Fitness is dead; long live Fitness.
By
Aaron Islander,
Posted on: 2010-09-04 13:04 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Iknow this has probably already been said, but frankly this doesnt excite me to much.
Even if they are slottable, on almost all my toons i use maybe 2-4 slots on fitness. And i dont see this changing reguardless of if its inherent or not. If i need to slot stamina im slotting it. So now basicly i get 3 more power choices, but really have no slots for them without totally reworking or nerfing other powers to make room for them. So frankly its like thanks for giving it to us, but i dont see this changing any of my toons drasticly. Those 3 extra powers are likely going to be QoL powers like teleport alley or something like that rather then anything useful due to lack of support for them.
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I have a feeling Leadership is going to be the new Fitness.
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Originally Posted by QuiJon
Iknow this has probably already been said, but frankly this doesnt excite me to much.
Even if they are slottable, on almost all my toons i use maybe 2-4 slots on fitness. And i dont see this changing reguardless of if its inherent or not. If i need to slot stamina im slotting it. So now basicly i get 3 more power choices, but really have no slots for them without totally reworking or nerfing other powers to make room for them. So frankly its like thanks for giving it to us, but i dont see this changing any of my toons drasticly. Those 3 extra powers are likely going to be QoL powers like teleport alley or something like that rather then anything useful due to lack of support for them. |
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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/Exactly. This.
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Originally Posted by macskull
I have a feeling Leadership is going to be the new Fitness.
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Ping me at @Psion or Psion2.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Well... honestly the VEATS needed a nerf before this happened anyway.
But the issue you see again and again and again in builds is that you can double-dip by taking Defense based powers and slotting LoTG. It may finally be time to make that unique (as much as I'd cry about it). |
There are some sets that can naturally slot 5 of these already, how is increasing the number of builds that dont live in these sets that can slot these too much of a problem. People who have a build with 5 in already wont get any more powerful, but people who, because of their build could only fit in 2 so far, could now go up to 5.
But personally I think taking the Stealth pool just for LotGs would be a great loss, and not something I would do unless I REALLY needed those LoTGs.
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Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
[*]Watching out for the Spinning Disco Portal of D00M!*
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They could move them into the new powers freeing up the slot for something else. |
Originally Posted by Mega_Jamie
There are some sets that can naturally slot 5 of these already, how is increasing the number of builds that dont live in these sets that can slot these too much of a problem. People who have a build with 5 in already wont get any more powerful, but people who, because of their build could only fit in 2 so far, could now go up to 5.
But personally I think taking the Stealth pool just for LotGs would be a great loss, and not something I would do unless I REALLY needed those LoTGs. |
I'm ambivilant about this. Yup, will make things easier, but I was doing OK already. My MM will thank the Devs though. Couldn't take fitness as I had too many Power Pools already. Thats the biggest boon for me.
My three Staminaless characters are looking forward to this the most - for them this change is like getting a Numina and Miracle unique for free on top of what they're already got, and that's before slotting (I'd probably only use the default slots for those characters since they're already fairly self-sufficient). Then I also get Swift, Hurdle, and Health for free...
Only thing I'm not looking forward to is completely rebuilding 50+ characters. Been tooling around with adding Fitness as inherent in Mids but no real luck so far.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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It is one thing when a few teams are doing that kind of thing its another when most are. Seeing as you want to use BillZ as an example you might want to read the posts where he gives concrete examples of improvements he gets with his builds when you say there is no low hanging fruit with this change.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
This is bigtime hyperbole.
On the solo side of things, only a very few characters can solo at those settings today, and only against some things. Primarily, they are softcapped characters. If they want to stomp around the game against arbitrary foe factions, they're basically SR, and really expensive Shield builds, because those are the only ones who can get the Defense Debuff Resistance to stand impassive in the face of things like Cimerorans or Vanguard. Even BillZ doesn't waltz over +4/x8 Arachnos. On the team side of things, people already walk over content. You don't need these changes to hit the hard defense cap at 50. You just need a team with multiple sources of strong defense buffs, which are regularly available from Cold Domination, Force Fields and Villain epic ATs, with the occasional Vengeance tossed in. Will more people achieve this now? Quite possibly. But if we don't need +5 now for teams, there's no way in hell we're going to need it tomorrow. (My opinion is that we could use +5 now, and these changes are relatively minor to the people who would use that setting today.) |
I just realized this change will improve more of my characters than I thought - apparently I have nine 50's without Stamina and a couple on their way up. That's roughly a third of my characters at max level with completed/almost completed builds - it'll be interesting to see what changes it'll mean in gameplay.
So, as a general question - how large portion of your characters will get Fitness for the first time?
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I have 5 LotGs in my main right now. Pretty easy to do when you have 8 defense granting powers in the build.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Well... honestly the VEATS needed a nerf before this happened anyway.
But the issue you see again and again and again in builds is that you can double-dip by taking Defense based powers and slotting LoTG. It may finally be time to make that unique (as much as I'd cry about it). |
That said, this is precisely the type of thing I'm concerned about. Making the LotG +recharge a unique would be a double nerf to my build as I'd not only lose 30% global recharge but I'd also lose the defense buff % it adds to the 5 powers I have it slotted in.
Notice, however, that I stated "type of thing." I don't see the devs bothering with the LotG. I do see setIO defense buffs getting hit across the board, though.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
It is one thing when a few teams are doing that kind of thing its another when most are. Seeing as you want to use BillZ as an example you might want to read the posts where he gives concrete examples of improvements he gets with his builds when you say there is no low hanging fruit with this change.
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What WILL help against arachnos, a group I *CAN* solo against at +4/x8 although it can be time consuming at the moment, will be the heightened regen and damage output I'll have after this change goes through.
It's a truly simple concept: Make fitness inherent, I get another pool and three more powers. I become stronger. The foes I can fight NOW become easier. The game becomes easier.
I'm unsure why I have to repeat this fact.
With I-19 we're supposed to be getting more difficult content. If this content is available to me as a soloist, then the power creep will have a counter. If this new content is completely gated off from soloists, then I'll be left stomping the crap out of ALL the enemy groups once I get a handle on how the new incarnate abilities will be affecting my build.
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| So, as a general question - how large portion of your characters will get Fitness for the first time? |
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Yup !!
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Originally Posted by macskull
I have a feeling Leadership is going to be the new Fitness.
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The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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You might want to go back and try re-reading what I said.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
It is one thing when a few teams are doing that kind of thing its another when most are. Seeing as you want to use BillZ as an example you might want to read the posts where he gives concrete examples of improvements he gets with his builds when you say there is no low hanging fruit with this change.
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I said all the low-hanging fruit that would transform a character's performance was already picked on a "maxed out build". If it hasn't been picked already, it's very unlikely (but not impossible) that the character is currently "maxed out".
If something is going to absolutely transform how your character plays, and you're a min/maxer, you damn well find a way to fit it in. Yes, that usually means you make a sacrifice somewhere else - you sacrifice things that are less transformative. A good min/maxer drops the thing that will have the least impact on the character through the loss.
Yes, this change means that some of those things min/maxers couldn't fit in will now come back into the builds, though probably with limited slotting. By the description above, those things will not be transformative or they would not have been dropped in the first place.
I have consistently made exception for people with high but not softcapped defense who can now fit in more defense, because small incremental changes in high defense can become transformative changes in survival.
I am not declaring that builds will not improve. My builds will improve. I am saying that the peak achievable performance will improve, but not by by a whole lot. BillZ's examples are, in fact, concrete evidence of this. Yes, his builds are improving. No, they are not improving by leaps and bounds.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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In before Johnny_Butane takes credit for this change.
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Originally Posted by enrious2
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the biggest drawback to this.
It may encourage Ultimo_ to continue posting. |
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Originally Posted by macskull
I have a feeling Leadership is going to be the new Fitness.
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Originally Posted by Psion1
/Exactly. This.
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Originally Posted by Airhammer
Yup !!
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
I am not declaring that builds will not improve. My builds will improve. I am saying that the peak achievable performance will improve, but not by by a whole lot. BillZ's examples are, in fact, concrete evidence of this. Yes, his builds are improving. No, they are not improving by leaps and bounds.
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Be well, people of CoH.
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I don't consider including the +Recharge Alpha slot to be part of this change. Unless I misread your posts, the delta without it is much smaller.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
You don't consider an increase of 36 DPS to be a leap? Interesting.
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Edit: I'd also like to point out that you speak of Elude as though you could perma it. Not including the Alpha slot, what's the average recharge your build is looking at? To get Elude to 2/3 uptime (180s on, 90s off) I'm getting that you'd need about +170% global.
Edit2: The reason I want to exclude the alpha slot is that it's probably supposed to create a break in your character's power relative to existing PvE almost by definition. It's the kickoff down a road to new, supposedly (much?) harder PvE foes.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
For my scrappers, brutes, and tanks;
Instead of hurdle, health, and stamina before twenty:
Kick/punch, Tough, and Weave....
Whats the earliest you can softcap an INV tank
So my scraps, brutes and blappers can now dip into the Fighting pool much sooner o yesss 
I'm not sure how feel about this. It just my reaction to change in this game is often negative. I just can't beleive that the devs are just going to give us the Fitness powers while not taking something away. (sorry devs) This isn't a nerf to one power, or changing an archetype inherent. This changes EVERY archetype. I think my fears are warranted.
Cue the paranoid hypothesises:
Are you buffing Stamina? If so does that mean a nerf of certain unique IO's. I don't want to see of my toggle-heavy just barely endurance mangagable toons die because, while everyone else is geting more endurance, mine are getting less cause you nerfed Miracle. Unless you are trying to completely eliminate the need for those enhancements by giving Stamina a big boost, don't kill them please.
While this does open things up to take another power pool or other primary/secondary/epic powers, how exactly do we utilize them with the current number slots we're give right now? I'm hoping we get a few more slots to put into these. But then, if we don't get extra slots does this cause it to degenerate into one-slotting unique IO's. Namely LoTG's in the Concealment pool, which has already been brought up. This is legitmate fear because well, nerfing LotG's could cause a lot of Dominators to vanish honestly, and cue the market crash in 3...2...1...
I'd like to think you're doing this out of the kindness of your hearts, but I secretly beleive you enjoy watching us dance like silly puppets on stage.
Now if you excuse me, I ran out of tinfoil hats.
I find it incredibly unlikely that recovery tools will be nerfed as a result of this.
If anything gets changed/nerfed, and I'm not at all convinced it will, I expect it to be something in the defense realm, or something tangentially related to that.
Very strong +Recovery is necessary but not sufficient to solo on extreme difficulty levels, like +4/x8. Without careful cherry picking of foes, the only builds that can do that all have extremely high +defense.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I don't have hasten in my build right now due to the lack of another available power pool.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I don't consider including the +Recharge Alpha slot to be part of this change. Unless I misread your posts, the delta without it is much smaller.
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This change allows me to add it. Even without considering the alpha slot, I'll be able to run the followup, slash, focus chain with a slight pause before followup finishes recharge. Having seen that my disgust at pauses in attack chains can be overcome by substantial increases in DPS, I think I'll be ok with that.
The value of that pause when not considering the alpha slot is about .3 seconds. This will reduce the DPS boost some from that 239 value, but not by much. Leaving out assault will bump it down slightly as well. I'd tell you the exact value if I had remembered to turn back on my rig at home this morning.
If you absolutely must have the complete rundown on what this change will be doing to my main's damage output, I'll be happy to work it out later in the day but here's the current plan:
Current build:
Claws powers chosen: All minus swipe and confront
SR powers chosen: All minus elude
Boxing, Tough, Weave
Combat Jumping
Fly
Swift, Health, Stamina
Conserve Power
I-19 build:
Claws: All minus strike and confront
SR: All (+1 power)
Boxing, Tough, Weave
Combat Jumping
Fly
Hasten (+1 power)
Conserve Power, Physical Perfection (+1 power)
I'll need to migrate 2 slots from the current build over to hasten. No other slot changes will need to occur, although they probably will occur anyway to maximize the build. Yes, hasten will be a better choice for my build than assault. If I wanted to get truly silly, I could drop fly and combat jumping and replace them with maneuvers and assault. There is a very good chance that I will drop combat jumping for assault. We'll see what I work out.
End outcome? A 30+ DPS increase in single target DPS. More regen. More recovery. More defense when needed against massive tohit buffs or defense debuffs. All without considering incarnate abilities and all because the devs want the 1-20 game to be a more enjoyable experience.
EDIT: Answers to your edits:
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Edit: I'd also like to point out that you speak of Elude as though you could perma it. Not including the Alpha slot, what's the average recharge your build is looking at? To get Elude to 2/3 uptime (180s on, 90s off) I'm getting that you'd need about +170% global. Edit2: The reason I want to exclude the alpha slot is that it's probably supposed to create a break in your character's power relative to existing PvE almost by definition. It's the kickoff down a road to new, supposedly (much?) harder PvE foes. |
As for elude, single slotted with a basic level 50 IO grants... crap, don't even have Mids on hand.. .40% recharge? Plus the 102.5% global I currently have, +70 from hasten... 1000/3.125 = 320 seconds. 180 up 140 down. And only needed during extremely rough patches. The crash will be easily avoided by a well timed blue plus conserve power.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Like Super Reflexes..........just great. How can my ninja be ninja-like when he's not softcapped?
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
I find it incredibly unlikely that recovery tools will be nerfed as a result of this.
If anything gets changed/nerfed, and I'm not at all convinced it will, I expect it to be something in the defense realm, or something tangentially related to that. Very strong +Recovery is necessary but not sufficient to solo on extreme difficulty levels, like +4/x8. Without careful cherry picking of foes, the only builds that can do that all have extremely high +defense. |
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Right now I have a blaster build that has 160% recharge 1500+ hp and softcapped SL defense. This is pretty maxed out as things stand, when these changes come through it gets an additional 15% recharge, it goes beyond the softcap, and does more damage when needed, also I now have vengeance for pug tfs. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
You might want to go back and try re-reading what I said.
I said all the low-hanging fruit that would transform a character's performance was already picked on a "maxed out build". If it hasn't been picked already, it's very unlikely (but not impossible) that the character is currently "maxed out". If something is going to absolutely transform how your character plays, and you're a min/maxer, you damn well find a way to fit it in. Yes, that usually means you make a sacrifice somewhere else - you sacrifice things that are less transformative. A good min/maxer drops the thing that will have the least impact on the character through the loss. Yes, this change means that some of those things min/maxers couldn't fit in will now come back into the builds, though probably with limited slotting. By the description above, those things will not be transformative or they would not have been dropped in the first place. I have consistently made exception for people with high but not softcapped defense who can now fit in more defense, because small incremental changes in high defense can become transformative changes in survival. I am not declaring that builds will not improve. My builds will improve. I am saying that the peak achievable performance will improve, but not by by a whole lot. BillZ's examples are, in fact, concrete evidence of this. Yes, his builds are improving. No, they are not improving by leaps and bounds. |
That character was maxed out now its insanely maxed out.
Your comment about fitting it in if you feel its important is hardly valid. You only have 4 power pool picks and the ancil/patrons, now you have in effect a fifth.
Just another example I have an SR brute that couldn't fit in a patron pool well I19 they are getting physical perfection and that will take them into easy mode.
Just imagine a SR/Dark getting that as an extra we are talking about fricking monsters on the top end.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I don't have hasten in my build right now due to the lack of another available power pool.
This change allows me to add it. |
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Current build: Claws powers chosen: All minus swipe and confront SR powers chosen: All minus elude Boxing, Tough, Weave Combat Jumping Fly Swift, Health, Stamina Conserve Power I-19 build: Claws: All minus strike and confront SR: All (+1 power) Boxing, Tough, Weave Combat Jumping Fly Hasten (+1 power) Conserve Power, Physical Perfection (+1 power) |
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| Incarnate abilities will function in level 50 content. This means the LRSF, STF, LGTF, and whatever else that can be run at level 50. Existing content. |
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| As for elude, single slotted with a basic level 50 IO grants... crap, don't even have Mids on hand.. .40% recharge? Plus the 102.5% global I currently have, +70 from hasten... 1000/3.125 = 320 seconds. 180 up 140 down. And only needed during extremely rough patches. The crash will be easily avoided by a well timed blue plus conserve power. |
It's a bit of an aside, but I can tell you that currently I can't get Unstoppable's end crash to go away with Conserve power. I mean I can get back in the fight plenty fast, but it seems to consistently drop my toggles. I'm not saying it's going to be a big slow down, but I do think you'll want to time the crash outside of combat.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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SR, and for that matter ninjitsu, don't need much help from IOs to hit the softcap.|
Originally Posted by ChaosAngelGeno
Like Super Reflexes..........just great. How can my ninja be ninja-like when he's not softcapped?
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For SR:
13.875 from toggles
5.625 from passives
1.875 from combat jumping
2.275 from maneuvers
3.75 from weave
Total unenhanced: 27.4
Total enhanced: 42.744
Add on the +3 from the steadfast in tough and you're done.
Be well, people of CoH.
Well... honestly the VEATS needed a nerf before this happened anyway.
But the issue you see again and again and again in builds is that you can double-dip by taking Defense based powers and slotting LoTG. It may finally be time to make that unique (as much as I'd cry about it).