Quote:
Have you noticed that the *STORES* in the game don't make you guess prices? Since the CONSIGNMENT HOUSE is very different from a STORE, your comparison is pointless.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Have you noticed when you go into the supermarket you aren't expected to guess the price of lettuce or cheese ? The checkout clerk doesn't play kreskin with your bill ?
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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Quote:
It sounds like you don't understand the effects of price caps. Frankly, the overwhelming majority of people don't. If an item is routinely selling for 300 million and a price cap of 100 million is instituted, many of the previous sellers will take their sales off-market so that they can still get 300 million for it. Even without price caps, plenty of sales happen off-market just to avoid the 10% fee. You don't think people would work around the market if it meant they could get triple the cash?
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Originally Posted by LuxunS
2. Price Caps - While most people are against this, I don't like wasting my playing time at the market. I also don't like farming quick AE maps for tickets, and SFs for merits. If everything was available for say no more then 100M i'd be happy as a pig in ****. Then I'd know exactly how long it would take me to outfit a toon, and I wouldn't be a slave to market trends or supply. It wouldn't be an overnight equip, but it wouldn't take forever either.
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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
The people who think they want price caps want a fixed-price store. Price caps on an actual market won't do what anyone who has suggested it thinks it would.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
I've never seen a crafting system or player market that was fun to deal with. I prefer fixed price stores of inexhaustible supply and somewhat reasonable prices (in standard currency rather than some ridiculously sparse Token currency accrued in miniscule amounts compared to prices by doing the most time-consuming and generally least fun tasks). I would've preferred such here with crafting and recipe/salvage drops simply being a potentially faster way to get the enhancements (and probably the *only* way to get purple enhancements).|
Originally Posted by Father Xmas
The market is a necessity when they added the crafting system with the assumption that there are players who enjoy crafting and would like to sell those items to other players.
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But I don't expect that it will change to what I'd consider a more reasonable system. It's firmly entrenched and largely inaccessible to me (even moreso now than it was awhile back when I actually managed to mostly slot out a character with sets) and likely to remain that way (or become even worse). And my wistful musings and not-particularly-serious grumblings on the matter are just as likely not to change.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Quote:
I understand that perfectly well. My post specifically said if there was an in-game store.
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Originally Posted by Ironblade
It sounds like you don't understand the effects of price caps. Frankly, the overwhelming majority of people don't. If an item is routinely selling for 300 million and a price cap of 100 million is instituted, many of the previous sellers will take their sales off-market so that they can still get 300 million for it. Even without price caps, plenty of sales happen off-market just to avoid the 10% fee. You don't think people would work around the market if it meant they could get triple the cash?
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Quote:
Based on what you're saying in the rest of your post, it doesn't sound like it's inaccessible to you. Instead, it sounds like you choose to make little and/or marginal use of it, because you don't enjoy it. I can't fault you for not enjoying it any more than I could argue with you about the types of pie you like the taste of, and I don't particularly expect you to partake of something you don't enjoy. However, assuming I understand you correctly, I don't really feel it's fair to describe that as inaccessible.
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
But I don't expect that it will change to what I'd consider a more reasonable system. It's firmly entrenched and largely inaccessible to me (even moreso now than it was awhile back when I actually managed to mostly slot out a character with sets) and likely to remain that way (or become even worse).
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Then why should anyone heed your comments on the workings of a market system?
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
I've never seen a crafting system or player market that was fun to deal with. I prefer fixed price stores of inexhaustible supply and somewhat reasonable prices....
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The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Not everyone likes crafting - most people are lazy and prefer to have everything handed out easily and they dont want to work for anything. Unfortunately for most people, MMOs by design are meant be to played for long periods, which necessitates some kind of carrot on a stick. By implementing multiple carrots and sticks and varied length sticks for the same carrots, MMOs cater to various player types.
There are many avenues to this game's rewards - none of which are out of reach if you have the motivation to acquire them.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
If I could instantly IO up every single one of my characters to the max, I'd probably have left the game long ago. A fixed price store would cause people to be able to do this because influence generation is not the problem, but rather the availability/demand of items causing the difference in price.
With the current system I have always something to look forward to, namely an IO build on an alt that will improve it and make it feel more powerful.
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
Quote:
Six of one and a half dozen of the other. Which is to say that only crazy people would do things they don't enjoy to entertain themselves, lest we forget that this is a game and its purpose is entertainment.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Based on what you're saying in the rest of your post, it doesn't sound like it's inaccessible to you. Instead, it sounds like you choose to make little and/or marginal use of it, because you don't enjoy it.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Then why should anyone heed your comments on the workings of a market system?
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I do think supply/demand needs to be ironed out a bit, but I doubt it ever will be, and thus whenever I go to look for lesser recipes that by all rights should be abundant and cheap the supply will be practically nonexistant. And I suppose Nethergoat will look out from the top of his trillion-Prestige high-rise single-owner base that he made by converting Influence/Infamy and say that everything is peachy keen. That's more along the lines of what I expect, anway. And I say that with a bemused smirk and no trace of bitterness (beyond my own natural daily bitterness content).
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Quote:
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Six of one and a half dozen of the other. Which is to say that only crazy people would do things they don't enjoy to entertain themselves, lest we forget that this is a game and its purpose is entertainment.
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- An inaccessible place is very difficult or impossible to reach. Adjective
- ...the remote, inaccessible areas of the Andes rainforests. + 'to'
- The route took us through scenery quite inaccessible to the motorist.
- inaccessibility Noun (uncountable) /'ɪnəksesɪb'ɪlɪti/
- Its inaccessibility makes food distribution difficult.
- If something is inaccessible, you are unable to see, use, or buy it. Adjective usu v-link ADJ
- Synonym unavailable
- Ninety-five per cent of its magnificent collection will remain inaccessible to the public. + 'to'
- We gained a rich supply of data which would normally be inaccessible.
- inaccessibility Noun (uncountable)
- ...the problem of inaccessibility of essential goods. + 'of'
- Someone or something that is inaccessible is difficult or impossible to understand or appreciate. Adjective usu v-link ADJ disapproval
- A lot of contemporary music is virtually inaccessible. + 'to'
- ...using language that is inaccessible to working people. + 'to'
- inaccessibility Noun (uncountable)
- ...the inaccessibility of his literature. + 'of'
Why do I care about the semantics? Because semantic manipulation of terms like this can be used to make a subtle argument. The claim that the market is "inaccessible" to you suggests a potentially serious design flaw. You see, I would agree that the market should be accessible to all players. I do believe that all players have that access, but your assertion makes that sound untrue. Likely at odds with you, I accept that once they have that access, what players can achieve with the market can be widely variable based on their interest, level of activity, and enjoyment of using the market. However, that variability is not the same as variability in their degree of access to the market. I do not believe that the market must appeal to everyone, because I know it cannot.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
They are readily accessible to anyone in the game who cares to make the effort.|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
When have I ever actually expected them to? I rarely even post about the Market, and when I do it's generally because an errant thread title caught my interest. But whether I like it or not, it's here, and I would prefer it to be readily accessible to more than just the IO Tycoons. That bit of mild hyperbole only exists because I wanted to say "IO Tycoons".
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You don't, fair enough, but that doesn't make them less accessible, it just means you've made a choice to skip that part of the game.
Anyone can make giant piles of inf and buy whatever they want simply by playing the game and selling their junk. Access to inf and thus l337 IOs is universal.
Quote:
| I do think supply/demand needs to be ironed out a bit, but I doubt it ever will be, and thus whenever I go to look for lesser recipes that by all rights should be abundant and cheap the supply will be practically nonexistant. |
Because it's been my experience that pretty much everything in the game is readily available for what the collective decides its 'worth'.
The exception being sub-max level stuff that's undersupplied for various mechanical reasons (faster leveling, most merits being rolled at the level cap, MA, etc).
Quote:
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And I suppose Nethergoat will look out from the top of his trillion-Prestige high-rise single-owner base that he made by converting Influence/Infamy and say that everything is peachy keen. That's more along the lines of what I expect, anway. And I say that with a bemused smirk and no trace of bitterness (beyond my own natural daily bitterness content).
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I will say everything is peachy keen because CoH provided roughly equal access to l337 gear to all its players, not just the hardcore grind-monkeys. Individual players can choose not to engage the system that delivers these goods, but access remains wide open for everyone else.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
I may be jumping into a shark tank here, but I'm gonna trust you guys not to dogpile me if I say something stupid... 
I absolutely loved the market 'minigame' in WoW. The one in CoX... I won't say I hate it, but it's not fun. After thinking about it a bit and reading this thread, I think I can articulate why.
The market in WoW has what I see as two crucial differences. First, rather than a limited number of slots and an unlimited auction time, it has an unlimited number of slots and a limited auction time. You could post a kersquillion items or bids, but none would ever last longer than 48 hours. Second, the game engine allows (even encourages) addons which can get/store auction data and enrich your auction house interface.
These things combine to create an extremely stable market. Although it differs from server to server (as the market isn't linked between servers), on an established server it's possible to post on the forum and ask what something should be selling for, and people who use the auction data addons can tell you quite specifically what a fair price for the item would be.
What I'm seeing in CoX, on the other hand, is a wildly volatile, unpredictable market, in which a new player like myself can't even begin to guess how to buy or sell anything. The only data one is able to obtain is a recent snapshot of sale prices; even within that snapshot, the price may vary hugely, and over the course of a day or two the same item might sell instantly for millions or languish unsold for double digits. Although I gather that certain high-ticket items have nearly fixed values, and that an experienced player may know what these values are, from the perspective of a new player, the market is a slot machine. I make a bet, I pull the handle; maybe I get rich, or maybe I just lose my quarter.
It's confusing, it's frustrating, my inventory's full and I have no clue whether it's junk or gold. I just want to play the dang game.
So in conclusion! (Yes, I have a point. ) Market caps are obviously silly. But it is possible for a game market to function freely without becoming random. I'm not sure how significant the effect of limited auction time versus limited auction slots is, but it seems clear that the availability of accumulated market data over time is extremely significant to market stability.
I don't think CoX would have to change to allow user-created addons. (In fact, I gather that would be ridiculously hard to do.) All they'd have to do would be to provide, say, a 7-day moving average rather than the last handful of sales. I believe prices would smooth out a lot, and new players would be less likely to burst into tears and vendor everything in a fit of depression. 
Quote:
Im not going to argue with you or tell you you're wrong. I see your forum date is Jul 10. Maybe youve been playing for 3 years and just now registered, but I suspect youre relatively new and are approaching the market with your WOW experiences as your guide.|
Originally Posted by Driver 8
What I'm seeing in CoX, on the other hand, is a wildly volatile, unpredictable market, in which a new player like myself can't even begin to guess how to buy or sell anything. The only data one is able to obtain is a recent snapshot of sale prices; even within that snapshot, the price may vary hugely, and over the course of a day or two the same item might sell instantly for millions or languish unsold for double digits. Although I gather that certain high-ticket items have nearly fixed values, and that an experienced player may know what these values are, from the perspective of a new player, the market is a slot machine. I make a bet, I pull the handle; maybe I get rich, or maybe I just lose my quarter.
It's confusing, it's frustrating, my inventory's full and I have no clue whether it's junk or gold. I just want to play the dang game. |
Im going to make a suggestion, the market is fairly predictable. The things that are expensive are the things you want to slot, the levels that sell are the max, the min, somewhere in the 30s for any particular IO that isnt a global or proc. Every other level doesnt move as well. IO sets that offer defense or recharge or both are the big sellers.
So to determine whats valuable in your inventory figure out what you want to slot if you had no budget concerns....
As for the market itself, the trends are predictable as well. Every night common salvage goes for a tenth of what it does during the day, rare salvage about half....
What Im saying is dont judge the market based on first glance, Ill bet the WOW market was intimidating when you first looked at it. Take a long-term patient position with everything and limit your initial scope to interest and observe....youll see the trends
Quote:
Yes, I'm a new player. I thing I said so in my post? Or did I forget to? I've been awake a long time. |
Originally Posted by Frogfather
Im not going to argue with you or tell you you're wrong. I see your forum date is Jul 10. Maybe youve been playing for 3 years and just now registered, but I suspect youre relatively new and are approaching the market with your WOW experiences as your guide.
Im going to make a suggestion, the market is fairly predictable. The things that are expensive are the things you want to slot, the levels that sell are the max, the min, somewhere in the 30s for any particular IO that isnt a global or proc. Every other level doesnt move as well. IO sets that offer defense or recharge or both are the big sellers. So to determine whats valuable in your inventory figure out what you want to slot if you had no budget concerns.... As for the market itself, the trends are predictable as well. Every night common salvage goes for a tenth of what it does during the day, rare salvage about half.... What Im saying is dont judge the market based on first glance, Ill bet the WOW market was intimidating when you first looked at it. Take a long-term patient position with everything and limit your initial scope to interest and observe....youll see the trends |
Anyway, been playing a couple weeks, and I was presenting a new player's perspective.The WoW market was intimidating on my first day. I'd never seen an in-game market before. I had no idea what was going on. I asked a few people, had a look at the forums, went back and looked at the items for sale, and slept on the idea. The next day I went back and it started to make sense. A few days later I got one of the auction addons, and was able to make informed decisions about what to sell, when, for how much.
Here, I've been asking around, talking it over with some very smart people, reading the forums like I'm studying for some kind of exam, doing controlled experiments, and I'm still baffled.
From what I've read on these forums, people take handwritten notes, they keep databases, they try to memorize things, or they just plain guess. It's either a lot of fiddly work, or it's an art.
Now, I'm not saying that's unfair or wrong. It's certainly a type of minigame you can play. It's one I'm guaranteed to be totally pants at, because my memory's full of holes, but that's my personal problem.
All I'm saying is that lack of data is what causes the market to fluctuate the way it does. In a stable market, an item wouldn't sell for 200k at 5pm and 20 at 3am. It would be worth roughly the same amount no matter the time of day.
...I hope I'm not coming off as hostile here. I'm a bit dismayed by the nature of the market, but I'm not trying to pick fights with those who claim to understand how it works. On the contrary, I need to learn from you guys, because it's pretty obvious I'm not going to figure it out on my own.
Quote:
I can only speak for a few but we were thinking "Why hasn't Uber put that superdyne addict on ignore yet?" |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Of course it would never occur to some folks that there are other folks who don't find any of this tedious or toiling. No, surely that couldn't be it. And of course it's fair to be indignant against something that one both perceives as a toiling tedium and as highly rewarding in terms of character progression. Surely it makes no sense that MMO developers might actually intend for something to take time to achieve, and that any game's set point for time/attention required to achieve time-consuming goals will be subjectively perceived on a player-by-player basis.
What were we all thinking? |
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Driver 8
Yes, I'm a new player. I thing I said so in my post? Or did I forget to? I've been awake a long time.
Anyway, been playing a couple weeks, and I was presenting a new player's perspective.The WoW market was intimidating on my first day. I'd never seen an in-game market before. I had no idea what was going on. I asked a few people, had a look at the forums, went back and looked at the items for sale, and slept on the idea. The next day I went back and it started to make sense. A few days later I got one of the auction addons, and was able to make informed decisions about what to sell, when, for how much. Here, I've been asking around, talking it over with some very smart people, reading the forums like I'm studying for some kind of exam, doing controlled experiments, and I'm still baffled. From what I've read on these forums, people take handwritten notes, they keep databases, they try to memorize things, or they just plain guess. It's either a lot of fiddly work, or it's an art. Now, I'm not saying that's unfair or wrong. It's certainly a type of minigame you can play. It's one I'm guaranteed to be totally pants at, because my memory's full of holes, but that's my personal problem. All I'm saying is that lack of data is what causes the market to fluctuate the way it does. In a stable market, an item wouldn't sell for 200k at 5pm and 20 at 3am. It would be worth roughly the same amount no matter the time of day. ...I hope I'm not coming off as hostile here. I'm a bit dismayed by the nature of the market, but I'm not trying to pick fights with those who claim to understand how it works. On the contrary, I need to learn from you guys, because it's pretty obvious I'm not going to figure it out on my own. |
For the record, you dont sound hostile, you sound reasonable. One thing about CoH forums, thoughtful polite questions will beget thoughtful polite answers
Im going to go on record and say I dont take notes. I dont know any more about any given niche than the day I try to work out of it. I still make millions daily and Im fine with that. I think youre trying to learn too much at one time.
Go look at any level 50 recipe (theres plenty of level 40 and level 35 recipes that are fine to make profits with as well.) Find one with a significant difference between the cost of the recipe and the cost of the IO that will cover your salvage and crafting costs. Make sure 4 or 5 of each move a day. Set low ball bids for recipe and salvage (2 of each for now)....go to sleep. Wake up the next day, craft and list for what you paid for the recipe+Crafting cost+Salvage cost+ 10 percent....I round that number up to the next million, add a harmless number like 12 at the end (ie list for 4,000,012 as opposed to 4M even) and wait a day.
Theres so much profit in the market its ridiculous.
Quote:
I'm not at all sure why you feel that those attributes are what create a stable market in WoW. In fact, long-standing bids have a tendancy to stabilize prices, so 48-hour maximums actually is a force against price stability.|
Originally Posted by Driver 8
The market in WoW has what I see as two crucial differences. First, rather than a limited number of slots and an unlimited auction time, it has an unlimited number of slots and a limited auction time. You could post a kersquillion items or bids, but none would ever last longer than 48 hours. Second, the game engine allows (even encourages) addons which can get/store auction data and enrich your auction house interface.
These things combine to create an extremely stable market. Although it differs from server to server (as the market isn't linked between servers), on an established server it's possible to post on the forum and ask what something should be selling for, and people who use the auction data addons can tell you quite specifically what a fair price for the item would be. |
CoH's market has high price volatility for a few reasons. Possibly the most strong influence on this is the short price history. People who do not spend time tracking long- and medium-term price trends base their bid and/or list prices on that history. But because that history is so short, it is subject to perturbation by even just one sale price that varies significantly from the other four. Some people will speculatively bid on low deviations and speculatively list on high deviations, and this can cause drift or even sudden shifts in the short-term trend.
Another contributor for CoH's price volatility is that there is a lot of currency in the system. I can't really compare this with WoW, as I don't play it, but I can see what happens here. Imagine you are have just huge piles of cash on hand, and want to buy a Paragon Widget: Bonus to Ego. You want one right now, and you want it crafted, and you have more money than you know what to do with, so you bid 3x the going rate. Then combine that with what I described above about the short history and its impact on price volatility, and consider what might happen.
Add in all of this that we also have some people selling things for much less than they are worth. This too is a potential shock to the price trend, though for popular or high-demand items this shock tends to be absorbed by flippers or other folks with low-ball but still "reasonable" price bids.
Finally, WoW has a much larger playerbase - closing on two orders of magnitude larger. That creates much more market activity, and more market activity (buyers and sellers) improves how well a market converges on stable prices.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
I've noticed that, and oh man do I like it. |
Originally Posted by Frogfather
For the record, you dont sound hostile, you sound reasonable. One thing about CoH forums, thoughtful polite questions will beget thoughtful polite answers
|
Quote:
| I think youre trying to learn too much at one time. |
I think what bothers me is that there seems to be so much to learn -- and memorize, which I'm terrible at -- simply to get started. At level 13, my recipe slots are full of things I can't afford to craft, and this is after I've been vendoring all common recipes up to this point. My salvage slots are full of the things I didn't try to sell because whenever I looked at the market snapshot it showed these bizarre enormous price swings, so I had no idea where to begin.
By 'bizarre enormous price swings' I mean something like this:
10,500
5
100
222,222
1
This is not what I would call useful market data.
Now, I've found the guides that tell you how to calculate your minimum price. I'm beginning to accept that I'm going to have to either print out the formulas and play with a pad and pencil to hand, or vendor everything and play at -1 level to avoid getting stomped (due to lack of useful enhancements). I guess what I just can't get past is this nagging feeling that there ought to be a better way. :|
Anyway, I'm totally threadjacking here, and I didn't mean to. All I wanted to do was point out that a moving average would be more useful than the last 5 sales (it's 5, right?), and that such a change in the interface would probably smooth out the market a bit and make it more accessible to new players.
Cuz I'm willing to bet most new players aren't rabid datavores like I am. Though most of them are probably better at math, because it's hard to be worse.
Quote:
Depends on the time stamps and current number for sale and bidding of the items but that could indicate if you are buying you can wait and get it for cheap (1, 5, 100) and you can sell for more but it would really depend on the timestamps and outstanding bids/listings.|
Originally Posted by Driver 8
By 'bizarre enormous price swings' I mean something like this: 10,500 5 100 222,222 1 This is not what I would call useful market data. |
I'd guess common or uncommon salvage that has 0 bidding and tons for sale with numbers like those and lacking the other two data points.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Quote:
Based on the presence of 1, 5 and 100 inf sales in that list, I am guessing you are looking at common salvage.|
Originally Posted by Driver 8
By 'bizarre enormous price swings' I mean something like this:
10,500 5 100 222,222 1 This is not what I would call useful market data. |
Common salvage prices are poster-children for the whole "more money than I need to buy that" phenomena I was discussing.
At level 50, a +2 boss is worth something like 64,000 inf. A +2 minion is worth something like 7000 inf. (I'm going from memory, so I may not be right on with those numbers, but they're in the right ballpark). A level 50 can earn 100,000 inf by taking a deep breath in a room of foes. You can make something like +10M inf selling a lot of level 50 recipes if you craft them first (selling an enhancement instead of a recipe). So a lot of people throw 1-3 extra digits at the price of common and uncommon salvage just to get it right now so they can craft the enhancement and get back to beating stuff up sooner. Spending 15 seconds on buying that piece of salvage probably costs more in lost earnings than they spend by paying 10x too much for it.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
I think we're in agreement here. As I said, I don't know how much effect auction length has on market stability. But that short history you're talking about is exactly the lack of data I was bemoaning.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I'm not at all sure why you feel that those attributes are what create a stable market in WoW. In fact, long-standing bids have a tendancy to stabilize prices, so 48-hour maximums actually is a force against price stability.
CoH's market has high price volatility for a few reasons. Possibly the most strong influence on this is the short price history. People who do not spend time tracking long- and medium-term price trends base their bid and/or list prices on that history. But because that history is so short, it is subject to perturbation by even just one sale price that varies significantly from the other four. Some people will speculatively bid on low deviations and speculatively list on high deviations, and this can cause drift or even sudden shifts in the short-term trend. Another contributor for CoH's price volatility is that there is a lot of currency in the system. I can't really compare this with WoW, as I don't play it, but I can see what happens here. Imagine you are have just huge piles of cash on hand, and want to buy a Paragon Widget: Bonus to Ego. You want one right now, and you want it crafted, and you have more money than you know what to do with, so you bid 3x the going rate. Then combine that with what I described above about the short history and its impact on price volatility, and consider what might happen. Add in all of this that we also have some people selling things for much less than they are worth. This too is a potential shock to the price trend, though for popular or high-demand items this shock tends to be absorbed by flippers or other folks with low-ball but still "reasonable" price bids. Finally, WoW has a much larger playerbase - closing on two orders of magnitude larger. That creates much more market activity, and more market activity (buyers and sellers) improves how well a market converges on stable prices. |
If limited auction slots have an effect, it may well be influencing those very low prices you mention. If you can only sell, say, 9 things at a time, and your inventory is full -- and since there's no bank in this game, unless you have a SG with space in its salvage racks, you have to sell things to get them out of your bag -- then you're going to try to get rid of them fast. I think it's very tempting to post things for 1 inf, because that way if anyone's bidding at all, the item's gone and your slot's free. And once you figure out that lowest price gets highest bid, it looks like a gamble worth taking. So maybe you end up with a fat wallet, or maybe the sale history of the item fills up with 1's, which pretty much wipes out any useful data they might get on what the thing's worth. That's my theory, anyway.
I don't think WoW's larger playerbase is a significant factor, though, because its markets are per-faction per-server, whereas CoX's are per-faction cross-server. Is that correct? If so -- I don't have numbers handy, but I think the population on one WoW server doesn't exceed the playerbase of CoX.
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How many WoW servers are there? There are something like 10 million WoW subscribers, while CoH has something like 100,000 subscribers.
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Originally Posted by Driver 8
I don't think WoW's larger playerbase is a significant factor, though, because its markets are per-faction per-server, whereas CoX's are per-faction cross-server. Is that correct? If so -- I don't have numbers handy, but I think the population on one WoW server doesn't exceed the playerbase of CoX.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Originally Posted by SwellGuy
I'd guess common or uncommon salvage that has 0 bidding and tons for sale with numbers like those and lacking the other two data points.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Based on the presence of 1, 5 and 100 inf sales in that list, I am guessing you are looking at common salvage.
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If I vendor it all, I can't afford the enhancements I need -- keep in mind, I'm not a good player yet, I'm still just kinda walking into walls and facerolling, trying to figure it out, so I need all the bonuses I can get. With that in mind (and if folks don't mind me threadjacking like this), can you suggest a simple rule of thumb for making an adequate profit without having to sit on full bags?
I'm not looking to make millions fast. Just slot up to the point where I can play at level and not have to be carried. This is with normal play, no farming. (I like AE missions, they're fun, but I'm playing each interesting story once, not finding a lucrative one and doing it over and over, which is what I believe is meant by AE farming.)
I'm against price caps because if everything good went off-market it would be a MASSIVE PAIN IN THE BUTT to acquire anything. Placing a bid is way way easier and faster than trying to find someone willing to sell what you want to buy. I don't care about your profits. I want my stuff.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World