Why no Super Strength Scrapper?
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2010-08-06 15:16 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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If Superstrength on Scrappers would do too much damage, then relative to other melee sets it does too much damage.|
Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
Scrappers do get 100% from Buildup and similar powers vs the 80% for Brutes and tanks IIRC, you can stack rage quite easily which means Scrappers would get 200% damage buff compared 160%, the Scrapper would also got Criticals on top of that. Considering Scrappers also start out with a higher melee damage modifier means they would be putting out stupidly high damage without much effort.
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I'm not saying SS is overpowered, but the fact that it would do a lot of damage on Scrappers is not a reason to say it would be overpowered if proliferated. It SHOULD do a lot of damage. That's what Scrappers do.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Also, the new Martial Art's Eagle's Claw comes with a short duration 'Set up' bonus that basically improves crit chance by 33%. Not sure if it's only for MA attacks or any Scrapper attack but it really does sound to me that the chance to crit can be buffed or debuffed on the fly now.
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Originally Posted by DMystic
I had forgotten about the Scaling Crit for Stalkers. I also remembered some other things so yeah they actually could have rage increase crit chance.
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Scrappers are supposed to do more damage than Brutes and tankers. That's why Scrappers have higher modifiers for self damage buffing. Superstrength is supposed to be much better on Scrappers. It would be broken if it were not.|
Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
Haymaker on scrapper base abt 114
Haymaker on brute base 68.4 Slotted for 100% damage on scrapper 228 Slotted for 100% damage on brute 136.8 Plus Fury at 66% (+132% dam) for brutes 227.1 This is where the sets should be about equal. If you run the numbers for almost any set, fully slotted and at about 66% fury the damage will be very close. Now both sets can do more damage than this. BU and crits will increase the damage for scrappers and BU and higher sustained fury will increase the damage for brutes. Overall the end result is similar damage output over time. If the brute can manage to maintain their fury bar that is. Now here is what happens when we factor rage into the picture. Plus Rage at 100% for scrapper 342 Plus Rage at 80% for brute 281.8 Even with fury at 85% (about the highest you can sustain over time on a brute) your damage would be about 307.8. And the scrapper would crit at times for 684. All of this without any external buffs. Thanks to rage, this puts the average DPS much higher on a scrapper vs a brute. Consider that most other sets that the 2 ATs share have similar DPS and you can see how a direct port would really put the set over the top on scrappers. So why is rage not OP on a brute or tank? The set has been balanced with low damage, faster recharge attacks at the lower tiers and extra long recharge attacks at the higher end. The set was also given jab, which is only slightly better than brawl and also handclap which is slightly worse than brawl. So overall the set has been balanced against other sets for brutes and tankers based around rage. As others have said, in order to port to scrappers the devs would either have to rework rage, rework the damage on all the attacks or both. First they are porting over the sets that are the easiest to port and once those are done, they will work on the more difficult ones. SS will end up being one of the more difficult ones. |
Rage is either broken or it's not. I'm not saying it is, but if you're saying it's broken for Scrappers you're saying one of two things:
1) The AT system is broken;
2) Rage is broken.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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That one. But only because it self-stacks. Remove the stacking, problem solved for all ATs using SS.
| 2) Rage is broken. |
Be well, people of CoH.
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Run faster.
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Originally Posted by BlackArachnia
Fury works? I mean I solo misisons and never rise above 1/4 bar. I thought it was a useless power, like Blaster Defiance.
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@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
That one. But only because it self-stacks. Remove the stacking, problem solved for all ATs using SS.
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Exactly. It's far less broken on Tanks because they do significantly less damage with a lower damage cap. Brutes are a little bit broken in my opinion because the +damage cap is so much higher and Rage is easy to stack. Scrappers with higher modifiers and higher damage cap would be OMGSTUPID broken.
I would swear that Castle was messing with Rage on test not too long ago in an attempt to find something he liked better, but I couldn't find anything in a post search. Anybody else remeber that?
Yea, he made some changes, people freaked out, he pulled the changes. At this point I wish he'd cut the buff in half, make it a toggle and remove all the downsides. It would still be better than buildup, followup and blinding feint as a 50% persistent damage buff.
Be well, people of CoH.
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This.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Yea, he made some changes, people freaked out, he pulled the changes. At this point I wish he'd cut the buff in half, make it a toggle and remove all the downsides. It would still be better than buildup, followup and blinding feint as a 50% persistent damage buff.
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You could even give it more damage if the end cost was high enough.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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it would also make it fascinatingly different from other damage buffs.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
This.
You could even give it more damage if the end cost was high enough. |
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Not really. It would just be a non-variable Against All Odds.
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Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
it would also make it fascinatingly different from other damage buffs.
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Be well, people of CoH.
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But it would, presumably, still have the ToHit buff, correct?|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Not really. It would just be a non-variable Against All Odds.
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So that technically makes it a non-variable Against all Odds with a Variable Invincibility.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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So, what you're essentially saying is that a straight port wouldn't be overpowered on Scrappers because it's suppose to be overpowered?
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Scrappers are supposed to do more damage than Brutes and tankers. That's why Scrappers have higher modifiers for self damage buffing. Superstrength is supposed to be much better on Scrappers. It would be broken if it were not.
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[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
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If you accept that rage isn't currently overpowered then yes. It's the same thing I've always said as well.|
Originally Posted by Fiery-Enforcer
So, what you're essentially saying is that a straight port wouldn't be overpowered on Scrappers because it's suppose to be overpowered?
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For my own case, I can't accept that the 10 second crash is enough to counter a full two minutes of a buildup strength damage buff AND a massive tohit buff. And then to allow it to stack?!?!
I will never understand why Castle refuses to fix this.
Be well, people of CoH.
Same reason he hasn't "fixed" Spines or Stone Armor - it'd piss off a lot of people (he didn't use those exact words, but it was something to that effect). Oddly, he's okay with completely changing things just because they're "not popular" but he won't touch things that are...
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"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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Wasn't GFS the ONLY attack changed during the port from brute to scrapper for FM?|
Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
So it is ok to port one set over (fire) from brutes to scrappers and have it put out around the same DPS over time compared to a similarly built brute. But the same rules should not apply to SS. The only thing that seems to be broken is your expectations. |
Just checked. Yes, the lethal part of the damage of GFS is .84 for scrappers and 1 for brutes. I asked Castle about that once... to paraphrase he said something along the lines of "because."
However, as I pointed out earlier, do to criticals not working on the extra DoT on FM, brute FM is better than scrapper FM, so the statement that GFS was nerfed for scrappers to make the damage output comparable doesn't seem to be true.
So, if rage needs to be nerfed for scrappers, it should be nerfed for all ATs that use it. There is, however, precedent for nerfing say... KO Blow before giving it to scrappers.
Be well, people of CoH.
Well Bill went and quoted my post before I could delete and clairify.
If you look at the sets that scrappers and brutes already share, they do similar damage over time (assuming decent fury generation). Dark, Electric, Fire and Dual blades all can put out around the same damage, over time, with either a scrapper or brute. Granted a brute has to work a bit harder for it to maintain the fury but it is possible. Claws is a bit different since the damage was increased as well as the recharge when it went to brutes so not as easy to direcly compare that one.
My point is, the devs seem to want there to be a balance point between the average damage over time when comparing the same set on the different ATs. (At least between brutes and scrappers)
Because rage is constant (or close enough) and because scrappers get a higher damage bonus, a direct port would shift that balance point to grossly favor scrappers.
So pretend for a moment that all the sets are ported over and you want to make an Axe Melee high damage dealer. You can either pick a scrapper that can crit for some serious damage or a brute that takes a little time to build fury but can put out almost as good of numbers. There the choice is up to you on what play style you want and you can put out similar damage either way. Sometimes the brute will do more damage, sometimes the scrapper will do more damage.
Now you want to make a SS high damage toon. Why bother with a brute when you can make a scrapper that will always do more damage? Some would still play brutes just because they like fury and don't like scrappers. But many others would move to scrappers just because they are able to do more damage compared to brutes. Then folks would complain that SS on brutes needs to be increased to match scrapper levels and everyone would end up being pissed because the scrapper version got nerfed. To prevent all this the devs will figure out a way to balance everything before porting it over.
I don't get why any buff would be allowed to stack from the same source.
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If Rage is overpowered on Scrappers, then it's overpowered on Brutes and Tankers and should be nerfed. If Rage is OK on Brutes and Tankers, then it's OK on Scrappers. You people keep saying Rage is overpowered. I'm not.|
Originally Posted by Fiery-Enforcer
So, what you're essentially saying is that a straight port wouldn't be overpowered on Scrappers because it's suppose to be overpowered?
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Scrapper have less survivability than either AT and thus it is not a problem at all for the AT to do superior damage.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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The current changes on beta are intended to ensure that Brutes on average are between Tankers and Scrappers in damage and survivability. Thus is it no concern that Scrapper would do more damage with SS. In fact, that should be the case with all melee sets they share since Brutes are always more survivable than Scrappers.
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Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
Well Bill went and quoted my post before I could delete and clairify.
If you look at the sets that scrappers and brutes already share, they do similar damage over time (assuming decent fury generation). Dark, Electric, Fire and Dual blades all can put out around the same damage, over time, with either a scrapper or brute. Granted a brute has to work a bit harder for it to maintain the fury but it is possible. Claws is a bit different since the damage was increased as well as the recharge when it went to brutes so not as easy to direcly compare that one. My point is, the devs seem to want there to be a balance point between the average damage over time when comparing the same set on the different ATs. (At least between brutes and scrappers) Because rage is constant (or close enough) and because scrappers get a higher damage bonus, a direct port would shift that balance point to grossly favor scrappers. So pretend for a moment that all the sets are ported over and you want to make an Axe Melee high damage dealer. You can either pick a scrapper that can crit for some serious damage or a brute that takes a little time to build fury but can put out almost as good of numbers. There the choice is up to you on what play style you want and you can put out similar damage either way. Sometimes the brute will do more damage, sometimes the scrapper will do more damage. Now you want to make a SS high damage toon. Why bother with a brute when you can make a scrapper that will always do more damage? Some would still play brutes just because they like fury and don't like scrappers. But many others would move to scrappers just because they are able to do more damage compared to brutes. Then folks would complain that SS on brutes needs to be increased to match scrapper levels and everyone would end up being pissed because the scrapper version got nerfed. To prevent all this the devs will figure out a way to balance everything before porting it over. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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If this is the case, then all the Scrapper sets should do more damage than the Brute version. But, as we know that isn't the case. Did you even look at the numbers that HelinCarnate posted last page? The Scrapper would do more damage than the Brute at full Fury without even factoring in Criticals.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Scrapper have less survivability than either AT and thus it is not a problem at all for the AT to do superior damage.
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I don't understand the argument that if it's not OP'd on Brutes then it won't be on Scrappers. Scrappers and Brutes don't work the same way, it's that simple. I'll have to run some numbers myself, but with the numbers Helin posted you can see that the Scrapper easily does more damage than the Brute which is different from all the other powersets when comparing Brutes and Scrappers. Saying Rage isn't OP'd on Scrappers as is, is like saying Fulcrum Shift wouldn't be OP'd on Brutes because it isn't OP'd on Corrs, Trollers, and Defenders.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
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I wholeheartedly agree.|
Originally Posted by Fiery-Enforcer
If this is the case, then all the Scrapper sets should do more damage than the Brute version.
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| But, as we know that isn't the case. |
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| Did you even look at the numbers that HelinCarnate posted last page? The Scrapper would do more damage than the Brute at full Fury without even factoring in Criticals. |
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| I don't understand the argument that if it's not OP'd on Brutes then it won't be on Scrappers. Scrappers and Brutes don't work the same way, it's that simple. |
If Superstrength is too strong on Scrappers, then that means it's too strong on Brutes and too strong on Tankers. This is because the powerset is given too high a benefit relative to its fellows. The fact that Scrappers would illuminate this disparity more clearly is irrelevant.
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| I'll have to run some numbers myself, but with the numbers Helin posted you can see that the Scrapper easily does more damage than the Brute which is different from all the other powersets when comparing Brutes and Scrappers. Saying Rage isn't OP'd on Scrappers as is, is like saying Fulcrum Shift wouldn't be OP'd on Brutes because it isn't OP'd on Corrs, Trollers, and Defenders. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Actually, I would say that it is extremely relevant. If porting the power set to another melee AT that serves a similar function on teams illuminates an imbalance, than it needs to be fixed across the board. Broken is broken regardless of how it becomes noticed. Considering that Castle was messing around with changing Rage not long ago, I imagine he feels that it is overpowered on Brutes and Tanks, and that would be why we won't see it on Scrappers until he's happy with it.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
If Superstrength is too strong on Scrappers, then that means it's too strong on Brutes and too strong on Tankers. This is because the powerset is given too high a benefit relative to its fellows. The fact that Scrappers would illuminate this disparity more clearly is irrelevant. |
Essentially, you sir are correct, but probably not in the way you really wanted to be.
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Oh, I'm right in EXACTLY the way I wanted to be. I care nothing if SS is fixed. And if that's what's needed to proliferate it, let's have it.
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Originally Posted by Antigonus
Actually, I would say that it is extremely relevant. If porting the power set to another melee AT that serves a similar function on teams illuminates an imbalance, than it needs to be fixed across the board. Broken is broken regardless of how it becomes noticed. Considering that Castle was messing around with changing Rage not long ago, I imagine he feels that it is overpowered on Brutes and Tanks, and that would be why we won't see it on Scrappers until he's happy with it.
Essentially, you sir are correct, but probably not in the way you really wanted to be. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Nah, I think he knows the angle he's coming in on. Basically, Rage is borked. It was back then, it is now, on a Tanker and a Brute and will be on a Scrap. The end.|
Originally Posted by Antigonus
Essentially, you sir are correct, but probably not in the way you really wanted to be. |
*I wanted to make that last part a Dr. Seuss rhyme but I haven't the time*
I had forgotten about the Scaling Crit for Stalkers. I also remembered some other things so yeah they actually could have rage increase crit chance.
Regardless of that though, the quick and easy way to get SS ported is to replace rage with build up.
But I think I would like to see the crit chance changes made should the set get ported and have development time devoted to it.