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Another_Fan

By Another_Fan,
Posted on: 2010-02-08 05:15 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Humility View Post
*shrug* have fun paying 150K for circuit boards because some marketeer thinks it's funny to screw you.
Last week, I paid 1m apiece (blueside) for some common salvage I don't even remember the name of. I remember thinking that if all common salvage cost 1m apiece, I might actually begin bothering to sell mine instead of deleting them on sight.

 

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Originally Posted by Tokyo View Post
It's survival of the fittest redside. You just weren't fit.

Oh boy. So much wrong in so little space. But if you want to put social metaphors on the game, its a test of character and you failed.

 

Posted

I've tried redside for awhile now (50 Corr, 50 Brute (deleted), 33 Brute, 26 Corr) and I find that I still prefer blueside. I enjoy the higher population, brighter scenery, superior epic pools, larger market and greater conceptual freedom. Heroside you at least have some leeway to pretend you're a freelance hero, but redside is more heavy-handed on pushing the project DESTINY thing on you.

I prefer the focused, specialist nature of the blueside ATs. Of their redside counterparts, only Brutes and Corruptors appeal to me. Stalkers do more damage than Scrappers on paper, but fewer AoE attacks means that in an actual team situation their real damage output falls far behind. Masterminds are theoretically the most powerful AT, but being dependent on pets is troublesome on things like speed ITFs and does not mix well with my fast, fluid and highly mobile playstyle.

I enjoy tinkering with IOs and playing the market, and most of my characters are blueside where I can draw on the resources of my vast marketeering base. The blueside market has a much larger transaction volume and provides more opportunities for a casual player. The redside market is less active and before AE, it also had the problem that salvage prices were abnormally low, making it hard for a new player to earn money, though this has since been fixed.

One area where redside clearly outdoes blue is in storytelling. A lot of contacts are well-written and have personality, starting in the early game with Bocor and Radio. Arcs like High Roller's Last Gamble, The Aeon Conspiracy, Khur'rekt Revenge and Oh, Wretched Man! are Paragon Studio's story team at their finest, when compared to a lot of relatively bland blueside content. On the other hand, I play task forces 90% of the time, and the lack of a way to level up from 15-50 on taskforces redside is a major turnoff.

I still enjoy playing redside, both as a change of pace and because i love my Corruptor, but I'm always going to spend most of my time on blue. I don't meet many incompetents who "need a tank" or "need an emp", since I don't waste time playing with stupid people; birds of a feather flock together.

 

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Originally Posted by Bright Shadow View Post


Unless they're Arachnos Soldiers or Widows...
As I said, leaving aside the epic ATs. Kheldians are likewise different from this "general rule".

 

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Originally Posted by Ben_Arizona View Post
As I said, leaving aside the epic ATs. Kheldians are likewise different from this "general rule".
Kheldians differ in that they suck more than the standard AT!

I would still disagree though that heroes are better for teaming. Specifically because they specialize in things that have a virtual cap, where there's no point in having more of it. Defenders and Tankers (which are two of my least favorite ATs) specialize in things that cap quickly: team support and tanking. Consider a situation where your redside team has enough of both of those things, which is pretty easy to do, speaking from experience. Now what would you gain from replacing a Brute with a Tanker? If he's already staying alive and holding aggro just fine, nothing. In fact, you'd lose a significant amount of damage. Same goes for replacing a support toon who can already keep his team alive with a support toon who does less damage.

Or, as I like to say, redside has gotten along just fine without ever needing higher buff or tank numbers, and we have the hardest content around. So why would we suddenly start needing Defenders and Tankers?

I prefer redside ATs because they're all damage-centric, while really only two of the blueside ATs care about damage. So no matter who I invite to a redside team, they're dealing damage. All the redside ATs do their other jobs well enough that there's no point in any of them specializing in things if that specialization means they lose in other departments (damage being the most common thing to lose).

I think villains make fine teams. In fact, nearly all of my most powerful teams have been run with villains, because Brutes and Corruptors are just that awesome. Doms these days are pretty snazzy too. Though honestly, I'm waiting for GR so I can make teams of Brutes, Scrappers, Doms, Blasters, Corruptors, and Controllers.

That's just one person's opinion though.

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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Dispari View Post
I would still disagree though that heroes are better for teaming. Specifically because they specialize in things that have a virtual cap, where there's no point in having more of it. Defenders and Tankers (which are two of my least favorite ATs) specialize in things that cap quickly: team support and tanking. Consider a situation where your redside team has enough of both of those things, which is pretty easy to do, speaking from experience. Now what would you gain from replacing a Brute with a Tanker? If he's already staying alive and holding aggro just fine, nothing. In fact, you'd lose a significant amount of damage. Same goes for replacing a support toon who can already keep his team alive with a support toon who does less damage.

Or, as I like to say, redside has gotten along just fine without ever needing higher buff or tank numbers, and we have the hardest content around. So why would we suddenly start needing Defenders and Tankers?

I prefer redside ATs because they're all damage-centric, while really only two of the blueside ATs care about damage. So no matter who I invite to a redside team, they're dealing damage. All the redside ATs do their other jobs well enough that there's no point in any of them specializing in things if that specialization means they lose in other departments (damage being the most common thing to lose).

I think villains make fine teams. In fact, nearly all of my most powerful teams have been run with villains, because Brutes and Corruptors are just that awesome. Doms these days are pretty snazzy too. Though honestly, I'm waiting for GR so I can make teams of Brutes, Scrappers, Doms, Blasters, Corruptors, and Controllers.

That's just one person's opinion though.
I was thinking of making a Dual Pistols Defender come GR - my character concept says she's a cop so she'd have to be a bluesider, right? - but I think you just talked me out of it. I've enjoyed every Corr I've made so far, I'm starting to wonder why I should switch to a Def now...

 

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Originally Posted by Bright Shadow View Post
Did the OP just get two more bars of bad rep over this thread? Seriously, guys?
LOL, now THAT's a villain for ya! Go OP! \m/

 

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Originally Posted by Laevateinn View Post

I prefer the focused, specialist nature of the blueside ATs. Of their redside counterparts, only Brutes and Corruptors appeal to me. Stalkers do more damage than Scrappers on paper, but fewer AoE attacks means that in an actual team situation their real damage output falls far behind. Masterminds are theoretically the most powerful AT, but being dependent on pets is troublesome on things like speed ITFs and does not mix well with my fast, fluid and highly mobile playstyle.

People keep saying the blueside ATs are more specialized than the redside ats but I just don't see it.

Code:
Blue              Red
Scrapper          Brute
Defender          Corrupter
Controller        Dominator
Tanker            Mastermind
Blaster           Stalker
Scrappers have roughly the same solo level damage as brutes and a little less survivability which in return for they gain tactical flexibility and the ability to pause. Call it a push here.

Defenders are more buff/debuff oriented corrupter more damage oriented. All things being equal I would never want to solo a defender up.

1 to the vills

Controller vs Dominator. The Controller controls, damages and buff/debuffs, the Dominator controls and damages.

1 to the heroes

Tanker vs Mastermind. No comparison

1 to the vills

Blaster vs Stalker. Blaster has AOE, Single Target and some buff/debuff/control. Stalker ST specialists.

1 to the heroes.

With the exception of the epics seems like a reasonable breakdown between specialist and generalist between comparable ATs.

 

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Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
And the late-game zones tend to make very little sense too.

-Why are there Rikti just walking around Founders Falls?
-Yeah, possessed scientists just happen to hang out in Portal Corp parking lots taking pot shots at heroes that frequent there...
-The security in the Zig must be a joke. I mean, there's inmates just standing around right outside the walls.
1 & 2 = Desipte the player convenience of going back and forth (and even being sent back and forth by contacts), like in most MMORPGs, later level zones are actually later in the overall storyline. So by the time of FF, the Rikti invasion has reached the point where they've got an occupation started instead of just raiding. At Portal Corp, the heroes and scientists aren't actually hanging around, as far as the story's concerned - the scientists likely only went bad very soon before the heroes arrived to get through the portals to the Shadow Shards, or where ever (haven't reached that point on any character, so just speculating).

As for the Zig, given the number of non-super villains in the place, and the way things are set up, I'd say that they're not just standing around outside the walls - they're in the prison's yard when the Arachnos breakout/the riot begins. Or is there a blueside mission that takes you there and shows it different?

 

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Originally Posted by Another_Fan View Post
1 to the vills...
I don't understand what you mean. Are points being awarded for specialization or self-sufficiency?

Blasters are obviously less self-sufficient than Stalkers; they do better damage, but they're made of paper.

Scrappers really are less self-sufficient than Brutes. Brutes have a lower base damage but the ability to ramp it up to a higher level than Scrappers normally can, but since Scrappers have higher base numbers, they respond better to external buffs. (If you think Scrappers are as self-sufficient as Brutes, imagine trying to use a Scrapper in Granite Armor.)

Masterminds are obviously more self-sufficient than Tanks. Tanks do make it easy for other AT's to do their jobs unmolested, so they have their own role to fill.

Defenders are more reliant on other other AT's doing damage than Corruptors are, but they are a stronger force multiplier, so the asserted dichotomy is obvious here.

Doms and Controllers are both game-breaking death machines, but a Controller still doesn't really hit his full potential without having other players to buff. The Controller is also marginally less self-sufficient in that she may have endurance issues (obviously this varies by secondary) and is likely to be hoist with her own petard (mezzed and then eaten by minions).

VEATs are a good force multiplier, but they're also rather self-sufficient, while HEATs need some serious IO work to solo well.

 

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Originally Posted by Another_Fan View Post
Controller vs Dominator. The Controller controls, damages and buff/debuffs, the Dominator controls and damages.
Correction: Controllers control and buff/debuff, but only do any real damage after 41. Dominators control and do damage from level 1 onwards.

Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans

 

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Originally Posted by Teeth View Post
I don't understand what you mean. Are points being awarded for specialization or self-sufficiency?
It's all opinion-based. But just to complicate things, I usually compare the ATs like this:

Scrapper - Stalker
Tanker - Brute
Defender - Corruptor
Controller - Mastermind
Blaster - Dominator

But then, the ATs I don't like are Stalker, Tanker, and Defender. I like MMs but don't usually invite them because they're often more solo-focused than I like. I like to have Controllers on the team but not to play them. The ATs I seek first for teaming are Scrappers, Brutes, Blasters, Dominators, Corruptors, and Controllers. Then if I don't have those I can look for the others.

Or, if you prefer:

Stalkers are Scrappers done wrong.
Brutes are Tankers done right.
Corruptors are Defenders done right.
Masterminds are pet Controllers.
Dominators are mini-Blasters with mez.

Overall I like 3 of the hero ATs and 4 of the villain ATs. To personally play, 2 heroes and 4 villains. On a team I would usually seek 3/3. So I give a slight nod to villains as being better ATs in general.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

 

Posted

It all sums up to the fact that people like vibrant colorful worlds. Which COV lacks to some degree. I never understood why they didn't make at least one beautiful zone to bring in the blue siders.

Still I hear so many others bring up the markets and bring up content...nah they just like the blue skies of COH and the higher population and that's it lol.


 

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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill View Post
Redside needs more content. And alternate zones that don't look like they're designed in the world's biggest garbage dump. Even the area that should, in theory, be more geared towards tourists (St. Martial) is bland, broken up, and trashy. And really - even with construction going on, would any tyrant let their "capitol" (or at least headquarters) get as much garbage on the streets as Grandville has, once you step off the armor plated walkways?
I've somewhat come to grips with the "grittiness" of CoV, but I still wonder why in the heck they make it so hard to get around zones for non-flyers. I mean, those huge Arachnos bases are a pain in the rear. Getting to the ferry in St. Martial is like a stinking maze. Same with getting from the "core" of Grandville to The Gutter (not going to use the entrances with the nice purple-con Banes, thanks!), from The Gutter to outside the wall, etc.

Also agreed on the content. I'd really like to see more contacts in St. Martial. I recently got my Dom to 50, my Brute is at 46, and my Widow is now 34. I am tired of Nerva. Tired of traveling to the far reaches of it to get to Naylor. Tired of Timothy Raymond, sick of doing Kelly Uqua's bidding. Even getting tired of Psymon. Over in St. Martial though, Hard Luck's missions take no time at all, Jezebel Jones and Vivacious Verandi take even *less* time. Basse isn't much better. So you're left with about 30 missions for Hardcase dealing with the Wailers. Oh joy. I'm still probably going to run Hardcase on my Widow anyway - even if it is taking running the Talos Island mayhem again to get introduced.


(For 30-35, I really would like to do Crimson Revenant and Slot Machine's arcs. But nobody EVER seems to take on Shipyard, and finding 200 Marcone bosses is just mind-numbing.)

Suggestions:
Super Packs Done Right
Influence Sink: IO Level Mod/Recrafting
Random Merit Rolls: Scale cost by Toon Level

 

Posted

If you're even trying to equate individual villain archetypes with individual hero archetypes, you're doing it wrong.

They're just different. Period.

Hero archetypes are designed to complement each other. A Defender on its own may spend hours trying to go through a mission. Sure, maybe she won't die thanks to her awesome debuffs or buffs, but her low damage just makes it hard for her to tear through enemies. Now, give her a Blaster, and she'll make the Blaster nearly indestructible, while the Blaster tears down enemies.

On the villain side, it's different. Sure, if you put a Dominator (Oh what's that, there is no Blaster equivalent?!!) and a Corruptor together, they could make an indestructible, wrecking machine. It won't be as strong of an indestructible, wrecking machine as the Hero version. On the other hand, when left alone, both the Dominator and Corruptor are more capable than a lone Blaster, or a lone Defender.

That's how I compare villain archetypes to hero archetypes.

Granted, that's not why I don't play hero side.

Have you ever had the misfortune of doing some of the old-time story arcs on hero side?! THEY ARE A PAIN IN THE BUTT! Not only do they constantly ask to go around the gazillion zones within Paragon City, but they're not freakin' updated!

Last time I got a contact telling me to kill 20 Council in Steel Canyon! NEWS FLASH! 5th Column have taken over, numb nuts! I spent a full hour trying to find 20 live and healthy Council without getting molested by 5th Column bosses!

I raged so bad during that mission that I just decided to quit hero ATs for a good, good while!

 

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Originally Posted by gec72 View Post
I've somewhat come to grips with the "grittiness" of CoV, but I still wonder why in the heck they make it so hard to get around zones for non-flyers. I mean, those huge Arachnos bases are a pain in the rear. Getting to the ferry in St. Martial is like a stinking maze. Same with getting from the "core" of Grandville to The Gutter (not going to use the entrances with the nice purple-con Banes, thanks!), from The Gutter to outside the wall, etc.

Also agreed on the content. I'd really like to see more contacts in St. Martial. I recently got my Dom to 50, my Brute is at 46, and my Widow is now 34. I am tired of Nerva. Tired of traveling to the far reaches of it to get to Naylor. Tired of Timothy Raymond, sick of doing Kelly Uqua's bidding. Even getting tired of Psymon. Over in St. Martial though, Hard Luck's missions take no time at all, Jezebel Jones and Vivacious Verandi take even *less* time. Basse isn't much better. So you're left with about 30 missions for Hardcase dealing with the Wailers. Oh joy. I'm still probably going to run Hardcase on my Widow anyway - even if it is taking running the Talos Island mayhem again to get introduced.


(For 30-35, I really would like to do Crimson Revenant and Slot Machine's arcs. But nobody EVER seems to take on Shipyard, and finding 200 Marcone bosses is just mind-numbing.)
I agree with everything you said . Well written . Shipyard is a crusty punk though , so most will just leave him alone unless you can debuff him to death . Hopefully someday they will lower the Marcone boss quota to 150 maybe , who knows

 

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The giant monster in Sharkhead is Scrapyard, not Shipyard. Just an FYI.

Also, an easy way to find Marcone bosses is to head to the Flop in St. Martial and beat up bald dudes in white suits or guys wearing black suits and white hats. Mobs(ters) with those two costumes will always be bosses (consigliere) or underbosses (for the Untouchable badge).

 

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Originally Posted by Silas View Post
Correction: Controllers control and buff/debuff, but only do any real damage after 41. Dominators control and do damage from level 1 onwards.
With Containment, Controllers do decent damage in Outbreak.

The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.

 

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Originally Posted by Teeth View Post
I don't understand what you mean. Are points being awarded for specialization or self-sufficiency?

Blasters are obviously less self-sufficient than Stalkers; they do better damage, but they're made of paper.
That's not correct. Blasters are tied for fourth place on HP and have limited ability to act while mezzed. They have anywhere from limited to significant control capacity (Ice/Ice v. Fire/Fire being the extremes on either side). And they have a buttload of damage.

Quote:
Scrappers really are less self-sufficient than Brutes. Brutes have a lower base damage but the ability to ramp it up to a higher level than Scrappers normally can, but since Scrappers have higher base numbers, they respond better to external buffs. (If you think Scrappers are as self-sufficient as Brutes, imagine trying to use a Scrapper in Granite Armor.)
I agree with Another Fan, in that this is a push. Saying that Scrappers are less self-sufficient than Brutes is laughable. Brutes have much more room both in defense and offense to buff.

IMO, these ATs have so much more self-sufficient than the other ATs it's not even worth discussing which is better, since it's mostly down to marginal difference either way.

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Masterminds are obviously more self-sufficient than Tanks. Tanks do make it easy for other AT's to do their jobs unmolested, so they have their own role to fill.
I disagree. Tankers might be slower, but they are basically invincible solo. Slow and steady wins the race and all.

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Doms and Controllers are both game-breaking death machines, but a Controller still doesn't really hit his full potential without having other players to buff. The Controller is also marginally less self-sufficient in that she may have endurance issues (obviously this varies by secondary) and is likely to be hoist with her own petard (mezzed and then eaten by minions).
You mean like Fire Imps, Jack, Phantasm, etc...

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VEATs are a good force multiplier, but they're also rather self-sufficient, while HEATs need some serious IO work to solo well.
Not true. HEATs are like Tankers IMO, slow until you get to high level, but then they solo just fine. My PB is actually more survivable than my soft-capped Night Widow. Resists and heals do have their place.

The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.

 

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Originally Posted by Dispari View Post
It's all opinion-based. But just to complicate things, I usually compare the ATs like this:

Scrapper - Stalker
Tanker - Brute
Defender - Corruptor
Controller - Mastermind
Blaster - Dominator

But then, the ATs I don't like are Stalker, Tanker, and Defender. I like MMs but don't usually invite them because they're often more solo-focused than I like. I like to have Controllers on the team but not to play them. The ATs I seek first for teaming are Scrappers, Brutes, Blasters, Dominators, Corruptors, and Controllers. Then if I don't have those I can look for the others.

Or, if you prefer:

Stalkers are Scrappers done wrong.
Brutes are Tankers done right.
Corruptors are Defenders done right.
Masterminds are pet Controllers.
Dominators are mini-Blasters with mez.

Overall I like 3 of the hero ATs and 4 of the villain ATs. To personally play, 2 heroes and 4 villains. On a team I would usually seek 3/3. So I give a slight nod to villains as being better ATs in general.
You can certainly have an opinion but that doesn't stop it from being wrong.

If you're comparing the ATs like that, you're doing it wrong. Period.

To say a Stalker is a Scrapper done wrong equal of saying a Scrapper is a Stalker done right. This is not correct!

A Brute is a Tanker done right but a Tanker is a Brute done wrong!? Can you see where this is going?

If you can't flip it and it make sense, then it's the WRONG PERSPECTIVE! The ATs can't be viewed like that![EDIT] For completeness sake, you really can't compare them *at all*. They all have mixed abilities and tactics that don't translate over the AT divide.

 

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The devs once said that they would no longer create either villain or hero specific content. well, with going rogue, adding hero or villain specific data would be adding data to the whole game. take advantage of that.

I'm really hoping that with Ultra Mode the skies and streets of the rogue isles and paragon city wont be so dreary and horrible anymore.

However i'll probably just spend all of my time over in praetoria after going rogue is released because of the landscape of it all.


Ps: Hey devs!!! i18 Going Beautiful. a massive re-vamp of the rogue isles and paragon city without changing any contacts or the layout of the zones. Also adding a few more zones to the rogues isles and making a few others coop would be pretty sweet. (vill side shadow shard!)

 

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Originally Posted by EvilGeko View Post
That's not correct. Blasters are tied for fourth place on HP and have limited ability to act while mezzed. They have anywhere from limited to significant control capacity (Ice/Ice v. Fire/Fire being the extremes on either side). And they have a buttload of damage.
They're still squishier than a Stalker, who has defenses and can ignore mezzers. The lenience in play style from having support on the team is far more obvious to a Blaster than to a Stalker.


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I agree with Another Fan, in that this is a push. Saying that Scrappers are less self-sufficient than Brutes is laughable. Brutes have much more room both in defense and offense to buff.
This is only true when you approach caps, which is a marginal case. A Scrapper with Fortitude gets a larger absolute damage buff than a Brute with Fortitude; on the other hand, a Brute who decides to solo a map while the rest of the team is AFK will be swimming in Fury and yelling SMASH, while the Scrapper is going to wish that the Empath would come back and Fort him again. They'll both win in both cases, but it's not a binary comparison.


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I disagree. Tankers might be slower, but they are basically invincible solo. Slow and steady wins the race and all.
I still prefer "blazing fast and steady."


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You mean like Fire Imps, Jack, Phantasm, etc...
Yes, actually. Jack Frost doesn't benefit nearly as much from Adrenaline Boost as a Scrapper does, Phantasm doesn't benefit from Fort as much as a Blaster does, etc.


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Not true. HEATs are like Tankers IMO, slow until you get to high level, but then they solo just fine. My PB is actually more survivable than my soft-capped Night Widow. Resists and heals do have their place.
I'll give you that one. I don't have any HEATs above 30.


Still, in all cases, I'm not asserting the difference to be absolute--merely present. A Scrapper with Forge gets more of a boost than a Brute, regardless of whether either could solo without it; a Controller who AM's her pets and four other heroes is creating more of an effect than she would by AM'ing only her pets, but a Fire/Psi Dom who sprints into a spawn set for 8 and flattens it doesn't care whether he's solo or on a full ITF. Though the Hero AT's are generally self-sufficient, their relative potential is still more intimately tied to teams than it is for Villains.

Edit: And I don't even notice that CoV is "dirtier." It's hard to tell the difference easily when your graphics settings are bottomed out.

 

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Originally Posted by Fire_Minded View Post
The main reason why the Hero side is so full of people who absolutly need a Tank, or a Empath, are due to a younger crowd, and absent minded players that came from DDO, Ultima Online, Asheron's Call, EQ, and WoW type games.Where you needed that Tanking person up front, and needed that Healing person follwing that Tank, just to get anywhere.
I would say the opposite: if you took a census of those that tend to play one side far more than the other, the younger players are on redside, and the older players are on blueside.

 

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Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
You can certainly have an opinion but that doesn't stop it from being wrong.
Yes it does. Opinions can't be wrong OR right. You can disagree with them, but your opinion isn't right and mine isn't wrong. Opinions are opinions; they can't be wrong or right. If they could be wrong or right, and thus proven to be either one state or another in all instances, they would be facts and not opinions. And "Scrappers are better than Stalkers" will always be an opinion, not a fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

 

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Originally Posted by Teeth View Post
I don't understand what you mean. Are points being awarded for specialization or self-sufficiency?

Blasters are obviously less self-sufficient than Stalkers; they do better damage, but they're made of paper.

Points were awarded for self sufficiency.

Which blaster are you talking about ?? And against what ?

A stalker in general will take out the boss/lt and try to deal with whats left. A blaster takes out everything up to the LT then deals with the bosses.

If anything a blaster has their biggest problems on teams. Tankers that over aggro, buffers that spend their time buffing people that don't need it. Scrappers that aggro the map. All very deadly to a blaster. If anything blasters dying right and left is a sign the team is awful.