City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Dual Pistols better then I thought.

Bill Z Bubba

By Bill Z Bubba,
Posted on: 2010-03-09 14:40 in CoH and CoV General Discussions

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Siolfir View Post
*shrug* The charts make assumptions, some of which I disagree with. I'm curious how the single target damage accounts for Voltaic Sentinel's contributions, since it doesn't necessarily shoot the single target you want it to.
When I measure ST damage, I'm not measuring if you can hit a specific target but, instead, should you have one foe in front of you, how much damage you can dish out. Having two foes does not change the fact that VS still is dishing out damage, it just means your AoE attacks may also become a viable tool for your fight.

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And Ice Blast is in a far lower position than it should be - for Corruptors at least, where the animations on the single target chain are 1 sec, 1 sec, and 1.07 sec for Bolt/Blast/BIB. Given decent recharge, it's very close to Fire (and higher if you don't give the DoT time to burn out on Blaze) for single target.
Cant run everything for all ATs at once. This is based off blaster numbers (think I noted that in the thread I originally posted the numbers,) Rad is also much stronger for blasters than Defenders or Corruptors, same goes for Psi Blast. I think Defiance 2.0 really @#$% up Ice Blasters.

 

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Originally Posted by Starsman View Post
Even Arcanaville has noted on this: Voltaic Sentinel is often ignored when talking about Electric, I did not ignore it. It adds a lot of damage even if it's hard to keep it in the same target as you. When fighting one foe, though, that's the only thing it has to attack. I also think many players also ignore the snipe, I don't, even if it's very hard to use in combat it still is not impossible to do so.
Ah, thanks for the info.

 

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I consider VS to be a DoT power. I love it.

 

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Originally Posted by FunstuffofDoom View Post
Have the Devs released some edict from on high that the game must be played their way, and no other? Have they got some sort of vision they're trying to adhere to?
Well... yes, obviously. The devs release "edicts" in the form of the game, and the game is presumably intended to be an implementation of some driving vision of how the game should work. Which is not to say that the game as we play it is not also the result of a number of happy accidents, or that the vision has not evolved over time. But to take a wild guess, I would assume that part of the developer vision is that for any AT and sets you might choose, there's some reasonable performance-based (as opposed to aesthetic) argument to making that choice over any other choice you might make. If Pistols is so benighted as to not have any such argument, then it's probably not working as intended. I don't think it's quite reached that point.

Specialization does get a lot of traction in game discussions, yet the nonspecialized ATs of redside tend to be just as popular and effective as the trinity ATs blueside. Conversely, however, Khelds have a reputation for being a jack of all trades, but in a modal fashion, so that you can only be almost as good as a specialist at one thing at a time*. It remains to be seen whether Pistols are the villains of blast sets, or the Khelds.

* Before I am shouted down by Kheld players, I'm aware this is not an entirely accurate representation. But it is a common complaint, and it does take some insight and a fair amount of skill and effort to not play a Kheld this way, and that does limit the popularity of the AT.

@SPTrashcan
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Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs

 

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I'm very happy with my DP/Mental Manip blaster. I haven't had this much fun playing a blaster in quite a long time.

I expect the same amount of fun when I get around to rolling a DP defender too.

 

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Don't have the record but I seen two DP defenders bring an AV down to 10% damage by combining their Toxic rounds (non permanently, think a third blaster will make it pretty much perma 10%.)

DP shares one interesting trait with Sonic Blast: It's secondary effects stack amazingly well. The more Dual Pistol users in the team, the much safer that fight can be (provided you don't have 4 each using different rounds.)
That is good to know. I will cease claiming that Dual Pistols is numerically inferior, and instead claim that the set simply does not fit me as a player.

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...If Pistols is so benighted as to not have any such argument, then it's probably not working as intended. I don't think it's quite reached that point.
I'm glad you enjoy the set. It doesn't mesh well with me, but I think it can bring many things to a team, all of them beneficial.

 

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Originally Posted by FunstuffofDoom View Post
For the upteenth time, to what benefit?
I can change whatever type of ammo I have at ANY time. Fire for raw damage. Lethal for knockback. Ice for slow. Toxic for weakening the target. No other set can do this! It's at the median for damage and trades up high, absurd damage for versatility.

I take from this...

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Fine, with incendiary ammunition, a DP character is average at single target damage. However, this only lasts as long as the refuse to change ammo types. Since the recurring point is that ammo-changing provides utility to render the set balanced, 'twould stand to reason that an inability to change ammo types ('cause you're keeping it locked on incendiary to be decent at ST, remember.) removes that utility, and thus unbalances the set.
...that all you want is damage, damage, damage and forget about being able to change secondary effects. Forget about secondary effects completely. So clearly you should just go and play your Fire Blast, as it's clear as the only serious damage dealing set that will satisfy you. Avoid all the others, because they're either too weak being lethal damage or full of secondary effects.

 

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Originally Posted by Starsman View Post
Don't have the record but I seen two DP defenders bring an AV down to 10% damage by combining their Toxic rounds (non permanently, think a third blaster will make it pretty much perma 10%.)
During closed beta a team of all Blasters did some of the Faultline arcs with AVs. After a couple deaths they realized that stacking toxic damage on the AVs would floor their damage and make them harmless. No other set can leverage advantages this way. The only set that comes close to "set up the battle in your favor" is Dual Blades.

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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

 

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Fine, with incendiary ammunition, a DP character is average at single target damage. However, this only lasts as long as the refuse to change ammo types. Since the recurring point is that ammo-changing provides utility to render the set balanced, 'twould stand to reason that an inability to change ammo types ('cause you're keeping it locked on incendiary to be decent at ST, remember.) removes that utility, and thus unbalances the set.
...that all you want is damage, damage, damage and forget about being able to change secondary effects. Forget about secondary effects completely. So clearly you should just go and play your Fire Blast, as it's clear as the only serious damage dealing set that will satisfy you. Avoid all the others, because they're either too weak being lethal damage or full of secondary effects.
I didn't. I wanted equality. Which is why the metric I suggested earlier in the thread, one for some constant all sets could be measured by, had three variables: Single Target damage, Area of Effect damage, and Status Effects/Mitigation/Utility. However, it has since been made clear to me that such things can be provided in sufficient quantities that ragging on Dual Pistols for numerical disadvantages is fallacious. My response and concession can be read just one post above yours.

If you'd like to continue debating the merits of my argument, I urge you to do so in PM. Your mischaracterizations are becoming dangerously close to insulting, and in any event, the topic is currently irrelevant to the thread.

 

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Originally Posted by FunstuffofDoom View Post
I didn't. I wanted equality.
Just for the record, This is not aimed at you directly, but it's an unrealistic desire that many seem to have: You can't have equality. You just cant, best you can have is a minimum margin of accepted performance for all, DP gets nowhere near it so that should be fine.

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Which is why the metric for some constant all sets could be measured by had three variables: Single Target damage, Area of Effect damage, and Status Effects/Mitigation/Utility.
Close, from what I understand there is a minimum desired Single Target level of performance, AoE is entirely optional as is utility of any kind. Addition of utility or AoE do are expected but there is no bar to measure them, however you should expect if one is too high there should be penalties in any of the other two.

Fire and Sonic i think are ultimate extreme examples of this. The stackability of -resist in Sonic, plus sleeps and holds are all considered so dangerous that the set has the weakest self damage while Fire is refused any utility at all.

 

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Originally Posted by Starsman View Post
[Equality among powersets is] an unrealistic desire that many seem to have: You can't have equality. You just cant, best you can have is a minimum margin of accepted performance for all, DP gets nowhere near it so that should be fine.
Of course it's a pipe dream. I submit myself to the pragmatist approach that working towards the ideal is the best action we can take, and will be content.


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Close, from what I understand there is a minimum desired Single Target level of performance, AoE is entirely optional as is utility of any kind. Addition of utility or AoE do are expected but there is no bar to measure them, however you should expect if one is too high there should be penalties in any of the other two.

Fire and Sonic i think are ultimate extreme examples of this. The stackability of -resist in Sonic, plus sleeps and holds are all considered so dangerous that the set has the weakest self damage while Fire is refused any utility at all.
Actually, that's a callback to something I wrote earlier in the thread. I didn't mean to suggest it was the metric Devs use; that was a typo. It's just a throwaway argument I constructed to help an argument, using basically the same points you did. However, it isn't nearly comprehensive enough to be taken seriously, I think.

 

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Originally Posted by FunstuffofDoom View Post
Of course it's a pipe dream. I submit myself to the pragmatist approach that working towards the ideal is the best action we can take, and will be content.
Thing is equality defeats the purpose of multiple sets with didstinct flavors. If you get equality you may as well just make one set and give people the ability to customize the effects to look icy/fiery/dark/electric/etc. I actually think DC Universe Online is doing something similar, they seem to note that you get to pick a power (ice/fire/dark) and a source (gun/wand/head/hands/sword/etc) and somehow those combine into giving you a customized character that may perform similarly for all variations.

I am sure it's going to be more complex than that but so far that seems to be their base.


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Actually, that's a callback to something I wrote earlier in the thread. I didn't mean to suggest it was the metric Devs use;
Well, it's not a metric but they do keep a rule of thumb about it.

 

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I just thought I'd post this since I just got done leveling my DP Blaster up to 30. I know a lot of people are worrying about the damage output the set gives outside of incendiary. While I'd like to see a few upgrades to the set myself, let me report the sorts of things that I do with my toons to help get a better view of the set's versatility.

Someone earlier reported that the set only does good damage when you're using incendiary, and because of that you should always use incendiary which takes away the set's unique factor. However true that is, damage isn't always the only concern. Granted I use incendiary almost all the time on my Blaster, but I swap ammo when the situation calls for it. So take a typical day in my Blaster's world. For comparison sake, I'll also put Fire Blast in here and what I would be doing if I had that.

Mission 1) I hop on my Blaster and get a team going. I default to Incendiary Ammo and kill things. My damage is good. If I had Fire Blast, my damage would be better.

Mission 2) One of our Controllers has to go and the team support is lacking a little. Because at this point it's more important for our team to stay alive than it is for me to do good damage, I switch to Chemical Ammo to lessen the incoming blows of the badguys. If I had Fire Blast, I'd have to look for more teammates quickly, or hand off inspirations to people.

Mission 3) The team has regrouped and we're fighting well again after getting a Defender. I no longer have to worry about team support, so I switch back to Incendiary Ammo. With Fire Blast, it'd just be business as usual.

Mission 4) The team goes and ends up fighting fire demons in a PI mission. As it would be silly to be using fire ammo, I switch to Cryo Ammo and up my damage on them while doing slows. If I was Fire Blast, I'd just have to suffer through it.

Mission 5) We now go to fight Carnies. I consider my usual incendiary, but remember that carnies are weak to lethal. So I switch to Lethal Ammo and do some -RES along with -DEF and knockdown. If Fire Blast, I'd just be doing the basic fire damage as per usual.

Mission 6) We run into a tough AV and wipe. While regrouping I glance around and see two other DP users. I coordinate with them and we all switch to Chemical Ammo for the AV fight, which drastically reduces his damage and we're able to survive enough to kill him. If I was using Fire Blast, I wouldn't be able to coordinate or conspire as my only option is to deal damage. We'd have to stock up on inspirations.

Mission 7) I decide to solo for a little while. I start off with Incendiary Ammo because I'm doing okay, but once I run into some harder enemies I switch to Lethal Ammo for the knockback, to keep them planted on the ground so they don't retaliate. With Fire Blast, I'd just have to pack inspirations.

Mission 8) I hop on my DP/Dark Corr, who generally defaults to Chemical Ammo so that I can stack -DMG with my Dark debuffs. However, I always switch to Incendiary Ammo when using HoB, and Lethal Ammo to solo in extreme safety. Fire Blast? Same experience all around.

It's not always about doing damage. If you're in a safe situation where you can default to Incendiary, then by all means do so. But no other set allows you to adapt to a situation and pull strings so that you're a step up. If Fire Blast, Archery, or Radiation are faced with a situation they can't handle, you have no options other than to pack inspirations or find some teammates. DP has the ability to look at the situation and pick what's best. That, I believe, is the reason the set doesn't pack the punch people expect it to.

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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

 

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Originally Posted by Starsman View Post
Thing is equality defeats the purpose of multiple sets with didstinct flavors. If you get equality you may as well just make one set and give people the ability to customize the effects to look icy/fiery/dark/electric/etc.
That's not what I meant by equality. Bionic_Flea summed up my position best when he said:

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I don't think that it's contradictory at all. He's not asking for every single power in each set to be the same damage/endurance/recharge with nothing but the graphics being different. But he is asking that they be somehow equivalent -- that whatever is given up for in one area is made up for in another area.

So that a set that may not be particularly strong in single target damage may be very good at AoE damage. Or you could be a little weaker in both those areas but offer a lot of control or mitigation that the other sets with stronger damage have.
Or, as I've put it, if X is Single Target damage, Y is Area of Effect Damage, and Z is utility, I want every set to be XYZ. And, perhaps, we'll call XYZ the set constant, K. K-Sub S, if other constants are in use.

 

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Originally Posted by FunstuffofDoom View Post
That's not what I meant by equality. Bionic_Flea summed up my position best when he said:
But we've already established that that's precisely how most of the sets already are, including DP. Its damage is pretty average, but it has a very unique utility of being able to change its secondary effects and Dispari has already written an example of how well DP does that. You seem to want it to do more damage which might have the potential of making it overpowered. The damage is already average for blast sets, why does it need to be any higher?

We're trying to tell you that damage does not solely matter. Its the secondary effects that also give you an edge in combat. Despite all of your protests it just keeps sounding like you want the set to be damage-centric like Fire Blast is.

 

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Originally Posted by Scythus View Post
But we've already established that that's precisely how most of the sets already are, including DP. Its damage is pretty average, but it has a very unique utility of being able to change its secondary effects and Dispari has already written an example of how well DP does that. You seem to want it to do more damage which might have the potential of making it overpowered. The damage is already average for blast sets, why does it need to be any higher?

We're trying to tell you that damage does not solely matter. Its the secondary effects that also give you an edge in combat. Despite all of your protests it just keeps sounding like you want the set to be damage-centric like Fire Blast is.
For the love of God, man, do you read my posts except to extract parts of them for further argumentation? I conceded seven hours ago. We've both since posted. Currently, the argument has consisted of clarification of several arguments I used, and a critique of pragmatic views as applied to balance.

 

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Originally Posted by Dispari View Post
I just thought I'd post this since I just got done leveling my DP Blaster up to 30. I know a lot of people are worrying about the damage output the set gives outside of incendiary. While I'd like to see a few upgrades to the set myself, let me report the sorts of things that I do with my toons to help get a better view of the set's versatility.

Someone earlier reported that the set only does good damage when you're using incendiary, and because of that you should always use incendiary which takes away the set's unique factor. However true that is, damage isn't always the only concern. Granted I use incendiary almost all the time on my Blaster, but I swap ammo when the situation calls for it. So take a typical day in my Blaster's world. For comparison sake, I'll also put Fire Blast in here and what I would be doing if I had that.

Mission 1) I hop on my Blaster and get a team going. I default to Incendiary Ammo and kill things. My damage is good. If I had Fire Blast, my damage would be better.

Mission 2) One of our Controllers has to go and the team support is lacking a little. Because at this point it's more important for our team to stay alive than it is for me to do good damage, I switch to Chemical Ammo to lessen the incoming blows of the badguys. If I had Fire Blast, I'd have to look for more teammates quickly, or hand off inspirations to people.

Mission 3) The team has regrouped and we're fighting well again after getting a Defender. I no longer have to worry about team support, so I switch back to Incendiary Ammo. With Fire Blast, it'd just be business as usual.

Mission 4) The team goes and ends up fighting fire demons in a PI mission. As it would be silly to be using fire ammo, I switch to Cryo Ammo and up my damage on them while doing slows. If I was Fire Blast, I'd just have to suffer through it.

Mission 5) We now go to fight Carnies. I consider my usual incendiary, but remember that carnies are weak to lethal. So I switch to Lethal Ammo and do some -RES along with -DEF and knockdown. If Fire Blast, I'd just be doing the basic fire damage as per usual.

Mission 6) We run into a tough AV and wipe. While regrouping I glance around and see two other DP users. I coordinate with them and we all switch to Chemical Ammo for the AV fight, which drastically reduces his damage and we're able to survive enough to kill him. If I was using Fire Blast, I wouldn't be able to coordinate or conspire as my only option is to deal damage. We'd have to stock up on inspirations.

Mission 7) I decide to solo for a little while. I start off with Incendiary Ammo because I'm doing okay, but once I run into some harder enemies I switch to Lethal Ammo for the knockback, to keep them planted on the ground so they don't retaliate. With Fire Blast, I'd just have to pack inspirations.

Mission 8) I hop on my DP/Dark Corr, who generally defaults to Chemical Ammo so that I can stack -DMG with my Dark debuffs. However, I always switch to Incendiary Ammo when using HoB, and Lethal Ammo to solo in extreme safety. Fire Blast? Same experience all around.

It's not always about doing damage. If you're in a safe situation where you can default to Incendiary, then by all means do so. But no other set allows you to adapt to a situation and pull strings so that you're a step up. If Fire Blast, Archery, or Radiation are faced with a situation they can't handle, you have no options other than to pack inspirations or find some teammates. DP has the ability to look at the situation and pick what's best. That, I believe, is the reason the set doesn't pack the punch people expect it to.
Brilliant post. Bravo. Hopefully some people here will actually read this and take it to heart.

 

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Originally Posted by FunstuffofDoom View Post
Or, as I've put it, if X is Single Target damage, Y is Area of Effect Damage, and Z is utility, I want every set to be XYZ. And, perhaps, we'll call XYZ the set constant, K. K-Sub S, if other constants are in use.
Thing is, what you describe there is no "Equality", it's "Balance." Two very different things.

 

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Originally Posted by Scythus View Post
But we've already established that that's precisely how most of the sets already are, including DP. Its damage is pretty average, but it has a very unique utility of being able to change its secondary effects and Dispari has already written an example of how well DP does that. You seem to want it to do more damage which might have the potential of making it overpowered. The damage is already average for blast sets, why does it need to be any higher?

We're trying to tell you that damage does not solely matter. Its the secondary effects that also give you an edge in combat. Despite all of your protests it just keeps sounding like you want the set to be damage-centric like Fire Blast is.
At least as far as this thread is concerned, FunstuffofDoom already accepted the utility power can indeed be strong enough to be a counterweight in the "balance equation."

 

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Originally Posted by FunstuffofDoom View Post
For the love of God, man, do you read my posts except to extract parts of them for further argumentation? I conceded seven hours ago. We've both since posted. Currently, the argument has consisted of clarification of several arguments I used, and a critique of pragmatic views as applied to balance.
I have read them. They're still not clear and still sound contradictory. You were asking for an "equalness," describing some nebulous XYZ for every set and we argued that XYZ are there as close they can get but you and your friends were like "needs more damage to make XYZ" and absurdly stating that average damage was not good enough for XYZ despite all the other utility and this is where you keep confusing me because it just sounds like a big contradictory logic loop.

 

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I don't think you are really listening to FunStuffOfDoom or myself. If you are then you are being purposely obtuse. We aren't saying that it HAS to have more damage. We are saying that it feels weak to us and it needs SOMETHING.

That something could be additional damage in any number of ways, be it through aim or a bit more spread throughout the set, or keeping the -res of piercing rounds regardless of what rounds are used, or switching the percentage of lethal to other damage when ammo is switched.

But it could be additional duration or strength of the cold and chemical rounds. Dispari's anecdote about stacking chemical is relevant, but really that applies to stacking anything -- it could have been 3 sonics to stack -resistance or 3 FF or cold defenders to cap defense, or 3 cold blasters to crush recharge and movement speed. Stacking anything in this game yields extraordinary results. Since the duration of pistols secondary effects are short and the animations long it's difficult to stack the effects just using one DP. You also don't get any secondary effects on the opening power, which is the fast activating one that WOULD allow you to easily stack some debuff.

So, once again and for the final time -- Is dual pistols unplayable? No.

Is it overpowered? No, not even close to being overpowered.

Could it be tweaked a little bit up and made better without being overpowered. Yes, I think so.

50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM

Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad

 

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Originally Posted by Scythus View Post
I have read them. They're still not clear and still sound contradictory. You were asking for an "equalness," describing some nebulous XYZ for every set. We argued that [dual pistols is in line with the set constant, K], [however disagreements were had] and [ad hominem, ad hominem, straw man, I am confused by your convention.]
I edited your post a little. As I said, if you'd like to continue in such a vein, do so in a private message.

Ahem.

It seems to me that your basic complaint is something like the following. Please correct me if I have made an error in restating something.

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1.) The concept of a set constant AKA 'the nebulous XYZ' is vague, and poor tool to use for the issue at hand.
Consider the number 12. It can be found by adding the numbers 1, 5, and 6, or 2, 3, and 7, or 4, 4, and 4, and many other combinations. However, while each combination yields the number 12, every combination uses different numbers to get there. So, in a combination uses a high value the other two values will be correspondingly lower. You understand, so far?

The claim 'I and my friends' made, is that powers in general follow a similar trend, and that Dual Pistols did not. So while Fire Blast might be 5, 5, and 1, and Assault Rifle might be 3, 5, and 4, we felt that whatever numbers Dual Pistols had, they added up to eleven. Or something. But less than twelve.

Enough evidence has been provided contrary to that statement that I am no longer arguing it.

 

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Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea View Post
Dispari's anecdote about stacking chemical is relevant, but really that applies to stacking anything -- it could have been 3 sonics to stack -resistance or
Not really the same. Let's say you get enough stacking to keep -100 resist in the target, that still is only just doubling damage output, or an increase in effectiveness of +100%.

However, 2 defenders can theoretically take outgoing damage of a foe down to 10%, this is like increasing team survivability by +900%!!!


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3 FF or cold defenders to cap defense, or 3 cold blasters to crush recharge and movement speed.
Ah but now you talking defenders, defenders, by design, do this stacking, it's the phenomenon called as Power Multipliers. We are talking about a blast set, that on it's own, has the capability of being a power multiplier (with Toxic rounds, cold rounds are not that dangerous as there is a -75% recharge softcap)

 

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Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea View Post
I don't think you are really listening to FunStuffOfDoom or myself. If you are then you are being purposely obtuse. We aren't saying that it HAS to have more damage. We are saying that it feels weak to us and it needs SOMETHING.

That something could be additional damage in any number of ways, be it through aim or a bit more spread throughout the set, or keeping the -res of piercing rounds regardless of what rounds are used, or switching the percentage of lethal to other damage when ammo is switched.

But it could be additional duration or strength of the cold and chemical rounds. Dispari's anecdote about stacking chemical is relevant, but really that applies to stacking anything -- it could have been 3 sonics to stack -resistance or 3 FF or cold defenders to cap defense, or 3 cold blasters to crush recharge and movement speed. Stacking anything in this game yields extraordinary results. Since the duration of pistols secondary effects are short and the animations long it's difficult to stack the effects just using one DP. You also don't get any secondary effects on the opening power, which is the fast activating one that WOULD allow you to easily stack some debuff.

So, once again and for the final time -- Is dual pistols unplayable? No.

Is it overpowered? No, not even close to being overpowered.

Could it be tweaked a little bit up and made better without being overpowered. Yes, I think so.
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Originally Posted by FunstuffofDoom View Post
I edited your post a little. As I said, if you'd like to continue in such a vein, do so in a private message.

Ahem.

It seems to me that your basic complaint is something like the following. Please correct me if I have made an error in restating something.



Consider the number 12. It can be found by adding the numbers 1, 5, and 6, or 2, 3, and 7, or 4, 4, and 4, and many other combinations. However, while each combination yields the number 12, every combination uses different numbers to get there. So, in a combination uses a high value the other two values will be correspondingly lower. You understand, so far?

The claim 'I and my friends' made, is that powers in general follow a similar trend, and that Dual Pistols did not. So while Fire Blast might be 5, 5, and 1, and Assault Rifle might be 3, 5, and 4, we felt that whatever numbers Dual Pistols had, they added up to eleven. Or something. But less than twelve.
I'm sorry, both of you, but it's still sounding like the same "we're saying this and not this even though both sound exactly the same."

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Enough evidence has been provided contrary to that statement that I am no longer arguing it.
Fair enough. Too bad the flea guy still is.

And I still don't understand what "more" is suppose to be if it's not damage even though it very much sounds like what is being suggested. These, for example, make it clear that the arguments really are about damage.

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That something could be additional damage in any number of ways
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strength of the cold and chemical rounds.
The damage is average and the incendiary rounds actually bring more damage much like an AIM would. And last I checked on DP the slow and weaken effects of the latter two sets of rounds work just as much as any other slow or weaken I've seen in this game, so it must be damage you're referring to.

Ergo, this opening comment...

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We aren't saying that it HAS to have more damage.
...makes it all contradictory and a logic loop.

 

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Originally Posted by Starsman View Post
We are talking about a blast set, that on it's own, has the capability of being a power multiplier (with Toxic rounds, cold rounds are not that dangerous as there is a -75% recharge softcap)
So what do the PvP applications of Dual Pistols look like? Not as a blast set, because, as pointed out, animations hamper a high-DPS chain, but as another set of debuffs? Would two or three Dark/DP Defenders, or Rad/DP Corrupters, or what have you, be a new must-have for team PvP?