Scott Pilgrim vs The World....
By
Acemace,
Posted on: 2010-08-12 14:03 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
Ok, I finally got around to watching this on DVD last night. I can fully understand why this movie flopped at the box office and with (most) critics. It's NOT because they didn't get the inside gamer references and nerd-lore. It's NOT because of the over-the-top action scenes being out of place in a meet-cute romantic comedy.
The movie failed for two basic reasons, the main two characters, Scott and Ramona. There is nothing desirable/sympathetic about either of these two twain wrecks. To connect with audiences, a romantic comedy needs at least one of the two protagonists to be marginally likable, in order to achieve a level of emotional investment by the audience sufficient for them to give a #$&@ about the outcome. That emotional investment in the characters by the audience is the single most important ingredient in establishing a romantic dynamic. Both Scott and Ramona are thoughtless jerks. The "happy" ending (which blows the chance for story-level redemption by having Scott emotionally curbstomp the only sympathetic character in the film) is a stab in the face to anyone with an actual sense of romanticism (or adult behavior). Of COURSE this movie failed. What were they thinking?
It looked cool though.
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Rotten Tomatoes' assessment (81%) begs to differ. As for the box office, it grossed over $47M worldwide, which on a budget of $60M is what Hollywood calls a "disappointment" these days while waiting for the DVD revenues to kick in. For a real flop, check out the earnings ratio for the critically reviled Jonah Hex, another summer comic book movie: less than $11M on a $47M budget, with little prospect of secondary revenues.|
Originally Posted by Chazzmatazz
Ok, I finally got around to watching this on DVD last night. I can fully understand why this movie flopped at the box office and with (most) critics.
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| The movie failed for two basic reasons, the main two characters, Scott and Ramona. There is nothing desirable/sympathetic about either of these two twain wrecks. To connect with audiences, a romantic comedy needs at least one of the two protagonists to be marginally likable, in order to achieve a level of emotional investment by the audience sufficient for them to give a #$&@ about the outcome. |
My chief problem, after watching the movie again on DVD, is the pace of their romance. While the graphic novel series could play out over a year of ups, downs, and general meanderings in a hipster relationship, the movie version had to convey that in about a week yet couldn't turn it into a whirlwind love affair. That left the overall narrative unbalanced, with the fight plot driving the movie. Come to think of it, dramatic compression was likewise a problem with the Watchmen movie, another comic book adaptation that didn't perform at the box office at the level that fan enthusiasm forecast.
And yes, Michael Cera is a better whiner than a fighter, but by and large, his performance in the lead was solid.
No, outside of its target audience, the film flopped. I know the internet has a massive raging hard-on for Scott Pilgrim, but it was not the mega success blockbuster people are hyping it up as. I enjoyed the film a lot, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking it'll last the ages.
It was like Chasing Amy with less dick and fart jokes and more martial arts.
- CaptainFoamerang
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THIS.|
Originally Posted by Chazzmatazz
The movie failed for two basic reasons, the main two characters, Scott and Ramona. There is nothing desirable/sympathetic about either of these two twain wrecks. To connect with audiences, a romantic comedy needs at least one of the two protagonists to be marginally likable, in order to achieve a level of emotional investment by the audience sufficient for them to give a #$&@ about the outcome. That emotional investment in the characters by the audience is the single most important ingredient in establishing a romantic dynamic. Both Scott and Ramona are thoughtless jerks. The "happy" ending (which blows the chance for story-level redemption by having Scott emotionally curbstomp the only sympathetic character in the film) is a stab in the face to anyone with an actual sense of romanticism (or adult behavior). Of COURSE this movie failed. What were they thinking?
It looked cool though. |
When I saw the trailers, part of me was worried it was going to be a lot of silly gimmicks and in-jokes dressed over a thin, under-developed story. My only faith came from Wright's solid track record.
So much for the track record. My first instinct was right. The main characters are- at best- flat, and at worst, jerks. There's not much of a real plot, when you strip away all the cuteness and pointless fights. The fights themselves were usually resolved by the kind of dopey, lazy conventions you'd usually see in some 1970s Hanna Barbera cartoon. All the silly little crap peppered throughout the movie really just distracted from the story, or more even distracted from the lack of story. Cut out all the silly gimmicks, and you got a 40 minute movie about minor hipster drama.
Before I saw the movie, someone told each of the exes represented some aspec of Ramona's personality Scott had to "conquer" and the whole battle/video game thing was just his way of visualizing it. If it had actually worked that way, the movie would have actually been really amazing. There would be some story there. Too bad it didn't work that way.
And ya know what, while I got my rant on, lemme blast another detail- if you're going to make a movie derivative of video game visuals and conventions, maybe take some time and use VIDEO GAME VISUALS AND CONVENTIONS. Sometimes it seemed to click (the "pee" bar) and other times it was some arty, low fi, hand-rendered noise, like the opening credits, or the flat white slash when they played music.
IMHO, a far superior version of the same kind of story would be Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. Not as funny of loaded with game refs, sure, but it had an actual story with fully formed characters using a crazy, surreal kind of dreamspace to deal with RL issues. Awkward, insecure hero and a brash but damaged heroine trying to figure themselves and each other out. Even has crazy hair colors.
Okay. I'm done. /rant
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Nolite te bastardes carborundorum.
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I stand corrected re: the critical response. I must have been looking at other critics at that time (or more likely other movies). I do consider myself to be squarely in the bullseye of the target market for the film and having loved all of the director's previous work (esp with Simon Pegg) was actually surprised at my reaction to SP vs. W. I actually don't even have a problem with Michael Cera.|
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
Rotten Tomatoes' assessment (81%) begs to differ. As for the box office, it grossed over $47M worldwide, which on a budget of $60M is what Hollywood calls a "disappointment" these days while waiting for the DVD revenues to kick in. For a real flop, check out the earnings ratio for the critically reviled Jonah Hex, another summer comic book movie: less than $11M on a $47M budget, with little prospect of secondary revenues.
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| "Nothing desirable/sympathetic" is something of a blanket (over)statement. It misses entirely what distinguishes Scott and Ramona from all the cutesy rom-com couples out there: They're flawed in ways that are recognizably ordinary instead of unconvincingly wacky. |
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| What they have in common is that they are both in need of some growing up, which they do. That kind of pairing doesn't make for a traditional romantic comedy - in some respects, it's as jaundiced about Young Lurv as 500 Days of Summer - but neither do video game-inspired post-Matrix martial arts fights. |
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My chief problem, after watching the movie again on DVD, is the pace of their romance. While the graphic novel series could play out over a year of ups, downs, and general meanderings in a hipster relationship, the movie version had to convey that in about a week yet couldn't turn it into a whirlwind love affair. That left the overall narrative unbalanced, with the fight plot driving the movie. Come to think of it, dramatic compression was likewise a problem with the Watchmen movie, another comic book adaptation that didn't perform at the box office at the level that fan enthusiasm forecast. And yes, Michael Cera is a better whiner than a fighter, but by and large, his performance in the lead was solid. |
I expected this to be another Watchmen or Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy and that is about what it is.
It's got lots that goes for it but doesn't quite click, primarily due to pacing, both of the plot and of some individual scenes. The result is a great nerd movie that can be difficult to watch with a group of non-fans (well, Hitchhiker's wasn't great, but similar principle).
Scott Pilgrim is not a property I knew well before the movie, unlike those, but even without reading it I could tell the pacing trouble. The early parts of the movie are occasionally entertaining but slow. Then the first ex shows up and has an absolutely incredible scene that had even skeptical non-fans roaring. The movie was incredible for the first ex, great with the 2nd, good with the 3rd, awkward and annoying with the 4th, rushed with the 5th and 6th, and something of an overlong mixed bag with the 7th. Nega Scott was much more entertaining than the 7th ex IMO.
To read what some say about the movie being too driven by the fights, I suppose they are correct, because to me that was the whole movie, coming to it not having read the book. Overall I think this is a good and recommendable movie however, probably better than Watchmen and better than Hitchiker's as movies go, and makes me want to read the book.
IMO, executives are never who you want guiding. A skilled editor could have helped however.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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SPvtW was actually fun unlike Watchmen.|
Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina
I expected this to be another Watchmen or Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy and that is about what it is.
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They were trying to cram a graphic novel series into a movie. Of course they cut out a lot to fit it in. Yes, the actual relationship between the two main characters was lacking. I still thought it still was a fun as hell movie. It lacked in sales due to the size of the target audience. There are far worse romantic comedies out today that sell far better. Why? I have relatives that will see the latest romantic comedy to a default, but won't go near SPvtW unless it was put right in front of them and they were made to watch. There are the same people who have no problem seeing cesspool level stuff like "When in Rome" and saying it was cute.
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I agree with TJ on a number of issues but most of his fans are... well... the type of people I generally like to avoid. And yes he does talk down to people, for two reasons, comically mocking those that are stuck up, and secondly just because it comes to him natural after dealing with such idiots for so long one tends to get like that.|
Originally Posted by Lastjustice
I'd agree I'm not part of his audience. Basically everyone in his comments is like preach on distressed preach on! They all want to be a bastion of hate together that's their business. I didn't feel being dragged down into the muck with him and his cronies trying argue with them as I started type out a response(and if you know me I love to type out long responses.) but ultimately felt the best way show him what for was to ignore him altogether. People like that are just bad for the soul to deal with.
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He'll likely mellow out a bit more with experience with TGWTG's audience.
The whole reviewing movies and such are more or less a side video thing from what I know of him and some of you might like his older youtube videos but you'll likely not find him unless you know what to look for which can't be brought up here so meh...
Tragically, the CoH boards logged me out just as I was posting an eloquent disquisition on the true nature of the box office flop, with extensive illustrations ranging from The Adventures of Pluto Nash to The Adventures of Baron Münchhausen. It would have settled once and for all the position of Scott Pilgrim vs. the World in cinematic history and permanently silenced its critics and naysayers. Its loss is, of course, irreparable.
Anyway.
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Wright, at one point during the interview blitz, stated that his model for Scott was "Billy Liar" for the video game generation. Cutesy isn't part of his worldview, and even his version of quirkiness receives a lot of self-criticism (Spaced and Shaun of the Dead in particular). The mass audience may well want simple cutesiness and quirkiness, which may complicate Wright's career trajectory for the unclassifiable Ant-Man and the consipiracy-theorizing Them.|
Originally Posted by Chazzmatazz
Gonna have to disagree here. I think they were really trying to characterize them as a personal version of cutesy that unfortunately bypasses mass audience-accessible versions of "quirky" and leaps straight into alienatingly annoying.
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| I hated "500 Days" as well and I don't really see how they (Scott and Ramona) grew in any meaningful sense. Scott's choice of Ramona over Knives reinforces this (the director admitted that he hadn't decided who he would end up with during the filming. Aparently the books have him going with Knives). |
Also, in the final book, Scott and Ramona head off to face the future together, although there was an unused alternate ending for the movie in which Scott hooked up with Knives again. Wisely, this was discarded. After all her character's growth (arguably the most in the cast), that pairing would have been the least satisfying. Her line that she's "too cool" for him was perfect.
The first pass at the screenplay was done when the comic was only half done. Sure they had outlines to work from but as the movie went further on, the less polished original material they had to base it off of. I think that's why the first half of the movie clicks and then meanders as more of it was based off of outlines and notes.
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Next person who cites Rotten Tomatoes opinion like it matters well.....lets say it won't be pretty. It's no better than suggesting box office =quality....actually it's probably worse. I'm sick of people citing it like this tiny cross section of critics somehow validates a movies success. Most people don't care enough to bother posting their views online to really reflect what the collective planet actually thinks of a film. The people who who likely eat up this film are probably same crowd who would actually post there. They were most of the target audience which horribly skrews the math.| Rotten Tomatoes' assessment (81%) begs to differ. |
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| And yes, Michael Cera is a better whiner than a fighter, but by and large, his performance in the lead was solid. |
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| Also, in the final book, Scott and Ramona head off to face the future together, although there was an unused alternate ending for the movie in which Scott hooked up with Knives again. Wisely, this was discarded. After all her character's growth (arguably the most in the cast), that pairing would have been the least satisfying. Her line that she's "too cool" for him was perfect. |
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| I do think the movie could have done much better were it more conventional in its plot structure and pacing, while still serving to indulge the visceral and thematic vision of the director. This is one of the rare times when I think the guiding hand of (gasp) studio execs could have uplifted the film from its cult destiny. |
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| No, outside of its target audience, the film flopped. I know the internet has a massive raging hard-on for Scott Pilgrim, but it was not the mega success blockbuster people are hyping it up as. I enjoyed the film a lot, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking it'll last the ages. |
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| The first pass at the screenplay was done when the comic was only half done. Sure they had outlines to work from but as the movie went further on, the less polished original material they had to base it off of. I think that's why the first half of the movie clicks and then meanders as more of it was based off of outlines and notes. |
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With their wallets.
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Originally Posted by Lastjustice
Lastly I don't think they had any business making a film about this series entire it was actually done. That just seems like a terrible idea. Imagine if someone had made a watchmen movie with the book only half way done. They're going deviate a bit no matter what, but that gives literally no window to stay true to the original story or add lines or references from it. What were they thinking?
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Joke's on them! |
Originally Posted by BrandX
With their wallets.
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Stay Gold, Paragon. Stay Gold.
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Ah, perhaps then you're a connoisseur of Metacritic (which gave it an aggregate rating of 69%)? My point in citing these somewhat arbitrary numerical averages is that the critical consensus was, broadly speaking, in the movie's favor and not, as had been suggested earlier, a comparative flop among reviewers.|
Originally Posted by Lastjustice
Next person who cites Rotten Tomatoes opinion like it matters well.....lets say it won't be pretty.
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Although I'm no accountant for taste, I follow a selection of simpatico if fallible reviewers when it comes to films. They also enjoyed SPvtW, though not unreservedly either. Of course, if all that matters for a movie is the tally of eyeballs, then aesthetic judgments are beside the point (hoorah for the ephemeral Expendables in that case).
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| Strongly disagree. I much preferred the alternate ending. It felt like Scott's life finnally got on track. You actually felt a connection between Knives and Scott. Never do you actually feel like ramona and Scott have any reason to be together besides the story says so. I fail see how thats better. |
One line of defense of SPvtW was that it was too cool for the arcade, that its target audience of gamers wasn't ready to follow the misadventures of a skinny, self-involved Scott Pilgrim and his indie-rock obscure object of desire when they were used to rooting for buff/well-coifed, uncomplicated heroes, manic pixie dream girls, and meet-cute hipster couples. At first, this line of argument seemed condescending, but it's turned out to be a persistent one.
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Knives is the one everyone like so why would they want her to not only end up with the d-bag as a second prize, but also want her to lower herself to be with the d-bag after finding out he was one... What kind of idiots are these people that think that that is a better end than the male d-bag and the female d-bag go off and grow together as d-bags in love.
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Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
The connection was all but entirely on Knives's part, and kudos to newcomer Ellen Wong for selling that in her performance. Scott, bluntly, used her in passive-aggressive fashion. Cheering on the alternate ending misses the point of Scott finally levelling up to achieve the necessary balls and self-respect to admit to her that he treated her badly. The idea that in a "better" ending, he would then get back with her reduces her to the prize at the end, precisely the opposite of what Wright was critiquing in his portrayal of a video game-fueled protagonist.
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Having just read the complete series of Scott Pilgrim, I have to say the characterization of Scott and Ramona on the big screen is pretty much spot on. The book expands upon their relationship more, which helps explain why Scott is fighting, but Scott is as self-absorbed and jerky and idiotic in the comic as he is on screen. And I feel both on the screen and in the book, Ramona is supposed to be sympathetic, but still weighed down and directed by her past mistakes. Scott represents a new break for her, and eventually, Ramona signifies the same for Scott. They are supposed to be flawed characters, and you are only really supposed to root for them after their respective epiphanies near the end. In the book, it is made clear that they two are somewhat meant for each other because they are both children refusing to face their problems and grow up while their friends do grow up.
And Knives ending up with Scott would have been horrible. First of all, that's NOT how the book ends (Scott and Knives even try to make out to see if there is anything...there is nothing) and it would signify that Scott is taking the "easy" way out, by going with someone who will always love him more than he loves them.
I've made this comparison before: SPvsTW and Eternal Happiness of a Spotless Mind. Both are non-traditional romances framed around people who are jerks and maybe aren't meant for each other (or at least, their relationship won't be smooth). Both end on an ambigious note as to whether or not their relationship will work. Both are shot in a non-traditional manner. And I enjoy both, because they treat their characters and their relationships are messy. Which life is.
"Ben is short for Frank."
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Another one of my favorites, particularly for the character of the ironically named Clementine and Kate Winslet's performance. Her line "Too many guys think I'm a concept, or I complete them, or I'm gonna make them alive. But I'm just a ******-up girl who's looking for my own peace of mind. Don't assign me yours." blasts the Manic Pixie Dream Girl trope into the dust. Ramona's not quite as wise, nor as self-destructive, but she similarly resists Scott's attempts to cast her in this role in their relationship.|
Originally Posted by BafflingBeerMan
I've made this comparison before: SPvsTW and Eternal Happiness of a Spotless Mind.
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Also, they share the habit of regularly dyeing their hair strikingly odd colors.
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Exactly.|
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
Another one of my favorites, particularly for the character of the ironically named Clementine and Kate Winslet's performance. Her line "Too many guys think I'm a concept, or I complete them, or I'm gonna make them alive. But I'm just a ******-up girl who's looking for my own peace of mind. Don't assign me yours." blasts the Manic Pixie Dream Girl trope into the dust. Ramona's not quite as wise, nor as self-destructive, but she similarly resists Scott's attempts to cast her in this role in their relationship.
Also, they share the habit of regularly dyeing their hair strikingly odd colors. |
Remember, Ramona is literally the girl of Scott's dreams. Scott doesn't know what that means, other than he has to have her and that she is significant in some way. But Ramona tells her no, she isn't here to change him or comfort him. She's as messed up as he is. (Interesting sidenote: Clementine could be seen as Joel's dream girl as well, since most of the movie takes places inside his memories/dreams as the procedure takes place while he sleeps).
But here's the kicker, like Clementine and Joel, Scott and Ramona do change each other. Even if the relationship ultimately doesn't work out, Joel is now more open to love (before Clemmy, he had a horrible breakup), Clementine really wants to be more grounded and find someone to share her life with (frozen lake scenes), Scott is ready to throw away his immature view on relationships, and Ramona, as she says herself, is done with being a ***** but needs Scott ultimate niceness to firm that up in her mind.
The Manic Pixie Dream Girl is supposed to spur an epiphany in the male character. The MPDG is supposed to be perfect, spunky, infallible. In SPvsTW and ESotSM, both sides in the relationship change each other. In that way, both sides need to start out as imperfect. And they need to do horrible things to each other to eventually spur that change.
"Ben is short for Frank."
-Baffling Beer-Man, The Tenacious 3: The Movie
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I hardly consider 226 reviews to be a tiny cross section unless you are thinking that any blogger with more than 2 followers should be counted as a critic.
Also the comic's creator worked closely with the director and the screen writer while the movie was going through it's long, drawn out (4-5 years?) preproduction. Actually some of the elements and dialog from the finished screen play made it's way back into the comic.
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Finally watched this on DVD, Chris Evans rocked. Oh and i loved the Universal video game music.
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Protagonist double standards.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
Knives is the one everyone like so why would they want her to not only end up with the d-bag as a second prize, but also want her to lower herself to be with the d-bag after finding out he was one... What kind of idiots are these people that think that that is a better end than the male d-bag and the female d-bag go off and grow together as d-bags in love.
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Scott is the protagonist, so he is the first prize. Knives is better than Ramona so she is the first prize, and thus the protagonist should go with her.
Audiences have been conditioned into it. The guy who spends most of the movie being a jerk only to turn it around superficially at the end to get the girl is an oft used but terrible plot template.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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226 people isn't even a % of the total people who saw the film was my point. I don't care what critics think as most people pretencious enough to think they are more insightful than the average movie goer isn't going see films for same reason I am. Ebert proves this time and again. |
Originally Posted by Father Xmas
I hardly consider 226 reviews to be a tiny cross section unless you are thinking that any blogger with more than 2 followers should be counted as a critic.
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The collective public didn't give a rats behind about this film meaning it's cult status regardless how many people rave about it having quality they are the minority. It just was a niche film and the people reviewing it online were the target audience. It's like asking people at a race track if NASCAR is the greatest sport. You're going get a biased answer.
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| Also the comic's creator worked closely with the director and the screen writer while the movie was going through it's long, drawn out (4-5 years?) preproduction. Actually some of the elements and dialog from the finished screen play made it's way back into the comic. |
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| What kind of idiots are these people that think that that is a better end than the male d-bag and the female d-bag go off and grow together as d-bags in love. |
I thought Ramona ending up with G-man would been far more fitting as he was the guy she deserved. After beating him to a pulp Scott just said you can have Ramona and walked off. To me that would been the ultimate showing up self respect. That she wasn't worth any of the grief (atleast from the movie stand point as seemed Scott had no real investment in her.)
Scott hadn't screwed up with Knives really all that badly.I wouldn't really consider what he did as cheating. He moved on and wasnt still having sex with her or abusing her time ...rather he just jerked her around on taking his time to break up. Had he done that sooner it would been 100% clean in my mind.
Sometimes we think we want something, but the thing we want most is realized when we under go trials by fire. Which in the fight that they needed each other to defeat Gideon and worked as a team showed that symbolicly. If they wanted to sell Ramona to us she should been the one double teaming Gideon not Knives.
For the movie's ending to worked they really needed us to believe Scott and ramona's relationship had some legs to it. That never came across....as he says he loves her...like based off of what? Sorry the ending is epic fail. I expected it to go that way...but I still thought was quite lame. Nothing any one in this thread can justify that as there's litterally nothing that shows Ramona and Scott belong together. There's never any chemistry as Scott just comes across as the ultimate pity F*** and nothing more. How is a pity f*** a happy ending?
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I am curious, how does Ramona come across as a d-bag? The biggest one in the movie?
She certainly has her jerky moments (the scenes that lead up to fighting Roxy, but Scott is also reacting as a d-bag).
Her running back to Gideon is only after Scott effectively dumps her/demeans her by putting down any of her past relationships while glossing over his own ("Oh, I have no emotional baggage at all, all my breakups were mutual." "Oh, I had to fight 70 guys for Kim.")
The fact that even after that fight, she helps Scott defeat Roxy shows she actually cares for him.
As far as why they belong with each other, yeah, well, the movie does kinda shortshift the relationship, by having the movie cover maybe a week or two. The book does a little better job, as it has more time to develop things, however, I think it takes it too far in the other direction. The Volumes take place maybe over 2 years. That spaces out the fights so much that they appear mere trifles, which I think minimizes the symbolism the movie gives the fights: the emotional baggae one carries fro meach relationship. The movie presents them as something that needs to be overcome. The books just almost shrugs its shoulders at them.
"Ben is short for Frank."
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I own this now. The moneys were well spent!