Dual Pistols better then I thought.

Yeah, I've always touted PR as a powerful tool for single target damage, but I've never considered it of much use for AoE. I've talked to a number of DP players in game that think that DP is supposed to be better at AoE damage than almost any other set because it has "4 AoEs". PR isn't an AoE. Its thin arc and limited number of targets, coupled with the long recharge time, prevent it from being treated like Fireball or Empty Clips. As far as I'm concerned, it's a single target attack that can get some "free" secondary targets, just like Headsplitter and Golden Dragonfly.

In my calculations, I fully factored in Voltaic Sentinel into my calculations and I go nowhere near the same level as you did. In fact, I found Elec Blast to be pretty much where player experience has found it to perform in single target blasting. As to using the Snipe in mid-combat, there is no decent reason to use the Snipe in mid-combat: the animation takes so long that you'd actually do more damage just waiting for your other powers to recharge or using an AoE to get a little bit of damage on that target, even if you have to waste a little bit of endurance. The fact that it's interruptible so that you can actually lose out on the animation time "investment" makes it even less valuable. Snipes are largely useless powers where actual ST damage is concerned because they simply take too long to deal too little damage with too much risk of not getting anything out of it. They're a nice way to get some single target alpha, but, once the fur starts flying, snipes should, almost universally, be left untouched.

I'm still curious about how exactly you got those numbers. I know that both you and Arcanaville both use PeakDR systems (a system that I don't have even the remotest trust in thanks to assumptions that ignore fundamental elements of attack string design), but I've never actually seen any math or calculations along the way that allow anyone to check your calculations. While I can respect wanting to keep your work to yourself, I'm not entirely sure I can trust what is touted as accurate and valuable information when it's actually in rather stark contrast to other calculations as well as widely gained player experience.

Then I have to ask what difficulty you solo this at, because difficulties which spawn large spawns don't lend themselves to Piercing Rounds too much. The target cap ensures you won't hit much of the spawn even if God had them all stand in a line and wait.

Hitting multiple targets on an alpha is easy enough. You can almost always line up at least two, and a third is often close enough to catch the shockwave. However, in combat, I've almost never been able to hit more than a single person, for the simple fact that enemies move around too much, and they tend to form in rows, not columns. That, and for the fact that by the time Piercing Rounds has recharged, the enemies have surrendered to Avoid code and scattered to the winds.

That, and I Hover practically all the time to avoid melee attacks. I've died far too many times to keep chancing it at ground level. That puts me on a different plane from the rest of the spawn, making things even more difficult.

But even if we supposed I could hit multiple targets on every shot. How does a resistance debuff once every 20 seconds help me make a dent into a large spawn? How, specifically, when chance can put me up against upwards of a dozen minions if I get a lieutenant-less spawn. Sure, I'll debuff three, to kill with the following Rain of Bullets, but what about the rest? I can't wait 20 seconds for the power to recharge, because by that time either I'll be dead, or they'll have been killed off for the most part. I don't want to run away and ditch aggro every fight.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Well, considering both Fire and Archery are crazy strong.....

This has been my experience.
Although i've found Dual Pistols to be pretty effective, the fact that my main DP users are a Rad/DP and a DP/Dark probably factors significantly into that. The sets i've paired Dual Pistols with are both very effective on their own, even solo. Even Ping Pong Ball Blast would probably do well with those two. My Dual Pistols/Energy Manipulation is still only level 13, which i would expect is the alt that will notice DP's relative strength the most.

How about comparing to something else that solos well, then? How about comparing it to any Scrapper you care to mention?

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

You want to compare soloing Dual Pistols to a Scrapper to prove that Dual Pistols underperforms?

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

Makes perfect (non)sense to me.

You know, in normal missions, I really don't see the difference in what ammo a player uses, but when up against AVs, I find Lethal with it's -resist, to be the best choice.

OK, this is starting to get in my nerves. Kindly point out to me where I said I wanted to compare Dual Pistols (as opposed to Blasters in general) to Scrappers with the sole intent of proving it's underperforming. Hell, let's make it an easier challenge. Point me to where I said, not alluded to, not implied, but said in straight, unambiguous text "Dual Pistols is underperforming."

Because I'm starting to get sick of being hit with a straw man every time post a single sentence. And especially from you, Dispari. You ought to be better than this.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Or even easier! Let's port Dual Pistols to Scrappers, and let them decide if they're an underperforming set!

^_^

Sure. Then we'd just have to mandate Scrappers to take Manipulation secondaries and tweak their modifiers into the Blaster ones and... Wait a minute!

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

That's pretty much what I thought when you posted the "vs Scrappers" thing. In summary:

* You said DP is bad at soloing
* I said I have no issues soloing with lethal ammo
* You said "I guess I'm used to fire/archery"
* Someone said fire/archery are extremely powerful
* You said "Let's compare DP to Scappers then"

So what exactly WERE you going for, then? I'm curious now.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

I am also curious.

Poor soloing power, which is what Sam did state, does not equal underpowered. However, it seems that a certain amount of snark is being treated as arguments, which seems less than helpful.

Well, Ammo is situational really.

Against the UBERMOBS that are AVs, Lethal is the obvious choice.

Solo, I like Toxic for the -Dam.

Fire is great for doing as much damage in as short amount of time and possible, and Cryo is good for when you really don't want a mob attacking that often.

This is where your train of thought breaks. I said "I guess I'm used to Fire and Archery" not as evidence that the set solos poorly, but as evidence that my judgement may not be objective. I'm well aware Archery and Fire are considered overpowered, which is why I felt it necessary to point out that, yes, my subjective experience may be coloured by unreal expectations.

That the set solos poorly has nothing to do with Fire and Archery, and all to do with the fact that it kills me in places where my other Blasters (Blasters OTHER than Archery and Devices, Blasters such as Rad, Psi or Energy) do not. I mentioned Archery and Devices as a caveat. In retrospect, I should have used this as a trap to see how many people will jump down my throat as soon as I so much as mentioned Scrappers in this thread, because that's what you guys did - you ignored context and train of thought and latched onto a single sentence.

Then when "someone" who's been basically taking pot shots at anyone who doesn't run his posts through a PR check took my post completely out of context and said "But Archery and Fire are overpowered!" even though I said as much multiple times, I didn't feel like giving that point the light of day, so I stuck in a non-sequitiur there, expecting that people who have been obviously following the thread like you have would pick up on context and know what I meant, but apparently I painted myself into a corner by not writing up a long explanation of exactly what I meant and exactly why I meant it.

And you know what the most fun part is? The moment I take the time to write up a clear, unambiguous, exhaustive explanation of my entire train of thought in the finest detail so that no-one can wilfully misunderstand it, I'll simply get accused of being long-winded and told that no-one wants to read my walls of text. Charming, isn't it?

Let me spell this whole storyline for you, because I'm tired of seeing you act below your your level.

Step one: I state that Dual Pistols is weak at soloing. It doesn't suck, it's not necessarily underpowered, it isn't even bad. But when I play the sets, I know which ones are good and which ones aren't, and this one is on the low side. It has decent attacks, but everything takes so long to animate that I take MUCH more damage than I have any business taking. I said this before, and I stand by it now.

Step two: I so much as MENTION Archery, Fire Blast and Scrappers. I establish clear context that I am not using this to judge the set's objective, practical validity, but everyone ignores this. I bring them up not to compare to Dual Pistols, but to express my preferred level of solo play. As I've explained numerous times, I'm dissatisfied with the entire AT and where it's balanced, as I feel Blasters are still far too dangerous to solo for what they bring to the table, and if I had my way, their baseling performance would closer to that of Scrappers. I bring up Archery and Fire Blast to explain what it would take for Blasters to reach this performance, but I am simultaneously aware that they ARE outliers, which is the point - if it takes an outlier overpowered set to reach the kind of performance I'm looking for, then there are more problems than JUST Dual Pistols.

Step three: I get called out on a claim I never made. I blow it off and apparently shoot myself in the foot by not providing seven paragraphs of explanation, safe in the knowledge that if I had, I'd have shot myself in the foot for providing too much explanation no-one would read anyway. I'm accused of wanting Dual Pistols to be overpowered like Archery and Fire Blast, which not only did I not state as such, but have actually stated I do NOT want. My reply to compare to Scrappers was more a comparison between BLASTERS AS A WHOLE and Scrappers than between Dual Pistols and Scrappers, which I didn't feel I had to specify because I thought comparing one set from one AT to AN ENTIRE OTHER AT would be so stupid no-one would assume that's what I meant, but apparently I have the reputation of a very stupid man who's likely to make those connections. Too bad, so sad.

Step four: I get pissed off at people intentionally misreading things I've said and people refusing to read into context, so I spend half an hour writing up an over-long explanation no-one is going to read about exactly what I meant when I said "Scrapper" and why I placed a comma there instead of just leaving a space. I wouldn't have thought this was necessary, but since you guys are so adamant about misquoting me, there you go.

And, by the way, when I said "quote where I said," I meant just that. Quote the sentence where I said what you claim I said. Not alluded to, not suggested, not inferred. SAID. And you point me to fairly large posts that seem to maybe suggest what you're saying I said, but when I read them, they still read just fine to me. Could you maybe point me to WHAT I said that led you to believe this? Because I re-read my old posts, and I still don't see it.

*edit*
Just for the record, the "Archery/Fire" comment was not in response to your post. It was a post script addendum intended to clarify my own post and provide a bit of context. It was most certainly not me responding to you that "Oh, you're wrong because I'm comparing this to Archery and Fire Blast." Not only did I not actually say anything even remotely like this, it was not an answer to you, which is why your sequence of events breaks there.

*edit*
Oh, and then there's this that I didn't see the first two times I read your post:

Really? Is that what I said? Let's follow that link, then:

Where in this post do I mention Dual Pistols? I mention "it," but even if you check the quote I was responding to, you will not find any explanation what "it" actually is. You assume "it" is Dual Pistols, but "it" is actually Blaster performance in this case, since that's what the quote of the quote of the quote was talking about. Theoretical, overall Blaster performance. Archery and Fire Blast is where I feel Blaster performance should be. Not in terms of damage, but in terms of "I am not afraid to enter into a fight" feel of reliability. Most Blasters don't have that. Most Blasters I play make me feel reluctant to pick fights because I know that even if I don't die, I'll be seriously hurt. Fire Blast and Archery allow me to have the kind of confidence in my ability that a Scrapper would give me.

Dual Pistols is only tangentially related to Blaster performance by virtue of being a Blaster set, but when I bring up overall Blaster performance, I can't really talk about just one set, so bringing Dual Pistols in this is out of context. I could have brought it up as an incredibly weak set exception, but it doesn't take a genius to tell that it's not, hence why I didn't feel I needed to specify. Dual Pistols does not compare to Scrappers. Dual Pistols does not compare to Scrapper sets. BLASTERS compare to Scrappers, and Blaster PERFORMANCE compares to Scrapper performance, and neither comes down to a single set.

Just as a general rule of thumb - when you quote people, do quote people instead of trying to paraphrase and rephrase, especially when the point is to bring forth evidence of who said what when.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Dammit Sam! You should of used a space instead of that comma you used! Geez!

That said,I've never found any blaster to be on par with scrappers for soloing ability. But then, I've never seen played a Scrapper that felt like it could dish out the damage of a Fire or Archery Blaster.

As for Dual Pistols, I feel scrappers can match them in damage. I could be wrong, it's more of a "feel" thing.

Awesome post. Thank you.

I don't mind your walls of text. I usually find them quite eloquent and thought provoking.