Dual Pistols better then I thought.

I disagree. The analyses that I have seen just did a straight damage comparison without accounting for resistances. Since lethal is the most common resistance among critters and players and since most of the damage of the set is lethal regardless of which ammo, the damage in actual play is lower than what the pure numbers would indicate.

The fact that you can change damage type to something that your enemy might be weak to gives it flexibility but does not make up for the lost damage, as I pointed out above. Here's a chart someone else compiled of all NPC resistances and weaknesses.

*Shrug* You think it's fine. I think it's just shy of fine.

Same end result: people cried "NERF!"

Hmmm....wonder if the name Boy Who Cried Nerf is taken anywhere?

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

By that argument, Archery and Assault Rifle are the weakest blast sets in the game.

By that argument, DP is better than archery because it can escape it's lethal damage more often than in just a single power. Smashing doesn't count.

Which is why the whole argument is flimsy.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

At least you understand how absurd the argument around lethal resistance being the only determinable factor of "suck" and "not suck" is.

Archery and Assault Rifle are 2 of the weakest single target blast sets, but they are high in AoE damage, at least per Starsman.

From a chart he posted in beta:

They start out higher than sonic, but that doesn't take into account sonic's resistance debuff nor critter resistances. You'll also note that DPs position in the chart is dependent on Piercing shot hitting 3 targets, which isn't as hard to do as it was originally, but its hardly something that happens most times you use it.

You will also note that both archery and AR are slightly ahead of DP in single target unless you use incendiary rounds but WAY ahead in AoE damage. If DP matched archery and AR in those categories, I think more folks might be satisfied (we'll never get everyone satisfied).

You like DP as is, fine. I don't. But don't try to paint me as some uninformed, rabid, idiot.

You'll also note that only lethal, cryo, and chem rounds are slightly below AR and Archery on that list. Fire rounds; however, surpass all three and then some. The set's fine. Great way to disprove your arguments about DP being weak.

For the upteenth time, to what benefit?

Fine, with incendiary ammunition, a DP character is average at single target damage. However, this only lasts as long as the refuse to change ammo types. Since the recurring point is that ammo-changing provides utility to render the set balanced, 'twould stand to reason that an inability to change ammo types ('cause you're keeping it locked on incendiary to be decent at ST, remember.) removes that utility, and thus unbalances the set.

Okay, let's go over this really slow for you.

Incendiary Ammunition sacrifices any mitigatory secondary effect for additional damage.

Cryo, Chem, and Standard do not.

Fire Blast sacrifices any mitigatory secondary effect for additional damage.

AR, Archery, and Rad do not.

Incendiary Ammunition should be above the other sets because it's sacrificing secondary effect, which all of the other sets have while being fully effective AoE sets. Cryo, Chem, and Standard should be on par with those because they're providing a secondary benefit.

That's the big thing for me. People constantly tout the set's versatility as a major advantage, yet constantly cite Incendiary numbers only. Under the assumption that you're only going to be using Incendiary ammo because it has better damage, then swapping ammo is actually a PENALTY that one has to suffer in the rare cases Fire is resisted, or mitigation is mandatory. Under these conditions, the "versatility" to swap ammo is not a benefit. It is a drawback.

I'm with Umbral on this one. Incendiary Ammo should be above average and the rest of the ammo types should be average, at least. You can't use all ammo types at the same time, so at any one particular time, you're weaker than all other sets AND you're under the gun to have much greater knowledge of your enemies and much greater situational awareness.

Here's the funny part: Dual Pistols requires a lot more work and a lot more systems knowledge JUST TO BE ALMOST AVERAGE! Every set needs to excel at something if its user is skilled or knowledgeable, and I've no problem with Dual Pistols excelling at adapting to any situation. But adapting to a situation only allows it to just about break even, never excel. And that's a problem.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Archery's secondary effect is pretty meaningless though. It gets +15% ACC and low end or something. And DP still has +10% ACC all the time so... Archery really has no combat secondary effect, buff or debuff. Not that I think it makes your argument in general invalid, just sayin'.

EDIT:
For what I'm trying to say, Fire and Archery have no real combat secondary effects. Fire should be tops on damage, with Archery behind, then Incendiary DP. In that order (in my opinion). There may be one or two things inbetween Archery and Incendiary DP, but not too many. Non-Incendiary may be too low on the list. It should be slightly under average probably, but not that far under.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

We agree, then.

If you play smart, you can do much much better than that. Like jumping into Lethal to use Piercing rounds then jumping into fire to exploit the extra fire damage on a foe that now has -resist thanks to lethal.

DP is intended, by design, to be middle of the pack, and Fire rounds, is intended to be the damage you would be doing if you had Aim to spam (that's another thing on my numbers, every set up there assumes Aim Spamming)

DP AoE damage is just slightly below the median in non-fire, and just slightly over the median in fire. (dont look at the sorting in the list, look at the numbers, there are a lot of ties in the list and sorting ends up being alphabetical.)

ST, yes, out of fire the set is definitively under the median but it's exactly at the median in fire.

The set has the potential to do expected damage, you just have to go into fire mode for that. The reason for using other rounds is not damage but strategical. It's the design of the set, not a flaw or unbalance. As it stands the set's secondary effects can be very powerful and damage is the price you pay to use them.

I defer to Samuel_Tow's point, then. If skilled used of a keystone power is required to yield middle-of-the-road performance, is a set balanced?

As an example, Kheldians have the similar necessity of constantly switching forms and toggles to reach peak performance, but upon doing so, they are incredible, not average.

I offered the opinion that the set did not sit right with me. I was asked to justify that position, and I am doing so. However, from the first, my position has included the stance that I am happy people enjoy the set. It currently isn't for me, and I have been explaining why.

And, what if I happen to find damage fun? What if I really, really enjoy playing a peak character? What if something has to be capable of ridiculous performance for me to want to play it? Is my fun any less valid than yours because of that? Should I not be allowed to play because my end goal is to do things others can't? Is the work I do to get such a character meaningless because I use it the wrong way? Think about it.

I would then ask for the evidence that said skilled player truthfully has pushed DP as far as it should be pushed. I already noted how you can use Lethal Piercing rounds, switch into fire, and do much more damage, and that's just an example. Thanks the the lethal rounds -def, you can also slot -res procs in those attacks to increase your potential damage.

But there is another thing, true, a skilled player should be able to excel the set at something, but that does not mean he should be able to excel it at damage.

That's not to mention, even in Fire mode you never entirely renounce to your mitigation capabilities. You always will have access to Suppressive Fire, while Fire Blast gets it's damage superiority while entirely renouncing to all forms of mitigation.

My personal opinion, in the end, is the set is "balanced".

This does NOT mean the set is perfect, this does not mean anyone that disagrees with me is wrong. It's just an opinion, balancing is not really an all-or-nothing thing, after all.

I myself did propose some "improvements" during testing but they were, obviously, not accepted.

Most my proposal was based around Suppressive Fire. Making the power behave differently with different round types.

Example:
Under Fire mode, Suppressive Fire does 1.8 DS of damage and only a 2 second hold.

Under Cold it stays as it is.
Under Lethal, it does 1.5 and 4s stun.

Under toxic and ice, rounds that are intended for mitigation more than anything, I'd keep it just as it is now.

This would give fire damage higher than average damage and a boost to lethal while keeping ice/toxic as survival rounds.

That depends on your definition of "ridiculous". There's no absolute standard to measure performance on, beyond the minimal standard that the devs design to: able to solo at +0/x1 without IOs. Pretty much all considerations of performance are relative. It's fine if one choice of AT/sets has greater potential in one aspect of performance than others, but if you're not happy unless you're playing something that clearly outshines every other possible choice by a wide margin, then you're not happy unless you're playing a badly designed game.

On the larger topic of Dual Pistols: It seems like a set designed for corruptors and defenders. The selection of secondary effects seems much more handy when you have a significant secondary effect multiplier in the AT, and the fluid attacks seem well-tailored for a character that doesn't mix up the pistol blasts with attacks from their secondary. Also, Dual Pistols is the only blast set I can think of with a direct synergy with Sonic Resonance: +resist and -damage combine quite nicely.

I suppose the counter to that claim is simply a demand for proof. Can you show me --and I mean actually show me. Not theoretical work. A demorecord, or a youtube video, or something-- or a DP/Whatever character excelling some way?

You've done a very good job of laying that out. Thank you.

I was getting hyperbolic at the end, there. I don't want the I Win button. But, if I enjoy the work, time, and effort that go into making a character as strong as the system will let me, is that a lesser form of enjoyment? Have the Devs released some edict from on high that the game must be played their way, and no other? Have they got some sort of vision they're trying to adhere to?

Well, not so much an edict as an occasional sledgehammer when we don't play like they want us to. And yes, they do have a vision of risk v. reward that they try to adhere to, although it is a moving target and does not appear to be the laughable 1 hero = 3 NPCs from Statesman days.

Some of the times I've gotten most upset with the devs in this game have been when they try to impose their vision on us. It was prevalent during Statesman's reign, less so with Positron, and the verdict is still out for War Witch.

*shrug* The charts make assumptions, some of which I disagree with. I'm curious how the single target damage accounts for Voltaic Sentinel's contributions, since it doesn't necessarily shoot the single target you want it to.

And Ice Blast is in a far lower position than it should be - for Corruptors at least, where the animations on the single target chain are 1 sec, 1 sec, and 1.07 sec for Bolt/Blast/BIB. Given decent recharge, it's very close to Fire (and higher if you don't give the DoT time to burn out on Blaze) for single target.

But I'd imagine that everybody forgets about Ice Blast anyway, since there are posts here saying how wonderful it is to have a hold at low level on a Blaster. How about one 4 levels earlier, that has a shorter recharge and instead of requiring heavy slotting to permahold a lt, can permahold a boss with the same slotting?

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

Don't have the record but I seen two DP defenders bring an AV down to 10% damage by combining their Toxic rounds (non permanently, think a third blaster will make it pretty much perma 10%.)

DP shares one interesting trait with Sonic Blast: It's secondary effects stack amazingly well. The more Dual Pistol users in the team, the much safer that fight can be (provided you don't have 4 each using different rounds.)


No, but all that means is they will not nerf the set if you find a way to make it perform much stronger than they expected (unless you start soloing Hamidon.)

They tend to have a vision for every set they design. They design sets with goals and a flavor. The term Jack of all trade, master of none, was pushed a lot during testing of Dual Pistols. It also was noted that secondary effect slotting could be one of the huge advantages of this set.

Looking at plain DPA of attacks, though, I can tell you recharge boosts are not going to make the set too strong. Fire Rounds, though, do the damage they do with just enhancements. Every other set in my scores (weather you agree with them or not) are using Aim. Point of this? Base Fire Round DPS for DS is higher than base (no aim) damage for other "average" sets. Damage buffs will have a stronger effect on Fire Round DP than any set other than Fire Blast.

Even Arcanaville has noted on this: Voltaic Sentinel is often ignored when talking about Electric, I did not ignore it. It adds a lot of damage even if it's hard to keep it in the same target as you. When fighting one foe, though, that's the only thing it has to attack. I also think many players also ignore the snipe, I don't, even if it's very hard to use in combat it still is not impossible to do so.