds variety, as long at it's a choice between two interesting powers, not a choice between interesting or "dull but required".
Well they did merge the markets despite the wailing and gnashing of Rp'ers.....im guessing frozen dinners hell and hath in some sentence....
Sacrifice some Rpers today
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i can only think of one RPer who had significant RP-related issues with the merge. Admittedly he was pretty vocal about it, but most RPers can separate out of character knowledge of game mechanics and in-character knowledge. |
Originally Posted by Captain_Freak
Well they did merge the markets despite the wailing and gnashing of Rp'ers.....im guessing frozen dinners hell and hath in some sentence....
Sacrifice some Rpers today |
But then again this was probably just you leaping at the chance to take a dig (no matter how tenuous the basis) at people who don't play just like you do. Good job.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
I see no RP problems with the market merge, and the devs did address the in-character questions it raises.
Hey Devs! Since your feeling so generous ATM how about....
1) Being able to tell your detective or contact (red side or whatever) what foes you wish to fight so you don't have to abandon/select/abandon till you get who you want.
2) Tell whatever detective that your talking too (or contact) that you wanna use him/her instead of the one that the game assigns you.
Also,
This change is great, there are a few characters that I gave up on cause the run till stamina made them no fun to play, forget the nay sayers!
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Because they haven't revealed yet that enemies are going to get a huge buff and will negate any wonderful buff that we're given.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Yet another open pool to help with soft-capping defense.
Why is it that lately when the devs make a decision that I *should* be happy about I find myself instead wondering just what the hell are they thinking? |
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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Well, they give us IO's and not the enemies so.... we should be ok!
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Originally Posted by Santorican
Because they haven't revealed yet that enemies are going to get a huge buff and will negate any wonderful buff that we're given.
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Ok, this is going in my sig.
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Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
... |
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Yet another open pool to help with soft-capping defense.
Why is it that lately when the devs make a decision that I *should* be happy about I find myself instead wondering just what the hell are they thinking? |
Because a game that is too easy stops being a game. The only reason you should be happy about this is if you felt the game was too hard before and you needed some help. If that is the case you just got it.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Most builds that are already maxed out have picked all the best low hanging fruit they can get in zero slots. Adding three more powers at their base slot just isn't likely to add that much more to previously maxed out builds. In general, adding a small amount to an already large amount doesn't have a dramatic effect. The exceptions are in things like defense and DR and a lot of builds will actually already have the powers that do the most here.
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Without even trying. Just take the stealth pool. You can now slot 3 luck of the gambler globals for 22.5% more recharge and you get stealth, invisibility and a phase power or that last 7.5 all for free. The fruit doesn't get closer to the ground without being a potato.
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On a maxed out build, many will already have 5 LoTG slotted and a stealth IO in their travel power. How exactly does this help in that case?|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
I Laughed at this.
Without even trying. Just take the stealth pool. You can now slot 3 luck of the gambler globals for 22.5% more recharge and you get stealth, invisibility and a phase power or that last 7.5 all for free. The fruit doesn't get closer to the ground without being a potato. |
edit to add. I like potatoes.
chances are, even if people have 5 LoTGs slotted already, this gives them the opportunity to move them around.
If I have a power thats got a LoTG and 5 other slots. Now I have a free power with LoTG in, a power with 5 slots, and a spare slot!
Or I chould just slot kismit +acc, the steadfast proc, or even GotA runspeed.
if i have all of those slotted, I again, can free up a slot from another power, and either put it elsewhere, or have another spare slot in that power for slotting for bonus'.
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Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
[*]Watching out for the Spinning Disco Portal of D00M!*
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Without even trying. Just take the stealth pool. You can now slot 3 luck of the gambler globals for 22.5% more recharge and you get stealth, invisibility and a phase power or that last 7.5 all for free. The fruit doesn't get closer to the ground without being a potato.
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phase should not accept defensive sets
About damn time.
"People who take offense to IC actions OOCly need to learn to differentiate between the two... Or change their damn meds."
I see both good and bad in this. Mostly good. I have to dig deep to find bad.
Sure, it changes the balance in the early levels, but unslotted these powers aren't that huge an effect. Slotted, well slots don't do a lot in the low levels, and even if they do, that's at the expense of something else not slotted. Not having to stop to rest so often, virtually gasping for breath, will improve the low level experience -- especially for new players.
I do think something is lost though. The ability to choose to have a character who's noticeably more athletic than the average superhero. Ninja run did this, for a start. Everyone and their grandmother is running and jumping like a ninja; even if it doesn't make much sense for their character as a concept. Now they'll all have swift and hurdle too, automatically. I'd give up other powers for the distinctiveness that swift and hurdle can give a toon. Sure, I can still slot them for effect, and since one or the other was a requirement for health or stamina, pretty much everyone had one of them anyway. It's a design critique I suppose; in practice it didn't work.
I think it might have been a better option to just take the prereqs out of the fitness pool -- when level 6 comes up, just take Stamina if you want it, and skip the other three.
All in all, I'm 99% happy with this. My criticisms are very, very minor. 
Well I know I'm resubbing when this change rolls out. 
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I apparently get to laugh at your idea of, and I quote myself, "previously maxed out builds". I can't add 3 LotGs to any "previously maxed out build" I have because I already have at least three in place already.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
I Laughed at this.
Without even trying. Just take the stealth pool. You can now slot 3 luck of the gambler globals for 22.5% more recharge and you get stealth, invisibility and a phase power or that last 7.5 all for free. The fruit doesn't get closer to the ground without being a potato. |
Math time!
Let's say I could add two LotGs, for a +15% global recharge. I typically run between 60% and 70% global recharge. I typically slot between 43% and 87% enhancement recharge. I typically have Hasten. Let's take the low end there, and assume no Hasten. If I have an attack with 15-second base recharge, 43% slotted +recharge and 60% global bonuses, adding 15% will change my recharge time on that power from 7.28s to 6.79s, a before/after ratio of 93% or a 7% decrease. If Hasten is in play, I instead go from 5.44s to 5.16s, a ratio of 95% or a 5% improvement. That's how much my 15s attack improves - my faster recharging ones get lower returns.
To be fair, lets pick a long recharging power - one with 650s base recharge time and 95% slotting. Without Hasten, 249s to 235s, or 6% reduction. With Hasten, 196s to 188s, or 4% reduction. (Edit: The Hasten example here is wrong, because this recharge time outlasts Hasten's duration. I don't have time to fix it now, but it's probably closer to 5-6% improvement.)
Is that nice? Yes, and you can be sure that I'll take advantage of things like that where I can, because I strive for maxed out performance like that. I don't accept that it represents a major leap in power. It's more incremental. I don't think anyone sane is suggesting that there's no power increase here, but I think it's being very much over-hyped by some.
And it'd help if you actually offered possible slotting options. Phase Shift doesn't accept set IOs at all.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
I Laughed at this.
Without even trying. Just take the stealth pool. You can now slot 3 luck of the gambler globals for 22.5% more recharge and you get stealth, invisibility and a phase power or that last 7.5 all for free. The fruit doesn't get closer to the ground without being a potato. |
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
I apparently get to laugh at your idea of, and I quote myself, "previously maxed out builds". I can't add 3 LotGs to any "previously maxed out build" I have because I already have at least three in place already.
Math time! Let's say I could add two LotGs, for a +15% global recharge. I typically run between 60% and 70% global recharge. I typically slot between 43% and 87% enhancement recharge. I typically have Hasten. Let's take the low end there, and assume no Hasten. If I have an attack with 15-second base recharge, 43% slotted +recharge and 60% global bonuses, adding 15% will change my recharge time on that power from 7.28s to 6.79s, a before/after ratio of 93% or a 7% decrease. If Hasten is in play, I instead go from 5.44s to 5.16s, a ratio of 95% or a 5% improvement. That's how much my 15s attack improves - my faster recharging ones get lower returns. To be fair, lets pick a long recharging power - one with 650s base recharge time and 95% slotting. Without Hasten, 249s to 235s, or 6% reduction. With Hasten, 196s to 188s, or 4% reduction. Is that nice? Yes, and you can be sure that I'll take advantage of things like that where I can, because I strive for maxed out performance like that. I don't accept that it represents a major leap in power. And it'd help if you actually offered possible slotting options. Phase Shift doesn't accept set IOs at all. |
Reading is fundamental Time: Phase Power OR that last 7.5 for free. Seeing as each power has 1 slot I doubted anyone would need slotting options.
And if you don't think this is big thing go take a look at the shield builds in the scrapper forums. There are many builds that can't squeeze in hasten and now they get it. Or you can just go take a look at the Perma Dom builds in the Dominator forum.
Yet another open pool to help with soft-capping defense.
Why is it that lately when the devs make a decision that I *should* be happy about I find myself instead wondering just what the hell are they thinking?
Be well, people of CoH.