Dual Pistols better then I thought.
By
Bill Z Bubba,
Posted on: 2010-03-09 14:40 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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"In a few hours I got to level 30." This the part that makes me laugh and scratch my head in wonder?|
Originally Posted by MYYST_BLAKWIDOW
When I logged when double xp weekend started. I saw many people with dual pistols. Many I asked said they didn't like them too much. Some said they animation was overkill. And some others just said it was ok but just ok. I was curious and so I made a traps/dual pistol defender. It was the best fun since my fire/device blaster. I really like the DP powers and the animation. I rarely miss and I do have nice damage. At least my defender can solo missions instead of relying on others to help. I'm not sure I would like a DP blaster. My defender feels more like a blaster then a defender that is for sure. I would recommend the build to anyone.
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How can really enjoy a powerset if you been PLed 30 levels? One: you have not had time to enjoy each and every new power. Its like getting a job and after six months you are given full retire benefits that are 35 years worth.....which of course you would love.
I and my partner hardly played our DP's over the weekend. when we did we duoed in the Hollows and had a great time. Took down Frostfire with no problem (DP blaster and DP Kin defender), though dinging during the fight help.
But hey whatever floats your boat.
Valaraine: Master Archer & Electricity Whiz.
(Archer - lvl 50, swordswoman - lvl 50, Elec zapper - lvl 35, Ice/DB tank - lvl 50, Arch/En - lvl 26, Lvl 33 Blade wielder, trick archer - lvl 34, flame tank - lvl 30, rad specialist - lvl 44.)
My DA page
Did it occur to anyone that they may have released it with damage on the low side intentionally so that they can buff it in the future?
It would make sense. Release the set with low damage that they can later buff if it is shown that the set underperforms compared to other sets, as opposed to releasing it incredibly strong only to nerf it later when they realize that it is too strong. They erred on the side of making people happy later with a buff, instead of pissing them off with a nerf.
Seems like they learned something from the port of claws to brutes. The set was overpowered when they first ported it, so they changed it to be in line with other sets, which many people viewed as a nerf.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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It's far more complicated than that. You're still only considering the overall kill speed as the only balance factor. True if you ran them over a bunch of missions you could find which one completes faster (hint: probably fire). But DP also has the ability to adapt and kill SAFER. It has the ability to use knockback when knockback is wanted, and not when it's not. It has the ability to stack slows with slows or stack -DMG with -DMG (my DP/Dark corr loves this). It has the ability to fight an AV and debuff his damage so the tank can take less damage. Fire might kill faster, but it can't do any of that stuff. In fact, no other set can.
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Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
Could you sort of take a fire toon up against 5 varying missions with different mob groups (inclu fire demons for example) and then take a DP toon into the exact same missions, and measure them both across the whole range? I'm a total noob when it comes to numbers, but if what I think you're saying is true, DP is supposed to be more of a jack of all trades rather than v good at one or three mobs and v bad at one or two?
Eco. |
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I've said it before, and I'll say it again now:
Dual pistols for blasters = okay.
Dual pistols for defenders and corruptors = pure win.
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You are assuming that he PL'd to 30. Over double XP weekend it doesn't take much to get to level 30. My DP is now at 33 and most of that was solo or duo with a couple of TFs and larger groups thrown in.|
Originally Posted by Juteboxhero
"In a few hours I got to level 30." This the part that makes me laugh and scratch my head in wonder?
How can really enjoy a powerset if you been PLed 30 levels? One: you have not had time to enjoy each and every new power. Its like getting a job and after six months you are given full retire benefits that are 35 years worth.....which of course you would love. I and my partner hardly played our DP's over the weekend. when we did we duoed in the Hollows and had a great time. Took down Frostfire with no problem (DP blaster and DP Kin defender), though dinging during the fight help. But hey whatever floats your boat. |
I guess it depends what he meant by "a few hours." Sounds like you and your partner got close to 20 and you "hardly played over the weekend."
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
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I PLed to 22. Wanna know why? Cause I played to 22 normally on Test. |
Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
You are assuming that he PL'd to 30. Over double XP weekend it doesn't take much to get to level 30. My DP is now at 33 and most of that was solo or duo with a couple of TFs and larger groups thrown in.
I guess it depends what he meant by "a few hours." Sounds like you and your partner got close to 20 and you "hardly played over the weekend." |
And then I played the set extensively at 38 and 50. My DP/Dark is now 43 (newspapers pretty much from 22-43). My DP/MM is 29 (newspapers from 5-29).But even if I hadn't played on Test? It's just a set. It's not like it's revolutionary from the core up. It has a minor, moderate, high, cone, ranged AoE, and PBAoE. I don't need to learn how to use those powers. The only powers I really need to learn are Swap Ammo and Piercing Rounds, and that doesn't require a strict ride from 1-x (especially since PR doesn't even come until 26). Even just a couple practice rounds up in your 40s or 50s would be enough to get a feel for the set. I did the same thing with Shield.
I've played enough sets pre-20 and I don't care to run around without Stamina or SOs, so yeah, gonna skip that part kthx.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I hate hate HATE Duel Pistols. I think that whole set is garbage.
...because I can't afford to buy GR yet. 
I bet those grapes are pretty sour, too. 
Stay Gold, Paragon. Stay Gold.
Nolite te bastardes carborundorum.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
It's far more complicated than that. You're still only considering the overall kill speed as the only balance factor. True if you ran them over a bunch of missions you could find which one completes faster (hint: probably fire). But DP also has the ability to adapt and kill SAFER. It has the ability to use knockback when knockback is wanted, and not when it's not. It has the ability to stack slows with slows or stack -DMG with -DMG (my DP/Dark corr loves this). It has the ability to fight an AV and debuff his damage so the tank can take less damage. Fire might kill faster, but it can't do any of that stuff. In fact, no other set can.
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Actually, I'm mainly considering how frakkin' cool it looks, lol. I also love KB, so I use normal ammo mostly.
But what I meant about comparisons was that to get a better picture of DPs overall performance against Fire, say, you'd have to take them both up against stuff that DPs holds, DoT (from toxic?), debuffs and KB etc would be useful against, including something that Fire is weak against.
My post was meant in support of what your point seems to be.
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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Want to bet that the 'twirl gun' part of the animation is there so that the devs have someplace to trim that won't screw up the main attack animation if they decide to reduce the animation time?|
Originally Posted by Energizing_Ion
1.) Remove the 'twirl gun' sound/animation end part from the Empty Clips power and the Dual Pistols power. What I'm talking about here is that after you use the EC and DP powers, there is a .2 (maybe .5 or 1 second) second delay where you can hear the guns 'twirling' around and you can't attack until it's done. I never really noticed it but lately I have noticed it and it's a bit irksome.
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| 3.) Buff Hail of Bullets. Either keep the 2 min recharge and buff the damage a bit or drop it to a 60 sec base recharge and keep the damage as it is. Would be 'great' if both were done to it (60 sec base recharge and dmg increased by a little bit). |
"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
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That's not quite what happened. The set was released with incorrect values. Those values were fixed. True that many viewed it as a nerf, but it was a correction.| Seems like they learned something from the port of claws to brutes. The set was overpowered when they first ported it, so they changed it to be in line with other sets, which many people viewed as a nerf. |
I know.. doesn't really matter to anyone but me, but it was the case.
Be well, people of CoH.
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It's riskier than Full Auto as well, which has the virtue of being a cone (you want to be far away from them so you can hit more).|
Originally Posted by srmalloy
This makes the power much less attractive by making it inherently riskier to use than any other nuke except Full Auto, which has a much lower recharge time.
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I've described Dual Pistols as "meh numbers, but fun". Meh means "nothing stands out about it" - it doesn't do anything well, other than look pretty; sure it does -dam as a potential secondary effect, but the durations are too short (meaning you don't get a lot of use from it on the AoEs) and the tier 1 doesn't get it (so you can't stack it to a great extent on one mob), so I tend to discount that aspect completely. The damage split is too small (as has been mentioned) to allow the changing of ammo types to make a significant difference in the damage output. Hail of Bullets is too random in the damage dealt, and has you vulnerable for the entirety of it - on my DP/Traps I have less issues, but she also has Force Field Generator giving defense and mez protection, and honestly I fill in with Trip Mine frequently for more damage in the same amount of time.
But she's fun to play. And I play to have fun. So the set works for me despite the "meh" numbers, although I'd like to see something changed to give a reason to play it beyond pretty animations.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. *chin strokes* We'll see how it goes.
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Originally Posted by Obscure Blade
I've heard it called "Willpower and Shields Syndrome" on the forum; there was a lot of talk about how weak they were when they came out, too.
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My opinions on Duel Pistol
It is pretty, and Awesome Visually. Occationally I find myself going "They really watched to much Wanted and Matrix when they made this set." I do like the set not being so static in the motions. My Thug MM is jealous!
Damage uh yeah that math I really don't give a damn, it kills things that all that required.
It not an Endurance Hog, I started a Character with this set and ice as a Corruptor on red side. I think the most I ever used of a Blue Bar in a combat was 2/3 and that with no slotting, I might actaully skip Stamina some thing I never do.
Doom/Batman in 2012
The Resistance has boobs too, and better hair!
The Resistance has boobs too, and better hair!
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These paragraphs read like they are in contradiction. First you claim you think everything shouldn't be the same because that would be boring and then you go ahead and say everything should be the same.
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Originally Posted by FunstuffofDoom
Now, to cut down any straw men before they pop up, I do not mean that all powersets should be the exact same thing, or any permutation of that argument. That's a very, very boring game. Powersets should be comparably strong, in different ways. Strengths and weaknesses, all that jazz.
So, do I want everything to be Fire/Archery? No. I want everything to be Blast/Blast. I want everything to line up perfectly, to be even in some quantifiable way. If X is potential for dealing ST damage, Y is potential for AoE, and Z is additional Utility, every powerset should be XYZ. |
I like Dual Pistols. I am not a number-cruncher with my toons, so I come from the perspective of someone who wants a set to fufil the requirements of character concept and look good doing it. DP does this in spades. It looks fantastic, and not overly slow in my opinion, it does enough damage to kill / arrest stuff, and I can't get enough of the cool ways in which motion and animation blend into some really dramatic action scenes while in combat.
On a side note, why does the sets powers Detailed Info list damage bonuses as, "0.00%%" with duplicate percentage symbols?? Anyone?
K5K - The Killbot 5000
A Spanner In The Works Part One, ArcID: 336662, A Spanner In The Works Part Two, ArcID: 336665, Enter Japes, ArcID: 96001
In The Darkness Creeping, ArcID: 347709, When Dimensions Collide, ArcID: 412416.
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I didn't say I want everything to be the same. I explicitly said I didn't want everything to be the same. You even acknowledged that I explicitly said I didn't want ever set to be the same.|
Originally Posted by Scythus
These paragraphs read like they are in contradiction. First you claim you think everything shouldn't be the same because that would be boring and then you go ahead and say everything should be the same.
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Or, in more relevant terms, I don't want every single set to be the same powers, but with different colored effects.
I do want all sets to be fundamentally equal. At the same things? No. But, compensation should exist, such that a set low in one area should be high in another.
So, to again use more relevant terms, if a set has low utility, it should have a correspondingly high ability to deal damage.
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I don't think you realize how contradictory you're sounding.
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Originally Posted by FunstuffofDoom
I didn't say I want everything to be the same. I explicitly said I didn't want everything to be the same. You even acknowledged that I explicitly said I didn't want ever set to be the same.
Or, in more relevant terms, I don't want every single set to be the same powers, but with different colored effects. I do want all sets to be fundamentally equal. At the same things? No. But, compensation should exist, such that a set low in one area should be high in another. So, to again use more relevant terms, if a set has low utility, it should have a correspondingly high ability to deal damage. |
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I don't think that it's contradictory at all. He's not asking for every single power in each set to be the same damage/endurance/recharge with nothing but the graphics being different. But he is asking that they be somehow equivalent -- that whatever is given up for in one area is made up for in another area.|
Originally Posted by Scythus
I don't think you realize how contradictory you're sounding.
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So that a set that may not be particularly strong in single target damage may be very good at AoE damage. Or you could be a little weaker in both those areas but offer a lot of control or mitigation that the other sets with stronger damage have.
We have this to a certain extent already. Fire tends to be the most damaging set because its secondary effect is damage, but it doesn't have much in the way of mitigation. Sonic has less damaging attacks than other blast sets but has a lot of control and -res.
So I understand people who argue that pistols has lower damage but the benefit of changeable damage types. No one can argue that. The set has swap ammo available to anyone to take and use.
What I, and I think others, are saying is that the different damage types just isn't enough. It's close, but a little off. There's a few reasons for that.
1) DP has a lot of long cast times. Yes, they look cool, but all that time you are juggling guns stuff can and will shoot back at you. And once you start juggling guns you have to stand there and take it until you finish the dance.
2) DP does not have aim. Without aim you miss out on burst damage. The faster you kill stuff, the faster it stops shooting back.
3) While you can change your damage type, that only makes up 30% of any attack, the rest is lethal. So in the hypothetical attack that does 100 damage, 70 is lethal and 30 is other. If an NPC resists lethal by 50% a standard ammo shot will do 50 damage. An exotic damage type will do 65 damage. If they have a 30% weakness to a certain type of damage you will cause 74 damage. Most critters have some lethal resistance.
So we end up with a slow animating, low damage set with pretty animations and a cool customization gimmick. For some that's enough. I would prefer just a little more. Either make the animations faster, add aim, add a little more damage, change the damage ratio to 50/50, a little from all three, whatever.
But it does need a little bit more, in my opinion.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
I don't think it's bad at all. I would definitely agree that it's average. I tend to prefer high end powersets, and I would like it if my wants for style and concept could fit better with my wants for power and destruction. Er, balance. Yeah.
ES and HoB are subpar, sure, but *most* power-sets have a couple of abilities nobody takes, so this isn't a really big deal to me. I didn't really care for ES's animation anyway, and while I did like HoB animation (break gun dancing ftw yo), I have a tendency to ignore my nuke even when I take it so it's not a big deal to me.
I think the first cone power is a bit too short as well. I'll probably shove some range enhancements in it if possible. Craziness, I know.
I rather like Bullet Rain, Suppressive Fire, and Piercing Round. I keep saying how I'm going to make a macro that turns off my ammo before using Piercing Round, but I never do. The fact that I can have a hold on a Blaster makes me giggle excitedly whenever I use SF. I look forward to combining it with an epic hold and being the super cool blastroller. BR is just a good power.
I wasn't really fond of Chemical Rounds at first, but I've found they make pretty good damage mitigation as far as secondary effects on blast sets go. I don't really find Cryo Ammo very good unless you've got some other slow to pair it with, and Incendiary Ammo is great except that it looks green to me. I would really like to be able to customize the ammo color, and am a little surprised I can't. Also shooting the fire off of burning buildings is pretty awesome.
I would like it if the animations were sped up so that it would mesh better with Defender and Corrupter abilities, do better average damage, and be more receiving of IO's.
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The sets are already like that, but just simply not in damage which is what you seem to want. Thus my points about contradiction. He just wanted everything to do the same damage.|
Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
I don't think that it's contradictory at all. He's not asking for every single power in each set to be the same damage/endurance/recharge with nothing but the graphics being different. But he is asking that they be somehow equivalent -- that whatever is given up for in one area is made up for in another area.
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So that a set that may not be particularly strong in single target damage may be very good at AoE damage. Or you could be a little weaker in both those areas but offer a lot of control or mitigation that the other sets with stronger damage have. We have this to a certain extent already. Fire tends to be the most damaging set because its secondary effect is damage, but it doesn't have much in the way of mitigation. Sonic has less damaging attacks than other blast sets but has a lot of control and -res. So I understand people who argue that pistols has lower damage but the benefit of changeable damage types. No one can argue that. The set has swap ammo available to anyone to take and use. |
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What I, and I think others, are saying is that the different damage types just isn't enough. It's close, but a little off. There's a few reasons for that. 1) DP has a lot of long cast times. Yes, they look cool, but all that time you are juggling guns stuff can and will shoot back at you. And once you start juggling guns you have to stand there and take it until you finish the dance. |
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| 2) DP does not have aim. Without aim you miss out on burst damage. The faster you kill stuff, the faster it stops shooting back. |
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| 3) While you can change your damage type, that only makes up 30% of any attack, the rest is lethal. So in the hypothetical attack that does 100 damage, 70 is lethal and 30 is other. If an NPC resists lethal by 50% a standard ammo shot will do 50 damage. An exotic damage type will do 65 damage. If they have a 30% weakness to a certain type of damage you will cause 74 damage. Most critters have some lethal resistance. |
Changing the ammo type is very unique. No other set has anything like it. How do you suggest balancing an unknown variable?
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| So we end up with a slow animating, low damage |
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DP is a weapon set; one of the limitations of the system is that they can allow for the customization of weapons or powers, not both. So, the price to pay for being able to have several types of pistols is that they all shoot the same stuff.
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Originally Posted by Warkupo
Incendiary Ammo is great except that it looks green to me. I would really like to be able to customize the ammo color, and am a little surprised I can't.
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Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
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Oh really? I don't suppose you know why that is exactly? |
Originally Posted by Obscure Blade
DP is a weapon set; one of the limitations of the system is that they can allow for the customization of weapons or powers, not both. So, the price to pay for being able to have several types of pistols is that they all shoot the same stuff.
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And I only saw like, five pistols. I do hope they add more. I want an eyeball pistol that looks at people while I shoot them.
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I have no doubt this is every dev's dream when making something, but the more unique something becomes the harder it is to make them balanced and equal. If we were omniscient we could understand what weight each thing carries and balance them all to a point where each tiny attribute is accounted for by the exact amount. It's part of the reason sets do start off being quite similar with their minor, moderate, high damage attacks. Basic tier structure, normal power formulas, things like that.|
Originally Posted by FunstuffofDoom
I do want all sets to be fundamentally equal.
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But we're dealing with variables of unknown value. And even if you assign them a value and note that DP needs an improvement still (like I've done), there will always be people who perceive the unknown value differently than you. Even if the set is changed to a point where you're satisfied with its current amount of "utility," someone else may think it's too much, and a third person think it's still too little.
Right now DP feels like DB to me. It's not on top, nor is it on bottom. It's somewhere in the middle, with that extra bit of flexibility and player control. As such it may just fade into the background and be played for the fun factor and the people who actually do want that player control on-the-fly ability. I don't think many people play DB for the numbers, because it has hidden numbers unless your behavior is strictly predictable (same as DP actually). I do however feel that DP (and DB) could be improved number-wise without changing the set fundamentally or making it too powerful... so I wish it would.
Oh also, Incendiary is supposed to be green. Incendiary bullets burn phosphorous which burns at a greenish tint.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Originally Posted by Scythus
The sets are already like that, but just simply not in damage which is what you seem to want. Thus my points about contradiction. He just wanted everything to do the same damage.
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| Personally, the utility granted by being able to switch... |
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| This could be easily balanced by the set having great utility |
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| If X is potential for dealing ST damage, Y is potential for AoE, and Z is additional Utility, every powerset should be XYZ. |
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| So, to again use more relevant terms, if a set has low utility, it should have a correspondingly high ability to deal damage. |
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And you'll find that lethal resistant Behemoth suffer heavily from the 30% cold. And just about nothing in the game has resistance to toxic. Robots and cyborgs, for example, are practically resistant to everything but toxic. Changing the ammo type is very unique. No other set has anything like it. How do you suggest balancing an unknown variable? |
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| I don't think you realize how contradictory you're sounding. |
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Edit: To the kind individual who decided my words were inappropriate and chose to chastise me from the shadows: Please, in the future, a PM of your grievances will lead to contrition and amends. Negative Repping leads to bemusement and irritation.
Could you sort of take a fire toon up against 5 varying missions with different mob groups (inclu fire demons for example) and then take a DP toon into the exact same missions, and measure them both across the whole range? I'm a total noob when it comes to numbers, but if what I think you're saying is true, DP is supposed to be more of a jack of all trades rather than v good at one or three mobs and v bad at one or two?
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)