NCsoft Q1 2010 financials out: ouch.


1VB_FIST

 

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Originally Posted by Valgrisk View Post
Lol. WoW's phasing technology. Not instancing, the phasing.
Lord of the Rings Online did it long before WoW.

On Super Sidekicking: apologies, my information was wrong. I was told by a WoW player that WoW was doing something like that. I don't play the game.


 

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On Super Sidekicking: apologies, my information was wrong. I was told by a WoW player that WoW was doing something like that. I don't play the game.
Fair enough. I apologize for coming off harsher than I meant - the closest thing they have is something akin to a leveling pact, but that's granting levels, not sidekicking.


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Should they be looking to sell more things in a cash shop to make up the difference? Not that I actually think the game is taking a nose dive. According to the graph someone posted earlier it just looked like a slow attrition rate.

I would be willing to buy teleporters, storage and a larger plot for my bases.


 

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Originally Posted by Valgrisk View Post
Oh yeah, let's talk about their new Dungeon Finder system. You know, that thing that will assemble groups from a group of servers automatically and slap them all in a dungeon together. Finds a healer, DPS, and a tank. Yeah, it's nice. Best addition to any MMO.
DDO has had this for years. As well as other games.


 

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Originally Posted by Dalantia View Post
Fair enough. I apologize for coming off harsher than I meant - the closest thing they have is something akin to a leveling pact, but that's granting levels, not sidekicking.
Must have been the level pact and I misremembered, then.

But when I say WoW doesn't innovate, I don't mean it insultingly. WoW is very very good at what it does - adopting the best innovations from throughout the MMO industry and blending them together into a whole, "Good Parts Edition" MMO. There's absolutely nothing wrong with WoW's model. It's more-or-less Japan's economic model, and they're the second largest economy in the world.

But it takes more people than innovation off of existing systems, so it's not something a smaller studio like Paragon can even attempt.


 

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Originally Posted by SwellGuy View Post
Honestly I am not sure whether that proves or disproves his point.
Just saying that it exists in-game lore for groups to stand on both sides of the law.


 

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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan View Post
Name an innovation WoW has made.

Don't worry about it, I already know you can't.
Here's where the term 'innovation' gets tricky. WoW is like the iPod - they didn't invent the thing wholesale, but they did polish things up to a high, usable sheen. That's evolutionary innovation, but a lot of people appear to expect revolutionary innovation.

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Among Paragon's greatest feats to date is the Super Sidekicking system, [snip] and the Power Customisation system, which CO beat them to the punch with only by having the freedom to use a brand new engine that could implement the system from the start, rather than having to be hacked in afterwards; the idea, however, was still CoHV's.
Funnily enough, ChampO actually had super-sidekicking and announced it before CoH/V did. As for power customisation, the idea belongs to Cryptic either way. It may have been implemented in the Paragon Studios era, but it was certainly raised and discussed during the Cryptic era.

Paragon Studios should certainly be attempting to innovate - MA is seen as an innovative system. However, innovation doesn't always mean better and even good innovations are not necessarily adopted by the mainstream.


 

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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan View Post
Among Paragon's greatest feats to date is the Super Sidekicking system, which was quickly adopted by WoW, ...
Pity someone else did it first in Final Fantasy 11 (Aug 2008 for Sony).


Tyger (50), Mutation-Controller Mind/FF - oldest Mind/FF on Union
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Originally Posted by Dispari View Post
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.

 

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Nice discussion.

And I have a new fave poster to look out for now (*waves at Arcanaville*)!

Just a slightly different viewpoint from someone who's worked in a number of different subscriber-driven industries in his (way too long) career.

Do those numbers show a healthy or unhealthy business? Not sure. They only really show what has already happened and the last few quarters have been pretty pants for most businesess. One of the key indicators of the future health of a business is what they're doing TODAY that will make the future better than the past. It's one of the things that the clever investors look at when making their investment decisions.

So what can you do to ensure the long term viability of a subscription-led business? Stepping away from the costs side of the business which others have already commented on, what about the revenue side? There's broadly 3 things to try:
1. Keep your current subscribers as long as possible
2. Get your current subscribers to pay you more money
3. Get new subscribers.

Unsurprisingly these become steadily harder and more expensive to achieve from the first idea to the last.

From where I sit number 1 is addressed by the regular pulse of new issues and a bit by things like community initiatives and in-game events.

Number 2 is Super-Boosters and possibly even part of the rataionale behind CoV and GR. CoV was a while ago but Super Boosters are a relatively recent addition to the game. This looks like an increase in "Good Marketing" to me. Whether you like the term or not, "Good Marketing" = "Healthy Business".

Number 3 is often, in some businesses, too expensive to do through deliberate marketing. If it costs $300 to acquire a new customer and they usually only spend $200 before leaving you then that wasn't a great investment of $300. If, however, 1 & 2 together are driving up the average value of a subscriber beyond that $300 mark then all of a sudden advertising starts to become worth it.

It's obviously just my opinion but the marketing of this game looks like to me like it's grown up a lot in the last couple of years. If they can reach that tipping point where they can afford to go into the market and buy those new subscribers then the last few quarters' numbers will become irrelevant.


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Originally Posted by UnSub View Post

It's a result that is probably explained by the lack of content releases in Q1 2010 and that players may have adopted a 'wait and see' approach about Going Rogue.

DOOOOM comments incoming in 5, 4, 3, 2, ...
I have most certainly adopted a 'wait and see' approach. The lack of community relations and advertising concerning GR have made me VERY skeptical. The last few issues have been nothing but fluff yet branded with the words "new content." Now GR comes along and we are told it's an expansion with loads of content yet we have been given little more information for several months. Beginning to think the claims of "loaded with content" are a bit exagerated. I haven't jumped on the doom wagon yet, but advertising/marketing has certainly made me a skeptic.

I'm pretty sure the poor implementation of i13 PvP and AE had a dramatic affect on subscribes as well. Funny how the problems with both i13 and AE could have been avoided if the devs had listened and reacted to the warnings from the greater community.


 

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Originally Posted by stfrn View Post
DDO has had this for years. As well as other games.
I remember Everquest's first version of the team assembler in 2004. While not a cross server thing it was definitely a quick team building feature. I don't recall the name of the expansion but it was before CoH even launched.

One thing all the other MMOs I tried and didn't like had was a corpse run. WoW's was not as bad as EQs but I hate corpse runs. I am so glad we don't have that.


total kick to the gut

This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.

 

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I wonder if anyone has ever made a video of naked character dragging a corpse to Benny Hill music.


 

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Originally Posted by Tokyo View Post
I have most certainly adopted a 'wait and see' approach. The lack of community relations and advertising concerning GR have made me VERY skeptical. The last few issues have been nothing but fluff yet branded with the words "new content."
I know for a fact that not everyone shares the opinion that "the last few issues have been nothing but fluff". Various people have various preferences, and all that.

However with numbers down, it is an excellent time to ask people to survery themselves and their friends and ask for an updated list of what they consider 'real content' and things that would bring them back (or in for the first time) for the long haul.


Story Arcs I created:

Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!

Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!

Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!

 

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We had "real content" in Issue 17; the story arcs, including new maps and foes and stories and forebodings of things to come are all new content.
We also had the new explores, Market interface overhaul and so on.

We feel impatient because we've "done it all". A new player entering the game can't "do it all" because there is so much in the game; all the arcs, zones, associated arcs and the new stuff. On top of that there are systems like Inventions, the Market, PvP, costumes...it's all a timesink. You just need to decide which parts of the timesink are for you and whether you feel it's worth paying money to access them.

In my case right now, the answer is yes. It's still "fun". I don't know if new people find it fun, enough to level to the cap and see the content and try new things...but hopefully they do.

It's easy to lose sight of things when you're trying to purple out Alt #50 but there's still a lot of stuff in the game. And hey, getting bored happens too. That's why you try other stuff, decide if you like that better, etc.

I just hope there are enough of us keeping subs active to keep the content coming at a fair pace.


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Originally Posted by Tokyo View Post
I'm pretty sure the poor implementation of i13 PvP and AE had a dramatic affect on subscribes as well. Funny how the problems with both i13 and AE could have been avoided if the devs had listened and reacted to the warnings from the greater community.
The only reason the community is always right, is because the community says everything. ED is good, and its bad. PvP changes are necessary, and unwanted. The AE needs rewards to succeed, and it will destroy the game with them.

In other words, the player community is always right because it is also always wrong. The only reason why this is not always obvious is because most people perceive themselves to either be with the vocal majority, or the silent majority, or the singular voice of reason. So its supposed to be obvious to the devs that they should listen to the vocal majority unless there is a silent majority they are drowning out, except when everyone is obviously wrong and they are supposed to ignore all of them and listen to the singular experts.

Or to put it more bluntly, the devs should always listen to me when everyone else says they agree with me, me when everyone else agrees with me but doesn't say so, and me when everyone else is wrong. How hard is that?


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Or to put it more bluntly, the devs should always listen to me when everyone else says they agree with me, me when everyone else agrees with me but doesn't say so, and me when everyone else is wrong. How hard is that?
This Arcanaville post has said it better than I could.


 

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
the devs should always listen to me when everyone else says they agree with me, me when everyone else agrees with me but doesn't say so, and me when everyone else is wrong. How hard is that?
CoH would be 40 times bigger then WoW if the Devs could just follow those simple guidelines!!!


 

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Or to put it more bluntly, the devs should always listen to me when everyone else says they agree with me, me when everyone else agrees with me but doesn't say so, and me when everyone else is wrong. How hard is that?
Yeah, I can't really fault this, either. I don't always agree with Arcanaville, but her decisions probably stand the best chance of preserving and growing the game even when I disagree with them.

(Note for the humor-challenged: Yes, I understand Arcanaville was kidding. And yes, I think she makes more effective decisions than me.)


"Bombarding the CoH/V fora with verbosity since January, 2006"

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A CoH Comic: Kid Eros in "One Light"

 

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Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails View Post
I know for a fact that not everyone shares the opinion that "the last few issues have been nothing but fluff". Various people have various preferences, and all that.

However with numbers down, it is an excellent time to ask people to survery themselves and their friends and ask for an updated list of what they consider 'real content' and things that would bring them back (or in for the first time) for the long haul.
I'm not going to say this is useless because such activities aren't, but even if you had a million people say the exact same thing and pledge to subscribe forever because of it, there is little to no chance it could be implemented in less than a year.

They already have their production schedule planned out for at least the next year and if they don't then shame on them. Small changes might happen that aren't planned, but by and large w/e they have in store is more than written in pencil.

So unless all these people being surveyed all agree that the ability to switch sides, power up via the incarnate system, play a few new sets and enjoy another round of proliferation then I'm afraid they aren't going to see what they want to see any time soon


 

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You know, as avid a soloer as I am, I suspect I might still make use of some kind of insta-team feature similar to what you get when you join servers in your average online FPS. One of my biggest problems with teaming in an MMO setting is that it's an inherently social setting, and if I'm going to interact with people in a social setting, it's going to be for the sake of interacting with people, NOT because I need more warm bodies.

In a counter-intuitive, roundabout way, a completely impersonal, anti-social means for building teams where people join the same way they ride on the bus would actually shift the nature of the setting and convince me to team more. I wouldn't give a crap about my team-mates, of course, just the same way I don't give a crap about my team-mates in, say, Battlefield 2142. If they die, tough. If I can resuscitate them, then I will. More points for me. If I can't, too bad so sad.

It'd get me to team more, but I fear what it will do to team spirit in general and team performance in particular. If online FPS games are any indication, most people are idiots who are useless to the team.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Frosticus View Post
I'm not going to say this is useless because such activities aren't, but even if you had a million people say the exact same thing and pledge to subscribe forever because of it, there is little to no chance it could be implemented in less than a year.
True; so say it now if you want a reasonable chance of seeing it a year from now.

It just irritates me when people fault the Devs for not being psychic (not saying you personally are doing that).


Story Arcs I created:

Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!

Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!

Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
You know, as avid a soloer as I am, I suspect I might still make use of some kind of insta-team feature similar to what you get when you join servers in your average online FPS. One of my biggest problems with teaming in an MMO setting is that it's an inherently social setting, and if I'm going to interact with people in a social setting, it's going to be for the sake of interacting with people, NOT because I need more warm bodies.

In a counter-intuitive, roundabout way, a completely impersonal, anti-social means for building teams where people join the same way they ride on the bus would actually shift the nature of the setting and convince me to team more. I wouldn't give a crap about my team-mates, of course, just the same way I don't give a crap about my team-mates in, say, Battlefield 2142. If they die, tough. If I can resuscitate them, then I will. More points for me. If I can't, too bad so sad.

It'd get me to team more, but I fear what it will do to team spirit in general and team performance in particular. If online FPS games are any indication, most people are idiots who are useless to the team.
I am also an avid soloer But, if I'm in one of my rare moods where I want to team with strangers, I'll find an active zone in my level range and then just start inviting anyone that says they're looking for a team. No concern for powersets/AT/level. Just taking whoever in broadcast that's lft.

To me, that sounds a lot like what you're looking for, only automated by the game itself.


 

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Or to put it more bluntly, the devs should always listen to me when everyone else says they agree with me, me when everyone else agrees with me but doesn't say so, and me when everyone else is wrong. How hard is that?
Something about this statement made me tingle in a way the text of another woman shouldn't do...


 

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Originally Posted by ThePill View Post
I am also an avid soloer But, if I'm in one of my rare moods where I want to team with strangers, I'll find an active zone in my level range and then just start inviting anyone that says they're looking for a team. No concern for powersets/AT/level. Just taking whoever in broadcast that's lft.

To me, that sounds a lot like what you're looking for, only automated by the game itself.
Well, not quite. It's the human element that makes it personal for me. Maybe it's because I haven't worked the kind of job that would desensitise me to other people like, say, retail or customer support (I do tech for the university here and teach classes), so every time I have to interact with people, it turns into a social experience. The difference is precisely that the system does it for me. There's a mediator doing everything, so I can just put on my blinders and focus on myself and my own actions.

I'm just trying to compare experiences and trying to pin down why I have no problem playing with other people in Battlefield 2142, yet don't seem to want to do it here. I guess in Battlefield, I'm essentially playing by myself and treating the rest of the team as "environment" that I have to around, rather than people I have to work with. Specifically, since neither squad leaders nor commanders ever seem interested in giving orders or getting off their *****.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by UnSub View Post
As for power customisation, the idea belongs to Cryptic either way. It may have been implemented in the Paragon Studios era, but it was certainly raised and discussed during the Cryptic era.
The devs from the Paragon Studios era ARE the devs from the Cryptic era. So your argument is off kilter.