Super Boost: Excuse for bad manners?


Adeon Hawkwood

 

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If I ever joined a team where a Kinetic said "Ask for SB and then thank me for it" then I could not hit the "quit team" button fast enough.

On the flip side, I have no tolerance, when playing a kin, for the "sb plz" crowd either.

The exception to my "don't thank buffers" rule is Emps with AB. I'm a downright butt-kisser to them, sending tells expressing my appreciation.


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I don't attack enemies until my team asks me to AND thanks me for the damage I've inflicted on them.


 

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Originally Posted by Deacon_NA View Post
The exception to my "don't thank buffers" rule is Emps with AB. I'm a downright butt-kisser to them, sending tells expressing my appreciation.
I generally announce when I get on the team, "Now accepting bribes for AB!"



(then I usually just hit whomever as it recharges - but it's funny when people take that seriously and actually offer things!)


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it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Athanatosis View Post
Hate to bring up WoW, but when the new team took over recently they changed all the 2 minute buffs to 15-30 minute buffs because they realized how annoying it was for people to have to put them up all the time.

As it stands, without taking much away from their overall performance kins can keep the entire team speed boosted indefinitely. A lot of people expect as much from them, or at least close to it. It makes buff classes overall less desirable to play because it's so annoying having to buff that often. Either you take away from the team's potential to succeed or to steamroll, or you put yourself out and deal with the constant annoyance of buffing 7 other people so frequently.

I see where you're coming from but what you're saying is that SB should take away from the overall performance of a class, in the name of balance, because they have to spend so much time keeping it up if they want to have it up most of the time. That's not right. That's not fun for anyone. Would anyone really complain if SB was exactly the same just with a much longer duration? I don't think that's the kind of "overpowered" people get jealous over. It's only beneficial to them... Much more kins would use SB and keep it up (without even expecting people to beg for it, like OP!) The only complaint I could see is that the other buff classes still have to buff everyone every two minutes, in which case they should just change most of those buffs to have longer durations as well.

Hell, I'd even be happy with them just making it a "buff one person and everyone else gets it" buff. That way it's less of a hassle for the person in charge of it.
I actually wouldn't mind the buff's being a bit longer myself, possibly just extending it to the same duration as most shields. However, when comparing to WoW, it's also fairly important to remember that most of WoW's buffs are incredibly weak in comparison to CoX's buffs ... not to mention that over here the buffs stack.


To the OP:

Personally, I've just generally viewed speed boost as a part of my responsibility when playing a kinetic. Sometimes I get thanked, and that's cool. Most of the time I don't, and that's cool too... I don't generally expect thanks for fulfilling my role. I also don't generally always have it up on everyone 100% of the time ... probably a good 80-90% though.


 

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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
I think the duration should be longer. Agreed.

The way I'd achieve it though is to make the base duration the same but have the power refresh duration if the original caster hits them with Transfusion (the AoE heal) while the power is active. That way people couldn't just gather under the Atlas Statue and get their 30 minute long buffs (a significant problem in some games). You'd have to actually stick wit the buffer. This also protects buffing ATs from getting stuck buffing teams at mission entrances and then left behind so the "real" ATs can go take care of business.

I'd approach Force Field, Sonic Res (refresh if they touch your big bubbles), Thermal (refreshed if you hit them with the AoE heal) and Cold Dom (refreshed if you hit them with Arctic Fog) the same way to reduce clicking. But I am probably just dreaming.
I love this idea. Very creative and it would work well.

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Originally Posted by Siolfir View Post
Given that their entire reward structure is based on how long something takes - for the merit system explicitly, and drop rates are based on kill speed - having less downtime due to constant Speed Boost is something that (IMO) they feel should take a certain amount of attention (ie, time) to maintain.
That argument does make sense. I simply don't think it's fair to set it up like that. If they give people the ability to keep SB up at all times, it becomes something they are inclined or expected to do, because them keeping SB up provides a bigger boost to the team than pretty much anything else they could be doing with that time. (Besides maybe spamming FS.) So, they set up an annoying system of giving people the ability to keep up buffs on everyone 24/7 as long as they're willing to annoy the hell out of themselves while everyone else is having a great time. That's unfair to buffing classes in general.


 

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See, I just toss SB out as needed. I can see bubbles that significantly increase the teams survival and can turn a meh team into steamrollers, but SB is annoying to put out, doesn't last very long, and doesn't do as much for survival. The recharge buff is nice, yes, but most teams don't need it. A well built character shouldn't be dependent on an outside buff to be capable of performing whatever task it is they are made to do.

I see SB as a recovery buff, and I will toss it out when someone's end is running out, unless they specifically ask that I don't. Even then, I toss out a disclaimer that in the event that we are fighting an AV or GM or some such, if blue is running out or the DPS isn't enough, I will toss it out. Most folks don't do much moving around during those fights, so the +speed won't really be a problem that outweighs the increase in DPS from the +recharge, as well as the fact that folks can keep going longer with better recovery.


 

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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
I think the duration should be longer. Agreed.

The way I'd achieve it though is to make the base duration the same but have the power refresh duration if the original caster hits them with Transfusion (the AoE heal) while the power is active. That way people couldn't just gather under the Atlas Statue and get their 30 minute long buffs (a significant problem in some games). You'd have to actually stick wit the buffer. This also protects buffing ATs from getting stuck buffing teams at mission entrances and then left behind so the "real" ATs can go take care of business.

I'd approach Force Field, Sonic Res (refresh if they touch your big bubbles), Thermal (refreshed if you hit them with the AoE heal) and Cold Dom (refreshed if you hit them with Arctic Fog) the same way to reduce clicking. But I am probably just dreaming.
I completely missed your post Tex. I like it.


 

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Originally Posted by Athanatosis View Post
Hate to bring up WoW, but when the new team took over recently they changed all the 2 minute buffs to 15-30 minute buffs because they realized how annoying it was for people to have to put them up all the time.

As it stands, without taking much away from their overall performance kins can keep the entire team speed boosted indefinitely. A lot of people expect as much from them, or at least close to it. It makes buff classes overall less desirable to play because it's so annoying having to buff that often. Either you take away from the team's potential to succeed or to steamroll, or you put yourself out and deal with the constant annoyance of buffing 7 other people so frequently.

I see where you're coming from but what you're saying is that SB should take away from the overall performance of a class, in the name of balance, because they have to spend so much time keeping it up if they want to have it up most of the time. That's not right. That's not fun for anyone. Would anyone really complain if SB was exactly the same just with a much longer duration? I don't think that's the kind of "overpowered" people get jealous over. It's only beneficial to them... Much more kins would use SB and keep it up (without even expecting people to beg for it, like OP!) The only complaint I could see is that the other buff classes still have to buff everyone every two minutes, in which case they should just change most of those buffs to have longer durations as well.

Hell, I'd even be happy with them just making it a "buff one person and everyone else gets it" buff. That way it's less of a hassle for the person in charge of it.
it all falls in the little category know as balance. if they up the duration they will take away from the performance to balance it out. and your "buff one person...", what happens when there are people not in range of the person who got the buff? do they still get it or are they screwed seeing as how you just spent 1/3 of your end giving out the buff?


 

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A character that can't benefit from either +speed, +recharge, +recovery or all three is more often an indication of not pushing the envelope hard enough than of having a good build, in my experience.

I can empathise with it being a tedious buff to keep up for some players and I think not using it 100% of the time because one feels it is tedious is a valid reason. However, to try to legitimise restraint in using it by claiming it's not as good as it really is is rather silly considering the overwhelming amount of evidence that shows otherwise.


 

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Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan View Post
I would be more inclined to agree with this assessment if not for the existence of Fortitude, which actually does work this way.

I would see no balance issue whatsoever in normalizing low-recharge ally buff durations at 4 minutes. Shorter is clearly annoying; longer and people start asking to be able to opt out, which while not entirely unreasonable is a headache I doubt the devs want to create for themselves at the moment.
I'm not sure what you're getting at with Fortitude. Fortitude is a powerful buff, that lasts for 2 minutes and has a base recharge time of 60 seconds. It can't be maintained on an entire team like SB can. Fortitude is a great example how increasing the buff duration of SB would result in balancing it somewhere else. Either by decreasing the buff amount or vastly increasing the recharge time. Would the overall player reaction be positive or negative if SB's duration was increased to 4 minutes, but its recharge was 60 or 120 seconds instead of 2 seconds?


 

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Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen View Post
True... But what are you willing to give up for that increased convenience? Quadruple the duration and cut the endurance and recharge buff from +50% to +20%?

Speed Boost is a powerful buff, that lasts a short time. Pure speculation on my part, but I would guess the intent behind the duration, is that it is not intended to be used as a perma buff to an entire team, rather than being used only when necessary on a limited number of team members. Yes, it CAN be used to keep an entire team constantly buffed, but requires sacrifices on the part of the buffer. Take away that, and something, somewhere has to be given up in exchange for the sake of balance.
My opinion on this is that if making it easier to keep the entire team buffed (whether by making it an PBAoE buff that doesn't affect the caster or simply increasing the duration) would mean the effects needed to be nerfed then they need to be nerfed now. It is perfectly possible to keep the entire team SB'd 100% of the time, it's just annoying to do so. So if making it easier means the power is to good then that means the power is being balanced around being inconvenient to use and IMHO that is just poor design.

I don't mind powers being balanced around being HARD to use (such as Warburg Nukes and Vanguad HVAS which require a time commitment before hand for every usage) but a power that is more powerful simply because it's inconvenient to use isn't really balanced, it's just inconvenient and likely to cause fights (and large forum flamewars).


 

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Instead of making the buff last longer, why not make it a toggle aura? Then it's fire-and-forget, but only if your team is within maybe 60 yards of you, like the leadership auras? It would still be limited without being such an utter pain to manage every 2 minutes.


 

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Originally Posted by WarronPeace View Post
See, I just toss SB out as needed. I can see bubbles that significantly increase the teams survival and can turn a meh team into steamrollers, but SB is annoying to put out, doesn't last very long, and doesn't do as much for survival. The recharge buff is nice, yes, but most teams don't need it. A well built character shouldn't be dependent on an outside buff to be capable of performing whatever task it is they are made to do.
As a blaster that loves T9 Nova's I would dissagree. SB allows me to run into a large crowd and drop half of them, stun the other half, pop a pair of blues to keep working and have my end back up fast and then have my Nova back up as quick as possible. Sure, I work fine without the recharge, but with it I'm devastating.


 

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Originally Posted by Diggis View Post
Sure, I work fine without the recharge, but with it I'm devastating.
This.

Everyone benefits from SB, and a lot. Lightning rods and blaster nukes more often kill more foes. Dark Regenerations and Healing Flames more often keep tanks alive. More endurance keeps the toggle debuffs on longer. Scrappers might fall into higher power attack chains. An extra person on the team might get fortitude. Players relying on Power Sink or Consume no longer waste that animation time and do more killing. Maybe the phantom army becomes permanent now. That warshade summons a fourth or fifth fluffy ball of doom.

And the stone tank can get to the mob before the team finishes it off. I guess everybody wins.


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I personally dont like to play and try to avoid power sets like Kinetics and Empathy because of the rude behavior iv seen other players use agenst the player with that set.

Iv seen a Empathy get kicked from a team I was on before because it couldnt keep the entire 8 man team alive on a +4 Mission.Iv also seen way to many people on a Kin get yelled at for not giving out a Speed Boost the moment it dropped on another player.

Bottom Line for me.I dislike playing a power set that people belive is the end all and only way to play the game.I also wont make a character if it cant solo a 8 man mission by its self with just SOs.

I find the rudest people in the game to be those who suck without the best buffs or heals in the game.They perfer to blame you for there issues.


 

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Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen View Post
I'm not sure what you're getting at with Fortitude.
What I'm getting at with Fortitude is that its non-trivial recharge time means that it is not merely tiresome but actually impossible to apply it continuously to your entire team, and that it is balanced around that impossibility. The developers have shown in Fortitude what a buff that is intended to be used selectively would look like - it has a long recharge, which forces a decision on who should get it and when. SB does not force that decision through its design; it's just annoying. Balancing around limited availability is a reasonable mechanic: it's used for Fortitude and a number of other high-value single target buffs. Balancing around annoyance is just a bad idea: when a game forces a decision between having fun yourself and letting other people have fun, that's a recipe for disaster.


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My code of conduct for sb is as follows:
Keep asking for it annoyingly, you get none. And I tell people when theyve brought it to this point.

I never sb in the middle of a fight. Ask for sb in the middle of the fight, see rule one.

I sb on transition, its not hard to notice either. See those 2 guys that just zoomed by you on their way to the next mob? Thats because they stayed close enough to me to get hit by the sb bug. They may not have been the first to jump out of the old mob towards the next, but their patience obviously payed off.

If you stayed next to me and said thanks after I tossed you the sb, Im likely to look for your name first on the next round of applications.

I rarely ever have trouble keeping a granite sb'd up because of point 3. They suck at mob transitions (unless they know whats up with tp) so its usually easy to hit em with it. I have only ran into one conflict with a stoner and it was because of point 2. Dude continuously asked for sb mid fight after I told him it wasnt gonna happen, and he was being a ***** about it, so I quit the team. Not 5 minutes later I had tells coming from half the team asking if they could cruise with me.

I realize how big of a deal SB is, especially with stoners, and so I try to toss it out as much as my sanity allows. However, my plant/kin is a busy toon, and I have more important things going on than sb'ing the team, so if it becomes a problem I cut em off.

To the OP: having people ask for sb like little children would get on my nerves, from either side of the situation. However, if you let it be known its that way from the start, theres not much room for complaining from anyone. So yeah...let it be known.


 

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<QR>
To the OP: If you're going to make a team-oriented character, why in the world would you demand that others on the team have to ask you to actually use your team-oriented powers or you won't do it? That's downright silly and to be honest more than a little rude on your part.

When I'm on my tank I don't expect to be asked to take the alpha or hold the mobs' attention. I do it because I rolled a tank. Conversely, when I'm on my /Kin controller I don't expect people to have to ask me to use my /kin powers. I knew when I made a /kin that being a one on a large team would be very hectic. I have only myself to blame if I don't like it.

Would it be reasonable for an empath to demand the same as you for every single heal or buff they cast? If not, then why? I'd love to know where this double standard came from.


 

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No big deal OP, I don't ever ask for speedboost, having played a Kin to the cap and hated every second of the set. I would just assume you were yet another worthless fire/kin who had never learned to play with a team. Functionally, you're indistinguishable from such a character if you demand that everyone say please and thank you for your buffs.

I guess what I am trying to say behind the snark is that you should use your damned buffs unless asked not to, not withhold your buffs like some petulant baby until everyone kowtows to your ego and fulfills your petty need to feel important in a superhero video game.


 

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I thank the blasters and scrappers for killing everything after each spawn...

when people say "thanks" when I use buffs on them on my cold/therm/kin I say "for what?" at which point they say for the buffs, and I say, "I'm just using my powers, same as you"

People that need to be thanked for buffing are worse than people that don't buff at all.


 

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As a kin on a team, I play like SB is the most important thing I can do. Fulcrum shift is #2, and transference has its importance in especially long fights. When we are really rolling, I don't even cast my imps, usually. I rarely do anything but SB and FS. People keep saying how their toons are "busy" doing lots of things, and I have to wonder what you could be doing that is more game-changing than SB+FS? Sure, I could drop some Fire Cages for some minuscule DoT, or I could keep SB on the scrapper so his HUGE single damage attack comes back quicker. Most times, teamwide DPS is MUCH higher if I don't attack.


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Originally Posted by Frosticus View Post
I thank the blasters and scrappers for killing everything after each spawn...

when people say "thanks" when I use buffs on them on my cold/therm/kin I say "for what?" at which point they say for the buffs, and I say, "I'm just using my powers, same as you"

People that need to be thanked for buffing are worse than people that don't buff at all.
Holy crap, this.

This is a very good point. Don't thank me for buffs; don't thank me for using taunt; don't thank me for using beanbag.

You can, however, thank me for choosing to give fortitude to your blaster instead of the tank.

You can thank me for taunting the specific mobs that were about to smite you.

You can thank me for beanbagging the sapper.



tl;dr: Don't thank me for using powers. Thank me for using them well.


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Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
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Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
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Originally Posted by RottenLuck View Post
On my Kin I often ask before a mission "Okay anyone don't want SB?"
This is far more appropriate (as well as being what I try to do.) Insisting on asking and being thanked? *boot*

You want to drill "please" and "thank you" into someone, do it to your kids, not a random PUG of 10-60 year olds.


 

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I've found that many kins get very annoyed when I ask for SB. I usually just make a statement that I would like SB, and leave it at that unless I see other team members getting it when I'm not.


@Joshua.

 

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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison View Post
tl;dr: Don't thank me for using powers. Thank me for using them well.
Exactly, if someone goes above and beyond then by all means let them know they are doing a good job.

I'll no more thank you for speed boosting me than you will thank me for casting sleet on every spawn. Nor should you.