City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

PvP and Badge Hunting Just Don't Mix

Adeon Hawkwood

By Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-03-19 20:46 in CoH and CoV General Discussions

 

Posted

Quote:
The POINT is that there is no fun to be gained from PVPng an unprepared person who is not able to fight back
If they're not prepared to be attacked even though there's a popup box, and a count down to go along with it, then they should leave. It's that simple. I'm sorry, but I have no sympathy for someone who cries and ******* about being attacked in a pvp zone.

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unless you are getting jollies from causing them to be frustrated, which is the essence of trolling.
I don't pvp much, but I would get my jollies if they asked me to not interupt a duel and asked if they could get the inner circle plus LR in RV. What makes them more important than me? Why should I not attack a player in a pvp zone so they can get their precious little 'badge'? If they don't like being attacked, they can leave.

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which is the essence of trolling
Not really since they agreed to enter the zone in the first place. They can leave the way they came in.

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For non-sociopaths
I'm a sociopath now because I refuse to obey someone else's made up rules? Again, what makes them more important than me?

 

Posted

To say nothing that any qualifying PVP victory has a chance of dropping a PVP-IO.

There is a tangible reward involved.
Saying 'no thanks I don't want to' just doesn't cut it.


@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina View Post
The POINT is that there is no fun to be gained from PVPng an unprepared person
There is no unprepared - or at least unaware they are in a PVP zone - person. You must make a conscious decision to enter a PVP zone and put yourself at the risk of PVP. If this were Aion, for instance, I could understand someone being "unprepared" - log in mid-zone, no pots/scrolls/etc, and get attacked. But even if you log in in a PVP zone in COH, you STILL have 30 seconds to decide "No, I don't want to PVP" and beat feet to the nearest exit.

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who is not able to fight back,
Everyone is able to fight back, unless they log in and then go AFK until they're kicked.

 

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Originally Posted by Tokyo View Post
I'm just saying that smeg caused undesired grief to that player. Griefing.
Griefing, in game terms, has a VERY SPECIFIC meaning. It does not mean "this person is annoying me", it means "this person is interrupting my gameplay to the point that I cannot do anything at all".

An example of griefing was people using TP friend to trap teammates in the cages on Pocket D's dance floor. Unless the teammate that TP self or another teammate with TP friend (this was back before the plethora of zone/base TPs, so those were not an option), the person literally could not go anywhere unless they summoned a GM. That's griefing. That's totally interrupting a player's gameplay experience.

Killing someone in a PVP zone does not completely interrupt their gameplay experience. They can go back into the zone and attempt their thing again, or they can leave, each as valid as the other. Killing someone repeatedly in a PVP zone still does not interrupt their gameplay experience. It just means they get to make the choice of stay or leave more often. It's still not griefing.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dispari View Post
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.

 

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Originally Posted by Tokyo View Post
I'm not saying smeg was in the wrong. I'm just saying that smeg caused undesired grief to that player. Griefing.
False. Griefing, in the context of this game, has a clear definition set out by the devs. If I do something within the rules and guidelines set forth and it happens to make someone unhappy, that's just too bad. I can't control their reaction to things. I can only control what I do. If I stay within the rules, it doesn't matter how upset they might get - it's not griefing.

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Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina View Post
For non-sociopaths
You don't actually believe the junk you type do you?

The way you think makes me laugh.

 

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I would love to see the responce from a GM to a complaint of being griefed because they were killed in PvP, doing PvE things.

 

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Originally Posted by Rochlin View Post
I would love to see the responce from a GM to a complaint of being griefed because they were killed in PvP, doing PvE things.
I would imagine it'd be something like, "If you do not wish to be killed by other players, you can leave the zone." GMs are ever so polite to their customers, it's only on customerssuck.com or some snarky internal message board that they laugh at the idiots that petition for help for stupid stuff.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dispari View Post
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.

 

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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill View Post
There is no unprepared - or at least unaware they are in a PVP zone - person. You must make a conscious decision to enter a PVP zone and put yourself at the risk of PVP. But even if you log in in a PVP zone in COH, you STILL have 30 seconds to decide "No, I don't want to PVP" and beat feet to the nearest exit.
Yes, this game goes out of its way to make you aware of what happens in a PVP zone: Contacts outside the zone, missions to said contacts, the PVP-free timer, drones around the bases, etc.



Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

 

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Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina View Post
If a person says not to do something, they are not giving consent. To state otherwise because "you signed it" demonstrates a lack of understanding of what the word means. What you're talking about is more akin to the legal principle of consent.

Who said anything about not wanting to PVP? Sometimes they interrupt duels, not just badges, though that isn't such an issue now that arena works anywhere.

See, this is one of the things that sucks about discourse now. Nobody even debates what the other person is saying, they just either argue with an alternate meaning of the words that were said:

See, it IS consent if you use this meaning of the word! Never mind that "PVP should involve giving technical consent by entering a PVP zone, or it isn't any fun anyway. What is the point of PVP against a target that doesn't fight back?" makes absolutely no sense in the context.

or classifying them into some group, and then debating with your stereotypical perception of that group:

Aha! You complained about attacks in a PVP zone! You must not want to PVP, even though you specifically referenced duels.

And thus armed with these 2 awesome debating techniques, the masses of the internet can win any argument simply by covering up the main point under a 10 page pile of drivel about word definitions or arguments about group stereotypes.

The POINT is that there is no fun to be gained from PVPng an unprepared person who is not able to fight back, unless you are getting jollies from causing them to be frustrated, which is the essence of trolling. For non-sociopaths, PVP is fun because it is more interesting and challenging than PVE.

Let's see...today...I went into the first 3 PvP zones for the purpose of badge collecting.

Bloody Bay. No one attacked me. Didn't see anyone.

Same with Warburg.

No in Siren's Call, however. BOOM! Attacked!

Now mind you, I wasn't there for PvP, wasn't really in the mood for it. But that stalker got me. Sooo...I went to the hospital, and made my way to the next badge!

BOOM! Bane gets me! Wasn't prepared for it, and I don't recall if the Bane got me or the stalker he was teamed with. I assume they're teamed, only because they were part of the same SG.

So, trip to the hospital again. Get the third badge! And BOOM! Died getting to the 4th badge, because well, it's in the villain controlled area. And the NPCs over whelmed my defender. *shrug*

Back out of the hospital I get my 4th and final badge! \o/ Mana falls from the heavens! I make my way to the spot I got beat before for another shot at Bane or Stalker.

I get the Bane! Couple close calls! Yeah, I saw myself winning! That Bane was going down! It was just two more hits, I can take him...BOOM! That stalker comes into the fight, damn! I'm stunned, toggles dropped (they should really make it so offensive toggles don't drop in PvP, just to make it fair)...to late...faceplanted. And then a brute shows up and Footstomps my corpse!

Seeing as how they were all part of the same SG, and the only other hero I saw in the zone was just standing in the hospital. I decided I'd leave the zone, as 1 vs 3 was just asking to get beat everytime without even a CHANCE of winning.

Point is. You're saying yes to being killed in a PvP zone, by another player, when you enter that zone.

This isn't a matter of forced consent. Or rules lawyering. This is matter of you the one going into the zone saying "Yes. I know the risks. I'm going in." and thusly turning on your flag to be killed by other players.

Now did the targets not want to PvP? No. Then why did they go into the PvP zone? It's already been explained, there is nothing in those PvP zones, that is needed for PvE. That requires you to stay in the zone for very long.

Click 3 plaques, and grab 3 exploration badges to get accolades.

And that's just redside, nothing blue.

Now if they had asked me. Likely would have left them alone. Well, except maybe in Sirens, but I don't really PvP in there, I prefere to PvP in RV/Arena, where I have access to every power, but Siren's has a bounty system, so if they're your target, you really have to go for it.

This isn't being mean. It's playing how the one was designed to be played.

BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

Rather than a zone flag it should be a personal one that's only available in zones that both sides can get into. That way the PvP'ers can fight each other, the PvE'ers can collect their badges and some of us can watch a decent duel between two consenting players without whining from either side of the PvP/PvE divide, or being ganked by the Stalker who's trying out a new build behind your back.

That would also make more venues open to the PvP'ers as they could PvP in the current co-op zones without hassling those who don't want to. Heck, if co-op teams broke down to such an extent that arguments broke out, they could break out of their team, flip the PvP switch and have at it while the rest of us have a good gawp from the safety of the Vanguard base entrance

Far more flexible, widens the PvP playability and might encourage more PvP with players that aren't built specifically for PvP gaming. As it's more likely that non PvP builds would be used. As it is, a PvE'er who enters a PvP zone is likely to get ganked straight away by the fully IO'd (I spent loads'of'inf on this build) PvP'er which is no fun for the PvE'er, and lets face it, hardly a challenge for the PVP'er.

Just a thought of course. Personally I loathe PvP in the game, but some people love and adore it (even if they complain it's busted) I would rather see a system that had an increased level of granularity, and consequently choice, than the current "You entered the zone, so you like PvP, therefore you are a target" While I personally think it was a mistake to put the PvE elements into the PvP zones, it was done for the right reasons. To get PvE players into the zones. Unfortunately they're not prepared for the PvP crowd, and when the devs tried to fix that they made the situation worse; not better and so we haemmorraged a lot of PvP'ers. Which, to give the PvP'ers their due, they tend to be better players than the PvE'ers simply because they're not going up against a lack-luster AI.

Union: @Ban-Sidhe

 

Posted

More PvP-enabled, zones is a bad idea. This game's PvP population is even smaller than it was before I13 and spreading them out even further won't help. However, I think a case could be made for duplicates of zones - one with I12 rules and one with I13 rules. I have a feeling more people would be going to the I12 zones.

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Originally Posted by Ban_Sidhe View Post
Rather than a zone flag it should be a personal one that's only available in zones that both sides can get into. That way the PvP'ers can fight each other, the PvE'ers can collect their badges and some of us can watch a decent duel between two consenting players without whining from either side of the PvP/PvE divide, or being ganked by the Stalker who's trying out a new build behind your back.

NO.

The reward in the PvP zones (Shivans, Nukes, etc.) is greater to make up for the greater risk of being attacked by another player. A player is much more capable of defeating you than any computer AI will EVER be, therefore the rewards that can be found in those zones are better than most other repeatable rewards.

A Shivan is a temporary pet that comes with 5 uses. It is the same strength no matter how may times you get it, while other temp pets decrease in effectiveness when you get them more than once.

A Warburg nuke is an extremely powerful attack/debuff, that you can acquire as many times as you want.

The risk is equal to the reward. You are asking for a reward scaled to that particular risk, while removing the risk entirely. (That's why things like MM pets in AE are considered exploits, the reward is too great for the risk involved, which is effectively zero)

So, NO. If you want your badges and temp powers, deal with the fact that you can be attacked by other players. I'm not a huge PvP fan, but if I enter a PvP zone, I accept the fact that I can and will be attacked while I'm looking for a badge.

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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

 

Posted

Well Claws, I presume you flew into a complete nerd-rage before you got to the end of my post. I actually say at the bottom that PVP'ers tend to be better players because they're usually playing against other PvP'ers. But threads like this tend to provoke a lot of feeling.

Shivan's are just temp pets, and pretty much everyone can now self destruct with the near same effect as a nuke. Please note, I said "near" same effect.

The point is that the PvP'ers actively discourage people from going into the PvP zones, while the dev's want people to go in there. The OP came across a group that wanted to be left alone. He didn't respect, or for that matter understand, that they wanted to be left alone. They were in a PvP zone, therefore they were targets. They asked him to leave him alone, he refused. He did not respect their request. In fact a lot of PvP'ers don't, and those that do are in the minority; which is terribly sad.

The zone entry text says "You are now entereing a PvP area and can be attacked by other players." If someone asks you to leave them alone, then maybe you should pause a second and ask yourself would it not be more of a challenge to hit on someone who wants to fight back? Just because you're in a zone doesn't mean you have to team, that you have to talk to someone, that you have to PvP.

Hence the PvP flag suggestion. If I'm in a PvP zone and want to PvP then I set the flag, and my name goes orange. Otherwise it's grey because I want to be left alone to have a mooch around a zone, or enjoy watching some PvP'ers fight. It's always interesting to see two well matched players in a fight.

Union: @Ban-Sidhe

 

Posted

Here we go again.

I really don't understand some of you. It's like your brains just can't seem to grasp simple concepts.

PvP means.... Player vs. Player

A PvP zone is where players can/will/are gonna' attack other... players (OMG NO!)

The Devs coded this game to function in a particular way. Aside from exploits, players who play the game that the Devs coded to function in a particular way are not doing anything "wrong". They are merely playing the game that the Devs coded to function in a particular way as intended. It is not the players fault or problem for playing the game as intended as per dev coding that makes this game function in a particulay way, it is the fault and problem of those of you who don't understand that the game was coded by the Devs to function in a particular way.

If you can't understand how or why you are allowed to do or not do certain things in this game, please always keep in mind that the Devs only allow us to play the game that they coded to function a particular way.

If for any reason any of you are in doubt of what I'm saying and still feel that players are actually "in the wrong" for playing the game that the Devs coded to function in a particular way, then I suggest you PM one of the Devs and ask them if it is in fact wrong/mean/nasty/cheating/bad/evil/disrespectful/dishonorable for players to play the game within the confines of the coding that the Devs coded which allows us to play the game in a particular way.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black_Barrier
Guess it's hard to click while actively trying to keep the drool away from the keyboard...

 

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Originally Posted by OPTICAL_ILLUSION View Post
Here we go again.

I really don't understand some of you. It's like your brains just can't seem to grasp simple concepts.

PvP means.... Player vs. Player

A PvP zone is where players can/will/are gonna' attack other... players (OMG NO!)

The Devs coded this game to function in a particular way. Aside from exploits, players who play the game that the Devs coded to function in a particular way are not doing anything "wrong". They are merely playing the game that the Devs coded to function in a particular way as intended. It is not the players fault or problem for playing the game as intended as per dev coding that makes this game function in a particulay way, it is the fault and problem of those of you who don't understand that the game was coded by the Devs to function in a particular way.

If you can't understand how or why you are allowed to do or not do certain things in this game, please always keep in mind that the Devs only allow us to play the game that they coded to function a particular way.

If for any reason any of you are in doubt of what I'm saying and still feel that players are actually "in the wrong" for playing the game that the Devs coded to function in a particular way, then I suggest you PM one of the Devs and ask them if it is in fact wrong/mean/nasty/cheating/bad/evil/disrecpectful/dishonorable for players to play the game within the confines of the coding that the Devs coded which allow us to play the game in a particular way.


Surely player versus player, means that both players are engaged in the PVP aspect.

Else it'd be player versus afker or player versus not intrested player, or indeed player versus not playing player.

Honestly given the balls'd up state of PVP there should be no PVE content in the zones, there certainly shouldn't be mobs in the zone, since they don't have PVP rules on them.

Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by OPTICAL_ILLUSION View Post
Here we go again.

I really don't understand some of you. It's like your brains just can't seem to grasp simple concepts.

PvP means.... Player vs. Player

A PvP zone is where players can/will/are gonna' attack other... players (OMG NO!)

The Devs coded this game to function in a particular way. Aside from exploits, players who play the game that the Devs coded to function in a particular way are not doing anything "wrong". They are merely playing the game that the Devs coded to function in a particular way as intended. It is not the players fault or problem for playing the game as intended as per dev coding that makes this game function in a particulay way, it is the fault and problem of those of you who don't understand that the game was coded by the Devs to function in a particular way.

If you can't understand how or why you are allowed to do or not do certain things in this game, please always keep in mind that the Devs only allow us to play the game that they coded to function a particular way.

If for any reason any of you are in doubt of what I'm saying and still feel that players are actually "in the wrong" for playing the game that the Devs coded to function in a particular way, then I suggest you PM one of the Devs and ask them if it is in fact wrong/mean/nasty/cheating/bad/evil/disrecpectful/dishonorable for players to play the game within the confines of the coding that the Devs coded which allows us to play the game in a particular way.
And it's the simple concept that "I don't want to PvP even though I'm in the zone" that seems to be very hard to grasp as well.

Union: @Ban-Sidhe

 

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Originally Posted by CactusBrawler View Post
Surely player versus player, means that both players are engaged in the PVP aspect.

Else it'd be player versus afker or player versus not intrested player, or indeed player versus not playing player.
All of those in your second sentence are still players, so PVP still applies to all of them. A player agrees to engage in PVP by entering the zone and allowing the 30 second countdown to lapse. After that countdown is done, if they are attacked, it's their own fault; if they don't want to be attacked, they can leave the zone.

(NOTE: Once again, this is coming from a die-hard PVE-er. I pretty much hate PVP. But I understand that PVP zones are for PVP first, no matter how much PVE content may be in the zone.)

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dispari View Post
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.

 

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Originally Posted by Ban_Sidhe View Post
And it's the simple concept that "I don't want to PvP even though I'm in the zone" that seems to be very hard to grasp as well.
Exactly, just because I'm on a football field doesn't mean I want to play football, no matter how much you toss or kick the ball to me.

Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.

 

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Originally Posted by Ban_Sidhe View Post
Well Claws, I presume you flew into a complete nerd-rage before you got to the end of my post. I actually say at the bottom that PVP'ers tend to be better players because they're usually playing against other PvP'ers. But threads like this tend to provoke a lot of feeling.

Shivan's are just temp pets, and pretty much everyone can now self destruct with the near same effect as a nuke. Please note, I said "near" same effect.
Right, given that the 'nearly' does not include being able to... you know, be alive afterwards... I'm thinking that's kind of a major difference.

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The point is that the PvP'ers actively discourage people from going into the PvP zones, while the dev's want people to go in there. The OP came across a group that wanted to be left alone. He didn't respect, or for that matter understand, that they wanted to be left alone. They were in a PvP zone, therefore they were targets. They asked him to leave him alone, he refused. He did not respect their request. In fact a lot of PvP'ers don't, and those that do are in the minority; which is terribly sad.
Fortunately, the majority of people who don't wish to PVP don't go into PVP zones. No PVP'er can ever force a PVE'er into PVP. Every single PVE'er who finds themselves in a PVP fight chose to put themselves into a situation where that could occur.

It's not nice to blame other people for your decisions.

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The zone entry text says "You are now entereing a PvP area and can be attacked by other players." If someone asks you to leave them alone, then maybe you should pause a second and ask yourself would it not be more of a challenge to hit on someone who wants to fight back? Just because you're in a zone doesn't mean you have to team, that you have to talk to someone, that you have to PvP.
No, it just means that you are willing to engage in PVP.
If you are unwilling to engage in PVP, stay out of the zone.
Win/win.

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Hence the PvP flag suggestion. If I'm in a PvP zone and want to PvP then I set the flag, and my name goes orange. Otherwise it's grey because I want to be left alone to have a mooch around a zone, or enjoy watching some PvP'ers fight. It's always interesting to see two well matched players in a fight.
And even more interesting when as a grey-flagged player, I begin to heal one of them.
Or pass one of them inspirations.
Or drag enemy spawns into them.
Or just fly/run/jump around, acting as a spotter for them.

As far as I can see, there are too many ways to alter the way a fight is going for this idea to really be viable. Of course, if you have a solution, I'm all ears.

"Strength of numbers is the delight of the timid. The valiant in spirit glory in fighting alone."
- Mahatma Gandhi

Still CoHzy after all these years...

 

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Originally Posted by Aggelakis View Post
All of those in your second sentence are still players, so PVP still applies to all of them. A player agrees to engage in PVP by entering the zone and allowing the 30 second countdown to lapse. After that countdown is done, if they are attacked, it's their own fault; if they don't want to be attacked, they can leave the zone.

(NOTE: Once again, this is coming from a die-hard PVE-er. I pretty much hate PVP. But I understand that PVP zones are for PVP first, no matter how much PVE content may be in the zone.)
This game is designed around teaming, does that mean you must team with people when they ask you?

I mean if you don't want to team, you can just go play single player game.

Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Aggelakis View Post
Griefing, in game terms, has a VERY SPECIFIC meaning. It does not mean "this person is annoying me", it means "this person is interrupting my gameplay to the point that I cannot do anything at all".

An example of griefing was people using TP friend to trap teammates in the cages on Pocket D's dance floor. Unless the teammate that TP self or another teammate with TP friend (this was back before the plethora of zone/base TPs, so those were not an option), the person literally could not go anywhere unless they summoned a GM. That's griefing. That's totally interrupting a player's gameplay experience.

Killing someone in a PVP zone does not completely interrupt their gameplay experience. They can go back into the zone and attempt their thing again, or they can leave, each as valid as the other. Killing someone repeatedly in a PVP zone still does not interrupt their gameplay experience. It just means they get to make the choice of stay or leave more often. It's still not griefing.
Yes, it does interrupt their gameplay. If an individual is badging and is interrupted by being killed that is the very definition of having your gameplay interrupted.

Whether the badger is griefing and interrupting Smegs gameplay is of no consequence. My argument is that there is still griefing in PvP zones. d;D

 

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Originally Posted by Ban_Sidhe View Post
Shivan's are just temp pets,
... which you can get repeatedly at the same strength. Apparently you didn't notice that the first time.
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and pretty much everyone can now self destruct with the near same effect as a nuke. Please note, I said "near" same effect.
My self-destruct buffs my teammates? Or debuffs my enemies? Really? And I can fire off three separate ones at the same time? Or are you talking Blaster-style nuke versus Warburg nukes (chemical, biological, nuclear) which have very specific effects?

They are as "near" the same effect as a Ford Focus is "nearly" the Space Shuttle.

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The point is that the PvP'ers actively discourage people from going into the PvP zones,
Imagine that. Finding PVPers wanting to PVP in zones designed for PVP, with rewards designed around the risk of PVP. Who'da'thunkit.

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They were in a PvP zone, therefore they were targets.
First right thing said here.
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He did not respect their request.
And they didn't respect the purpose of the zone, instead wanting to impose their own rules on the zone.

 

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Originally Posted by CactusBrawler View Post
This game is designed around teaming, does that mean you must team with people when they ask you?

I mean if you don't want to team, you can just go play single player game.
The game does not put a countdown on your toon when you log in and then put you on a team. That's what the game does with a PVP zone.

There's a significant difference between the game's teaming incentive and the game's PVP requirements. You can get to 50 without ever being on a team. In fact, several of my friends have done that, some of them multiple times.

However, you cannot go into a PVP zone without being flagged for PVP, and thus you are agreeing to PVP in that zone.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dispari View Post
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler View Post
Surely player versus player, means that both players are engaged in the PVP aspect.

Else it'd be player versus afker or player versus not intrested player, or indeed player versus not playing player.

Honestly given the balls'd up state of PVP there should be no PVE content in the zones, there certainly shouldn't be mobs in the zone, since they don't have PVP rules on them.
The Devs coded this game in a particular way that when you enter a PvP zone you are accepting and allowing engagement.

If you think I'm wrong then PM a Dev and ask them if they coded this game in such a way that when you enter a PvP zone you are flagged for PvP thus allowing for engagement.

A very sad story about War Witch and the neglected kitty. http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=219670

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black_Barrier
Guess it's hard to click while actively trying to keep the drool away from the keyboard...