Why no Super Strength Scrapper?
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2010-08-06 15:16 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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^^^^^^ THIS!!!!|
Originally Posted by Antigonus
The simple answer? Rage. The devs don't like how it works on Tanks and Brutes, so they sure as hell aren't going to try to port that headache over to Scrappers and, dare I say it, Stalkers. It would require some serious rebalancing to not break the game wide open.
When they are satisfied with how that power is balanced, then we may see it proliferated. Not likely till then. |
Rage on a scrapper would be way OP as a direct port. Some big changes would have to be made to bring it over to scrappers. Lets see slotting +95% damage, Rage +100% damage, Double rage +100% damage AAO up to +55% damage = potential of +350% damage without any external buffs or insp. On a brute or tank, not a big deal since their base damage is pretty low, (and rage is only +80% for them) but on a scrapper it would be game breaking.
Devs can either tackle this issue now, or bring us things like GR and other new power sets and put SS on the back burner until later.
I'm sure Martial Arts and the whole 'Rage' power has something to do with it.
Somethings shouldn't be proliferated. Like Ice Armor for Brutes and Illusion Control for Dominators.
If they do get proliferated, big deal. But I'd hope the devs would have enough common sense to reevaluate the way the powersets work and how they would affect the archetype as a whole by being useable by said archetype.
Scrapper Multiplier + Ragex2 + Against All Odds = _______
fill in the blank.
Edit: Curse you Ninjas! Damn you to hell and back!!!!
Whining about everything since 2006.
Ammo switching for Dual Pistols was my idea:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=135484
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No. Fury works even if the attack misses, and if brutes are allowed to have dark armor, which has mitigation toggles that completely *stop* attacks from all minions, they can have ice armor, which has *one* toggle that slows by a measly 32% (reducing their overall attack rate to a whopping 3/4ths of normal). |
Originally Posted by Vel_Overload
Somethings shouldn't be proliferated. Like Ice Armor for Brutes
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| and Illusion Control for Dominators. |
More generally, I quite frankly don't understand why some people get hung up on the whole 'unique powersets for each AT' idea. The argument is usually something about 'preserving each AT's uniqueness', but honestly that's a bunch of bull. Put an ill/ controller and an ill/ dominator next to each other and *try* to tell me they're the same. I dare you. The two ATs play totally differently, and do so even with the same primary. Or try a SS/ stalker and a SS/ tank. Or a.... you get the idea. Unique powersets are not required to make an AT unique. The AT's unique playstyle is enough to accomplish that.
More tellingly, if having an exclusive set is so important, what does that say about all the controllers who *aren't* illusion? Are they somehow less 'unique'?
@MuonNeutrino
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Okay, i can understand that Illusion Control doesn't work well with Domination, but conceptually speaking Illusions are used by villains more than heroes. The problem would be that Illusion relies so heavily on pets and pseudo-pets.|
Originally Posted by Vel_Overload
Somethings shouldn't be proliferated. Like Ice Armor for Brutes and Illusion Control for Dominators.
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Ice Armor for Brutes doesn't have the Fury issues it had in early CoV beta, so i don't see how it would be worse for Brutes than Stone or Dark Armor. Certainly there's no conceptual reason.
Edit: Damn you, Muon! That's what i get for drinking my tea before posting.
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In a sense they are, among controllers, because illusion works differently in certain ways than other control sets.|
Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
More tellingly, if having an exclusive set is so important, what does that say about all the controllers who *aren't* illusion? Are they somehow less 'unique'?
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There are people who don't want to do something different and will play whatever set is most popular or viewed as the default set for a given AT. Some folks are into concept only and will make whatever fits their idea of what the toon should be. Other folks just want whatever is the most efficient combination of powersets because they power game/farm etc.
I don't have anything against powerset proliferation myself, but I also wouldn't get choked up about each AT having a unique set that others don't, provided that all ATs have enough powersets to meet most any concept and build requirement within reason.
If going forward, the devs decided that the next several powersets added would each be exclusive to a single AT, I don't think I'd freak out provided each AT got something great.
Just as one might argue that there is no reason for x AT to not have a powerset, there is no rule stating that they have to get it at some point down the road.
Personally I think we be should be rolling in so many new powersets, that we don't have time to complain about missing sets from other ATs...but of course that's just fanciful thinking since we can't even get a single additional travel power set.
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My guess, is the same reason that you don't have Dark/ blasters, /fire Defenders, Illusion Doms. They haven't ported them yet|
Originally Posted by dbuter
It seems an obvious choice, but isn't allowed in game. Is there a numbers reason for this? Or just a holdover from the game beginning?
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The only set That I know of that is likely to not be proliferated is Ice Melee for Brutes and that's more due to the Slows in Ice screwing up Fury
On Justice
Global @Desi Nova Twitter: @desi_nova Steam: Desi_nova. I don't do Xbox or PS3
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Originally Posted by Antigonus
The simple answer? Rage. The devs don't like how it works on Tanks and Brutes, so they sure as hell aren't going to try to port that headache over to Scrappers and, dare I say it, Stalkers. It would require some serious rebalancing to not break the game wide open.
When they are satisfied with how that power is balanced, then we may see it proliferated. Not likely till then. |
So replace Rage with Build Up.
They do it for every Stalker set that gets ported I don't see why they wouldn't do it for SS should it get ported to Stalkers.
I also don't see why they couldn't do the same for Scrappers.
Actually come to think of it because Stalkers always get Build Up it seems like there's a better chance of SS going to Stalkers than Scrappers.
Lets see Rage becomes Build Up
Hand Clap becomes AS
Taunt becomes Placate
Done Stalkers can get SS.
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Agree.|
Originally Posted by Desi_Nova
My guess, is the same reason that you don't have Dark/ blasters, /fire Defenders, Illusion Doms. They haven't ported them yet
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| The only set That I know of that is likely to not be proliferated is Ice Melee for Brutes and that's more due to the Slows in Ice screwing up Fury |
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Another simple way it can happen for scrappers while keeping rage is to either reduce duration or increase recharge time.
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Originally Posted by DMystic
So replace Rage with Build Up.
They do it for every Stalker set that gets ported I don't see why they wouldn't do it for SS should it get ported to Stalkers. I also don't see why they couldn't do the same for Scrappers. Actually come to think of it because Stalkers always get Build Up it seems like there's a better chance of SS going to Stalkers than Scrappers. Lets see Rage becomes Build Up Hand Clap becomes AS Taunt becomes Placate Done Stalkers can get SS. |
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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You do realize that if the above is true then your argument is moot, yes? If a "significant amount of the player population" wants something (reasonable), they get it, as they should. Few people actually care what you (or I or him or her) think in this regard. Personally, I've been clamoring for energy melee for scrappers since Issue 4 because, as you allude to, there are things I could do with that set's secondary effect (even after it's been gutted like it has) combined with a prodigious regeneration rate (and now, IOs). But I think the devs see that as well so I'm not holding my breath. But the whole "it doesn't fit thematically for me" argument is the sign of a very self-absorbed persona. Bottom line, if it'll make a 'significant amount of the player population' happy and can be done in a way that doesn't turn the game on its ear, do it.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
I realize that a significant amount of the player-base hardly cares about game design mechanics, and that possible a larger amount of the player-base doesn't care about thematic design elements either. My argument for not proliferating Super-Strength to scrappers is largely centered on the thematic design rather than the mechanical design.
I realize that a significant amount of the player population does not think their should be a different gameplay experience for each separate archtype. I realize that a significant amount of the player population does not think that their chosen archtype should fill any mechanically designed role in the game as a default setting. I realize that a significant amount of the player population will leverage any in-game mechanics that they can to make their chosen archtype into something it was not designed to be. Ergo, I realize that the positioning of my argument against proliferating the Super Strength set is only going to be a viable argument for those who care about thematic and mechanic design elements. It is not going to be an effective or useful argument against a player who cares about neither design elements and simply wants the set to be ported. |
Oh and BrandX, sorry, Martial Arts doesn't come close to being a suitable stand-in for super strength. Tenzhi's right, MA doesn't have nearly the same 'feel' as super strength, by design. Tell me where I can find the foot stomp-esque animation for eagles claw. Haven't seen that one yet.
@Remianen / @Remianen Too
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Leo G's already said this, but I need to repeat this:|
Originally Posted by je_saist
This.
... From a thematic standpoint each of the melee archtypes is supposed to have their own unique play-style that their specific powers leverage:
The Super Strength set as it's exposed to Tankers is just a solid animation set. It's not fancy, it's not over the top. It's a simple collection of strong punches. For scrappers, it's almost too simple. Which is why Scrappers get Martial Arts. A Martial Artist leverages their whole body when attacking. It's a fancily animated set that fits the thematic design of the scrapper archtype. Super Strength works on Brutes because Brutes are insane. ... |
Choosing archetypes means making some game mechanics choices, not thematic choices. e.g. Scrapper vs Tanker - do you want better damage, or better defences? It doesn't say anything about your body type, personality, combat style or what kind of hero you are.
You're right in that each AT has a different playstyle, but only in temrs of game mechanics. eg all brutes will seek aggro to improve their damage, but that doesn't mean they're insane beserkers, or bulky, or smoke cigars and talk with a Brooklyn accent or anything else.
There's no thematic reason to disallow players from making a supestrong character who is stronger than they are tougher. There are game mechanic reasons due to rage and Scarpper dmaage values maybe, but that's a different matter.
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Epic Win?
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Originally Posted by Vel_Overload
Scrapper Multiplier + Ragex2 + Against All Odds = _______
fill in the blank. |
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The first hit's gonna miss though ^_^.
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Originally Posted by Nightphall
Epic Win?
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Desi is just going on the info from the Closed Beta Test for CoV, back in tha day. The slow effects in Ice didn't work well with Fury. Ice was dropped, and replaced with Energy Melee and Energy Aura.
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Originally Posted by Schismatrix
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A simple change they can do to port the set 'as is' is to reduce the damage bonus on Rage.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
Yeah, too bad Fury was screwed up back then anyways. There was a lot more than slows messing up Fury generation at the time. I'd like to see how it does now.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
Fury works? I mean I solo misisons and never rise above 1/4 bar. I thought it was a useless power, like Blaster Defiance.
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just have a little more confidence in your brute's survival and you can nudge the difficulty up to x2 spawn, don't bother resting between mobs, just swallow greens and blues, and then you can play a fun game called: "How long can I keep my fury bar up past 90%?"
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Originally Posted by BlackArachnia
Fury works? I mean I solo misisons and never rise above 1/4 bar. I thought it was a useless power, like Blaster Defiance.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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I agree. Only my Masterminds should be able to summon an army of henchmen.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
For crying out loud, what's the problem with letting some archtypes have exclusive power sets ONLY for that archtype?
Not everything needs to be proliferated, or should. |
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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I can summon an army of henchmen on an illusion/storm controller..|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
I agree. Only my Masterminds should be able to summon an army of henchmen.
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Or I can just log onto either of my defenders and shout on the broadcast or a global channel: "Level XX defender, LFT"
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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No, you can get 5 pets who don't listen to you (one of which doesn't even move! The nerve!), one of which summons his own pet which doesn't listen to him, either.|
Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
I can summon an army of henchmen on an illusion/storm controller..
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Edit: Just noticed you said /storm, which adds another pet too stubborn to move, and a pet which doesn't even do what it tells itself to do.
I have 6 henchmen who are compelled to do my eeebil bidding.
(Plus ghost henchmen for Necromancy, and a swarm of minions for Thugs and Demon Summoning)
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Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
Or I can just log onto either of my defenders and shout on the broadcast or a global channel: "Level XX defender, LFT"
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Originally Posted by Fiery-Enforcer
A simple change they can do to port the set 'as is' is to reduce the damage bonus on Rage.
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I think it would have to be a pretty significant reduction to be even remotely balanced. I'm pretty sure that Scrappers were never really intended to have that kind of sustained self buff. The only thing that really comes close is Follow Up from Claws set and those bonuses are fairly low comparatively. Scrappers are just more bursty damage wise.
Regardless, of how they would go about it, it would probably require a great deal of coding and even more testing to be balanced. I would hope that the devs would have more on their plates in the coming months than that kind of time requirement would allow.
(Internet ate my post so here is a not-so-well-worded repost)
I have a lot of sympathy for the thematics argument, although I am a thematics kind of man. I like my games to value the theme, setting, lore and feel of the world and its characters so that they become that much more immersive.
Unfortunately as games get older, the novelty of thematics tends to wear off and people get tired of the way they limit gameplay. So games tend to follow the trend of game mechanics the longer the game lives, rightly or wrongly. Hence now in certain other games with Blood Elf and Tauren Paladins and Space Goat and Darvern Shamans. I suppose you could label me conservative not liberal when it comes to ongoing game design.
Now with GR we will all have access to all AT's. As a result I think the question has somewhat turned on its head. It's no longer why no Super Strength Scrappers, but why don't not a Super Strength Brute? Its already available, very similar in playstyle and thematically much more appropriate.
Also for the record, I would prefer new sets to more proliferation. Proliferation is ok occasionally, but it is pretty much just the recycling of old content.
Je_saist did a beautiful and elaborate post which better explains my position. Followed by some comical and almost childish attempts at rebuttal
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Yes, i am aware of what Fury was like back in CoV beta, but it's been reworked and improved since then. In fact, the version of Fury that went live in CoV was already quite different from the early beta version that originally lead to Ice sets being dropped for Brutes IIRC. Of course at that point the powersets were pretty much set in stone then and for some time after.
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Originally Posted by Kheldarn
Desi is just going on the info from the Closed Beta Test for CoV, back in tha day. The slow effects in Ice didn't work well with Fury. Ice was dropped, and replaced with Energy Melee and Energy Aura.
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Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
I realize that a significant amount of the player population does not think their should be a different gameplay experience for each separate archtype. I realize that a significant amount of the player population does not think that their chosen archtype should fill any mechanically designed role in the game as a default setting. I realize that a significant amount of the player population will leverage any in-game mechanics that they can to make their chosen archtype into something it was not designed to be.
By this I don't mean a free for all with a scrapper having /Kinetics as a secondary, but Brutes/Tanks/Scrappers/Stalkers have access to the Melee Pool and Armour Pool, with some variations in the pools on account of AT. After all, a Scrapper doesn't need Hide, and a Brute doesn't need Placate.
I could actually see a Stalker with Super Strength. Lunging out of the shadows to break someone, all feral strength like. A guard walks past, unsuspecting before suddenly a fist drives forth out of nowhere to crush his chest. The odds heat up, and the Stalker smashes into the ground to knock his enemies off their feet before hiding in the shadows once more.
SUPPORT - IT'S NOT JUST A GROUPING OF ATs
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