Fitness is dead; long live Fitness.
By
Aaron Islander,
Posted on: 2010-09-04 13:04 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
Prophets shouldn't profit.|
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
Bill can I start calling you Nerf Prophet?
Global Defense IO nerf, Diminshing returns in PVE... What else is on the horizon?!?! I quake in fear at each predicion of the apocalypse. |
There's no apocalypse. Nerfs aren't some horrific thing to fear. They're just changes to the way we play.
If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, no big deal. Certainly wouldn't be the first time. I'm just a firm believer in what I learned a long time ago: Hope for the best, be prepared for the worst.
Be well, people of CoH.
I am a banker...
Right now I have a HUGE concentration risk in Defense builds, and you are foretelling a new world order where defense builds are going to be getting a massive hit in performance...
Highly worried.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
One should never keep all of one's eggs in a single basket.
Be well, people of CoH.
Time to start Hording respec recipies.
Elec/Ninjitsu Stalker
Spines/Ninjitsu Stalker
Traps/Ice Defender
Huntsman
Plant/Psi/Soul OverDom (205% recharge, should be safe)
Oh gawd.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
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Except, however, for the fact that -RES multiplies total damage (and cannot be boosted by enhancements).|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Rad Defender -Res is 30% go for the full 100% enhancement that works out to +60% off base damage
Rad Corruptor -22.5% or 45% off the fully enhanced. TA defender -20% or 40% off the fully enhanced Any set that doesn't have a double -res or a self stackable -res is going to be at a loss to the assaults. |
Team A has +80% DMG from stacked assault. A power at the ED cap now does (1 + 1 + 0.8) x (1) = 2.8x base damage.
Team B has no assault and -30% RES from debuffs. A power at the ED cap now does (2) x (1.3) = 2.6x base damage. (Nearly as much total damage as having everyone run assault.)
Fortunately, a defender with -RES and assault adds even more total damage.
Team C has +88.75% DMG (defender assault is 18.75%) and -30% RES from debuffs. A power at the ED cap now does (1 + 1 + 0.8875) x (1.3) = 3.75x base damage.
And, of course, all defender teams are silly:
Team D has +150% DMG and -30% at least double-stacked. Unslotted powers now do (2.5) x (1.6) = 4x base damage.
Hazel Black - Mind/Psi D
Stephanie Winters - Nightwidow
Jacqui Frost - Cold/Ice D
Jacqui Embers - Fire/Kin C
Simone Templar - Fire/MM B
Mallory Woods - Kin/Rad D
Sanguine Melody - Grav/Sonic C
Fumina Hara - Plant/Storm C
Nutmeg - Warshade
Lauren Wu - SS/WP B
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Honestly, I am hoping they make them Inherent Powers rather than just increasing move rates, jump height, Regen, and Recovery. If they are inherent, then they can be slotted, so your IOs could stay as they are and would offer the same benefits, including set bonuses. If they go with just increasing the base numbers, then there would be many builds that wouldn't even have powers where you could slot some of the stuff.
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Originally Posted by TwilightPhoenix
Wait... what's going to happen to the powers we slotted? A couple of my toons have one more more uniques and/or procs stuck in Health and Stamina and I seriously doubt I'm the only one. Three new pick would be cool, but it'd actually hurt the effectiveness of some toons if they can't slot those IOs anymore. I'm pretty sure my BS/SR would lose his effectively infinite endurance.
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- Garielle
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Originally Posted by Frosty_Femme
I said "ur" which is not a word. It's a sound dumb people make when you ask them to spell out "you are".
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The last exchange I had with you, you were complaining that the pug TF you were on wasn't able to move fast enough to satisfy you. Now +80% damage and the ability to have another member of the team that can split off and handle spawns on their own at good speed is insignificant for you.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
You did not even read what I wrote. When it comes to +80% damage being insignificant, I specifically mentioned WITHOUT kinetics. With kinetics it goes from insignificant to irrelevant. Here I'll quote it for you, because I doubt you could figure out how to find it yourself.
Which is it? +80% damage from assault lets my team split up so we can go through missions faster or +80% damage is a significant factor when we are all grouped up and fully benefiting from every teammates damage/buffs/debuffs? You can't seem to make up your mind. When I said it was insignificant on a team because of how they already work together so well you told me it let you split up. When I said splitting up doesn't work with Assault, you said it helps when they are together. You can, at this point, either just admit you were wrong or simply state that you feel I am undervaluing +80% damage on a big team of min/maxed builds. I'd recommend the former, but if you choose the latter, the reader can decide whose experience matches their own and move on from there. |
Glad to see you are consistent in your opinions.
As to whether +80% damage is undervalued by you, I think anyone who has been on a team that hasn't been able to defeat an enemy because they didn't have enough damage can decide that one for themselves.
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While I can see the issue here, I think you may be looking at it backwards. Right now, there are 3 powers that you don't have. You will get those three powers with 1 slot each. That's 1 more slot than you currently have in them. |
Originally Posted by Havoc_X
Hmm, interesting.
I see a problem though. If they allow us to slot the three inherent powers that are mentioned, It will make slotting even tighter on other powers. Most of my builds do not have any free slots right now. Adding three enhanceable powers will make it a little more difficult IMO. |
Even if you don't slot them, you are still ahead of where you are right now, so your build will not be any worse off than it currently is, and will in fact, be better off.
- Garielle
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Originally Posted by Frosty_Femme
I said "ur" which is not a word. It's a sound dumb people make when you ask them to spell out "you are".
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Originally Posted by Mezzosoprano
Except, however, for the fact that -RES multiplies total damage (and cannot be boosted by enhancements).
Team A has +80% DMG from stacked assault. A power at the ED cap now does (1 + 1 + 0.8) x (1) = 2.8x base damage. Team B has no assault and -30% RES from debuffs. A power at the ED cap now does (2) x (1.3) = 2.6x base damage. (Nearly as much total damage as having everyone run assault.) Fortunately, a defender with -RES and assault adds even more total damage. Edit: Realized that the point on the original post had gotten lost. Currently you take a defender with you for the AVs etc that you need the extra damage boost they can provide. Romulus, Reichsman, Ghost widow etc are all encounters that benefit much from having that extra boost. Post the change you will be able to achieve better than current levels of performance and gain more flexibility. Team C has +88.75% DMG (defender assault is 18.75%) and -30% RES from debuffs. A power at the ED cap now does (1 + 1 + 0.8875) x (1.3) = 3.75x base damage. And, of course, all defender teams are silly: Team D has +150% DMG and -30% at least double-stacked. Unslotted powers now do (2.5) x (1.6) = 4x base damage. |
Ehh that's pretty much what I said. Oh and a couple of minor issues you need to factor in the defenders lower base damage in the overall team damage, then you need come up with just how much that extra will save you against the lost flexibility from the defender needing to group more.
Either way the proliferation of the extra power choices is a major major shift for the game from easy to brainless.
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PUGs? I thought we were talking about power creep and making the game way easier for min/max builds?|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
The last exchange I had with you, you were complaining that the pug TF you were on wasn't able to move fast enough to satisfy you. Now +80% damage and the ability to have another member of the team that can split off and handle spawns on their own at good speed is insignificant for you.
Glad to see you are consistent in your opinions. |
If you want to talk about PUGs, I'll go back to an earlier statement, "Teams are going to run amok! OH NOES!!!!"
Edit: As an aside, you should really try to figure out what you are talking about. You have gone from min/maxed soloing all the way to PUG teams now. Do you even have a point or are you just typing to see letters on your screen?
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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That's why you play WillPower. |
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
One should never keep all of one's eggs in a single basket.
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Defense? Regen? Resistance?
!@#$ It, I'll just do everything.
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That's not pretty much what you said.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Ehh that's pretty much what I said.
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Let's assume that your current team make-up has -20% Res going on and no one has Assault and would get 80% +DMG from Assault. In fact, let's bump that up to +100%.
Everyone in your team is currently doing (1 + 1) * 1.2 = 2.4 x base damage. The resistance debuff provides you with 0.4x base damage.
You're then dropping the one whoever has the -Res and replace it with another Assault. You're now doing (1 + 1 + 0.8) * 1 = 2.8 x base damage. However, keeping the same debuffer in there, you would do (1 + 1 + 0.8) * 1.2 = 3.36 base damage, 20% more than without the -Resistance, or equal to 1.6 extra teammates (whole team damage on average). This time around, the resistance debuff provides you with 0.56x base damage.
If you were min maxing to begin with, I don't see where the logic is that now with damage buffs available in more builds dropping the -Resistance makes sense. After all, the plenty of +Damage available should make the -Res all the more appealing.
And that's leaving out the fact that the debuffer will bring much more to the team than their (possibly low) damage and a -20% Res Debuff if they have that much of a team player in them to pick up Assault.
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
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The current situation is no one on the team is running leadership with the possible exception of the defender. Lets say the defender is running assault |
Originally Posted by DSorrow
That's not pretty much what you said.
Let's assume that your current team make-up has -20% Res going on and no one has Assault and would get 80% +DMG from Assault. In fact, let's bump that up to +100%. Everyone in your team is currently doing (1 + 1) * 1.2 = 2.4 x base damage. The resistance debuff provides you with 0.4x base damage. You're then dropping the one whoever has the -Res and replace it with another Assault. You're now doing (1 + 1 + 0.8) * 1 = 2.8 x base damage. However, keeping the same debuffer in there, you would do (1 + 1 + 0.8) * 1.2 = 3.36 base damage, 20% more than without the -Resistance, or equal to 1.6 extra teammates (whole team damage on average). This time around, the resistance debuff provides you with 0.56x base damage. If you were min maxing to begin with, I don't see where the logic is that now with damage buffs available in more builds dropping the -Resistance makes sense. After all, the plenty of +Damage available should make the -Res all the more appealing. And that's leaving out the fact that the debuffer will bring much more to the team than their (possibly low) damage and a -20% Res Debuff if they have that much of a team player in them to pick up Assault. |
That gives us (1+.188)*1.3= 1.54 damage
VS the revised 1.8 assumes everyone has the worst assault.
Clearly the team under the revised situation is pulling ahead and that is without the debuffer.
What I think you are saying is under the revised situation the team with the revised debuffer is even more powerful. I am not disputing that, what I am saying is that if the challenges remain the same the debuffer that was needed for the hard challenges is now optional, and you will likely gain more from extra flexibility in everything else.
The point from Strato Nexus that I was countering is that +80% damage is unimportant. As things stand there are things in the game where team construction and making certain that you have the minimum requirements to win are important well for maxed out builds that composition will be much simpler. Just for example Ghost Widow in the STF no longer so much a stumbling point. Need an emp to tank Lord Recluce ? Just pop the tank full of purples and oranges the rest of the team will have zerged the towers before he runs out.
I find myself agreeing with Bill's prophecies. There is power creepage happening and it will be dealt with at some point
I'm eventually anticipating (or suggesting) a sort of ED-type effect, but dealing with Mult. players with team-buffing powers in a similar scaling effect as Enhancment effects work with Powers.
Let's say you have a player giving the team a particular buff (ex: an FF Defender giving everyone defense). A second FF Defender (or any other AT that gives a team Defense Bonus) joins. Both Buffers would see their 'buffage' numbers drop a bit. Still be more buff than if just one of them, but no longer twice as much. Add a 3rd buffer, and you'd see even more decrease in each individuals effect, even as the teams overall effect grows (just not as much as before). I could see this happening in such a way that having more than 3 ATs that give the same team buff will be seen a sort of a waste... Similiar to how more than 3 enhancements of the same type results in diminishing returns for a power.
This could effect many global team buffs, incl all the Leadership toggles.
Personally, I wouldn't be against this. It'd certainly make teams want to diversify a bit more. And those all-Defender teams that break the game would be history.
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you have 9 50's without stamina????????|
Originally Posted by Evilmeister
I just realized this change will improve more of my characters than I thought - apparently I have nine 50's without Stamina and a couple on their way up. That's roughly a third of my characters at max level with completed/almost completed builds - it'll be interesting to see what changes it'll mean in gameplay.
So, as a general question - how large portion of your characters will get Fitness for the first time? |
you poor poor masochistic bast@rd, why would you do that to yourself...... not to mention 9 TIMES?!
do me a favor, call your mom, ask her if she loves you, when she says yes, believe her, and stop hatin' on yourself.
Oh yeah, that was the time that girl got her whatchamacallit stuck in that guys dooblickitz and then what his name did that thing with the lizards and it cleared right up.
screw your joke, i want "FREEM"
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I think it would be the end ofall the toons i posted in red.
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Originally Posted by Warkupo
That's why you play WillPower.
Defense? Regen? Resistance? !@#$ It, I'll just do everything. |
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
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Why would ninjitsu, SR or ice armor be hurt all that much? They all start with a huge chunk of defense to work off of.|
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
I think it would be the end ofall the toons i posted in red.
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The only builds that I see feeling the hit are the ones that have no base defense but are softcapped to S/L or melee or ranged anyway. They're the ones that should expect the beatdown.
The real defense based sets will just have to work a bit harder to get to the softcap.
Be well, people of CoH.
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I just barely b|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Why would ninjitsu, SR or ice armor be hurt all that much? They all start with a huge chunk of defense to work off of.
The only builds that I see feeling the hit are the ones that have no base defense but are softcapped to S/L or melee or ranged anyway. They're the ones that should expect the beatdown. The real defense based sets will just have to work a bit harder to get to the softcap. |
hit soft cap with the ninja. melee and ranged.
Yeah yeah super reflexes is awesome....
I think its boring.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
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/checks CoD for defense values on ninjitsu|
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
I just barely b
hit soft cap with the ninja. melee and ranged. Yeah yeah super reflexes is awesome.... I think its boring. |
13.875 melee
13.875 range, aoe
Ohhhhh, shows how often I mess with stalkers. Nin doesn't have the 5.625% from passives to work with. Good thing it has a self-heal, caltrops, placate and blinding powder.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Don't be coy. You know damn well what losing softcap will mean for top end performance.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
/checks CoD for defense values on ninjitsu
13.875 melee 13.875 range, aoe Ohhhhh, shows how often I mess with stalkers. Nin doesn't have the 5.625% from passives to work with. Good thing it has a self-heal, caltrops, placate and blinding powder. |
It might be "good enough" for average players, but i know you wouldn't be happy with it, don't expect me to be happy with it.
Edit: Placate is a primary power /nitpick.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
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I don't. As I said, the defense based sets will have to work harder to get there, but they'll still be able to.|
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
Don't be coy. You know damn well what losing softcap will mean for top end performance.
It might be "good enough" for average players, bit i know you wouldn't be happy with it, don't expect me to be happy with it. |
There's a huge difference between starting out with 21.46 defense to m/r/a and starting out with nothing.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Don't forget hide (Wow, you really hate stalkers |
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I don't. As I said, the defense based sets will have to work harder to get there, but they'll still be able to.
There's a huge difference between starting out with 21.46 defense to m/r/a and starting out with nothing. |
)I am an overreactor, and it depends on the severity of the nerfs of course.
Highly worried.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
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I still consider them to be blappers that want to be scrappers.
| Wow, you really hate stalkers |
Be well, people of CoH.
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The above is only correct if no one on the team slots +DMG enhancers. |
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
The current situation is no one on the team is running leadership with the possible exception of the defender. Lets say the defender is running assault
That gives us (1+.188)*1.3= 1.54 damage VS the revised 1.8 assumes everyone has the worst assault. Clearly the team under the revised situation is pulling ahead and that is without the debuffer. |
Let's look at it another way. Team of 7 (excluding our debuffing defender) does D base damage, no one runs assault, everyone slots 3 SOs of damage (essentially +100%), and no debuffs are available.
Without the defender:
Total damage = (1 + 1) * D = 2D
Adding the defender, with base damage d, assault, and -30% RES:
Total damage = (1 + 1 + 0.188) * (D + d) * (1.3) = 2.84D + 2.84d
Adding the defender has added 0.84D + 2.84d damage. Even if the defender's personal damage (d) is insignificant, the defender has boosted the team's overall damage from 2D to 2.84D, a 42% increase in total damage.
Adding a blaster, with base damage 2d:
Total damage = (1 + 1) * (D + 2d) = 2D + 4d
Even if the blaster has 2x the base damage of the defender, adding that blaster only adds more damage if 0.84D + 2.84d < 4d or 2d > 1.45D. That is, only if the blaster's base damage is roughly one and a half times more than the entire rest of the team, combined.
This is why defenders are considers force multipliers.
If everyone on both teams runs assault, the damage totals are:
Defender: (1 + 1 + 0.888) * (D + d) * (1.3) = 3.75D + 3.75d
Blaster: (1 + 1 + 0.8) * (D + 2d) = 2.8D + 5.6d
The team with the blaster will only do more damage if the blaster's base damage is slightly greater than the base damage of the rest of the team.
Hazel Black - Mind/Psi D
Stephanie Winters - Nightwidow
Jacqui Frost - Cold/Ice D
Jacqui Embers - Fire/Kin C
Simone Templar - Fire/MM B
Mallory Woods - Kin/Rad D
Sanguine Melody - Grav/Sonic C
Fumina Hara - Plant/Storm C
Nutmeg - Warshade
Lauren Wu - SS/WP B
Global Defense IO nerf,
Diminshing returns in PVE...
What else is on the horizon?!?!
I quake in fear at each predicion of the apocalypse.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!