CoH, Bots, and RMT
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-01-19 20:22 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Link to announcement in question.
Global @StarGeek
ParagonWiki.com-The original is still the best!
My Hero Merit rolls
Accuracy needed for 95% ToHit spreadsheet
Forum font change stripper for Firefox/Opera/Chrome. No more dealing with poor color choices, weird fonts or microscopic text
Search Wiki Patch notes, add site:ParagonWiki.com inurl:patch_notes to your Google Search
I know devs hate Villains, but why are they getting their parent company to target Masterminds and not other Villain ATs?
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
I don't see the point in bots. I play the game to, well, play the game. I really don't want a bot playing it for me.
I know one thing, the post made me paranoid. I finished reading it, and ran every scan I have. Clean is good.
Types of Swords
My Portfolio
Quote:
This leads to one of the best pieces of MMO design advice I've ever seen:|
Originally Posted by Zyphoid
I don't see the point in bots. I play the game to, well, play the game. I really don't want a bot playing it for me.
|
Widespread use of bots is a sign that you, as a game designer, have made a major mistake. If there is content in your game that is both simple enough for a bot to play, and boring enough that many people will use a bot to play it, you need to re-think things.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zyphoid
I don't see the point in bots. I play the game to, well, play the game. I really don't want a bot playing it for me.
I know one thing, the post made me paranoid. I finished reading it, and ran every scan I have. Clean is good. |
I'm with this guy don't people pay to you know actually play lol why would they want a bot running for them. Though I only read about 1 paragraph of that speech to preacy for my taste.
I loathe bots, and a new MMO lost a subscriber because of botting/RMT. While it looks like they are taking steps now, during the first two weeks, I detected no evidence of any in-game action against bots that I repeatedly reported day after day.
In more competitive games, botting is an easy way to acquire in-game currency, items, and level your character without working at it. If you want the best for your character, it's far easier to bot and go sleep overnight and wake up to wonderful drops. In the particular game I played, ultra-rare drops were announced in broadcast. It disgusted me when AGAHUGA got this awesome weapon I knew for all purposes was beyond my means of ever having.
As for CoH, botting is rather silly. In other games where there is a severe grind where hundreds of player actions only make a fraction of a point of progress, I can understand why players want to bot - because the progression rate makes them incredibly impatient. I don't think it's right, but I can at least understand why. And for those games, I blame the developers for making a grind-fest.
Actually City of Heroes isn't really 'bot friendly' for the very same reasons the game isn't even listed on the 'big name' gold seller sites (notice how it's the "we'll definitely steal your credit card info to buy accounts" small fry that target CoH but never the corporatized big guys?), it's not profitable for them in the slightest when there's that big old gorilla sitting in the corner which they can make a hundred times more money off of.
Even our epicest of loots is gotten through the most mundane of means. Most CoH players are intelligent enough to know that purples are required for high recharge builds and...that's about it (since that's all purples do REALLY well). One single purple drop however can make a player able to almost completely outfit their character in top of the range non-purple IOs.
One purple IO (Ragnarok) bought my Night Widow:
2 complete sets of Mako's bite.
1 complete set of Touch of Death.
1 complete set of Red fortune.
1 complete set of Serendipity.
1 res/def Steadfast IO (which I could have farmed the AE for tickets and rolled on level 10-19 bronze recipes if I didn't "WANT IT NOWZ!").
1 Complete set of Thunderstrike...
...and enough funds to generally be well off for generic IOs for those powers I'm not fussed about IOing up immedieatly. All at the 'I must have it now!" prices, if I'd have been patient I probably could have spent half the money getting it all but...well inf burns a hole in my virtual pocket.
There's very little that's out of reach of the common player that can't be gotten by a little hard work and sheer dumb luck. To RMT sites this is the bane of their existence since there's no 'work' or 'grind' needed, you just play the game, as you do, killing mobs and boom it drops into your lap.
Nobody in CoH is 'poor' Heck i just made 4 million selling my drops and recipes at level 45 in the space of...about two hours...
On the US servers I made 400 million just by using the AE and farming that wall of Romans in a WEEK of work playing 2-3 hours a day...
We even have guides which tell people how to amass large sums of wealth easily with very little play time...which is something the WoW community would never do since their marketeers tend to be as secretive as possible because the competition is so much more vast and numerous.
Now compare that to most fantasy MMOs have massive 'gold sinks', lets take an examples from ye olde World of Warcraft...
Mechano-hog bike and sidecar engineer created mount: Not only do you have to 'grind rep' in order to have access to the plans but a large chunk of the parts needed, unlike most Engineering recipes (which just used materials which were stupidly rare to make their cost something big) can only be bought from NPCs, now when you total up the basic cost of those parts PLUS the already incredibly expensive materials you can farm from the open world it came to around 20,000 gold.
Let me put it this way, a person who doesn't play the market (which takes substantially more time and effort in WoW to make a decent profit than it does in City of Heroes) like myself spent a MONTH worth of grinding specific mobs for high priced drops AND doing repeatable daily quests for like 5-6 hours a day to earn 5,000 gold to earn my epic flying lessons.
Imagine what it takes and how long it takes to earn 20k gold for most people now? Blizzard sit there and make items like this and go "dduuurrr...why do people use RMT sites?! It make no sense!"
Blizzard you stupid fools your bought it on yourself...random bind on equip epics being expensive...well duh...they're RARE just like purple IOs are RARE but most of them are affordable with a little under two weeks casual work (that and they're normally outclassed by epic heroic dungeon loot anyway...most of which only take an hour or so).
You go and create expensive prestige items and wonder why the hell people shortcut the long grind to get them by buying gold from RMT sites? Because you made a novelty item that people want so ridiculously expensive you either had to be a market guru or work your backside off for MONTHS to get it...
People will take shortcuts.
As for the actual question...no...back in WoW I would have probably said yes...but here...even if I could...I honestly don't see the point..
If they didnt exist would i be happy for bots to be in game....No! bots do nothing good for anyone.
Quote:
|
Don’t use the same password for your game account that you use on Internet forums. There have been instances of forums that have had their security compromised and the user names and passwords from their system were then used to try to gain access to game accounts. To prevent the possibility of this happening, ensure that you use different passwords for each forum that you frequent. This can be managed easily through password managers, such as Lastpass or RoboForm. |
The problem I've got is that ^.
It's possible I'm being stupid and have missed something obvious, but I was under the impression that we have no choice but to use the same password for both the game forums and game account...
Warning:
The above post may contain Cynicism, sarcasm and/or pessimism. If you object to the quantities contained, then tough.
Yeah, it's a bit ironic. But what I think GM Luminary is referring to is using the same name and password you use here for other sites.
For example, if you go to the forum of a RMT site and put in your name/password as Canine/123abc, well guess what? That RMTer will try to use Canine/123abc in the PlayNC website or to log into CoH hoping that you use that same name/password here. And it's not just RMT web sites that will do that, any attack site, or site that's been hacked will collect your name/password and they're try to use that combo on other sites.
One would assume that NCSoft, which runs these boards isn't going to use the name/password of the forums to hack the account you have with them.
Of course, the problem is that bulletin board software may have security holes and be cracked much easier than the server logins, thus allowing hackers access to your account.
Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides
It's hard to say if I'd use bots or not if they were approved. I honestly don't see all that much difference between using a bot and setting up an AFK healing or damage badge farm, which I've done many times. It's just a matter of how complex the actions are that you can get your computer to spit out without you there directing it. On the other hand, I already felt uncomfortable setting up those AFK farms, and that was for pure vanity rewards that have no actual impact on gameplay. There'd need to be a community-maintained list of "safe" bots explicitly approved on the forums or somewhere before I'd indulge, I think.
@Eisenzahn
GW2 - Melchior.2135
AIM - Euroclydon23
Email - scorpany@yahoo.com or <sameasmyAIM>@aol.com (for the sheer novelty of an almost 20 year old email address that hasn't been overwhelmed by spambots yet)
Quote:
They are talking about other internet forums since here your game account is your forum account. Given the stupidly high numbers of sites that require you to have a password a lot of people will use the same one for many of them. Now for things where there's nothing at stake (i.e. internet forums) this is fine since you're unlikely to care if someone steals your account to some random internet site. But for anything important (i.e. anything where money is involved) you should have a unique password.|
Originally Posted by Canine
The problem I've got is that ^.
It's possible I'm being stupid and have missed something obvious, but I was under the impression that we have no choice but to use the same password for both the game forums and game account... |
To answer the OP yes I think bots would still be against the rules. Largely for the reason that Katie V stated: poor MMO design. A lot of MMOs (especially older ones but some newer ones to) have an intensive grind which is bottable. In that sort of MMOs the devs would need to ban bots for pretty much the same reasons that they do now. First off players would complain about others getting an unfair advantage due to the use of bots and secondly to reduce server load so that those actually playing have a better experience (and less competition for mining nodes and the like).
Last year EVE implemented a program to help ban a large number of RMTers and other botters. At the time they posted an article discussing the server load before and after the ban, unfortunately I can't find a link but the crux of it was that bots accounted for an extremely high percentage of the server load in relation to the percentage of users online that they actually represented.
Quote:
If you've automated a task in the game so you can pay more attention to other things in the game while playing, you've macroed. If you've automated a task in the game so you no longer have to pay attention to the game at all, you've botted.
|
Originally Posted by Calash
Also, where is the dividing line between bots and macroing repetitive tasks?
|
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
Yes, I'd think they should be against the rules, no matter what. If the game is so boring to you you have to set up an automated routine to continually play it for you so you can do something else - find a different game.
|
Originally Posted by Calash
If RMT did not exist do you, as a MMO player, think bots should still be against the rules. Also, where is the dividing line between bots and macroing repetitive tasks?
|
Quote:
HeroStats| Dont run programs designed by third parties for use with our games. |
City Info Tracker
Mids' Hero Designer
>.>
<.<
I'm a baaaad man!
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Quote:
You'll not those have always been on a "don't tell us if you're using them and we won't bug you about them" basis. As long as they're benign, the powers that be have saw it fit to look the other way, but these things have been and are against the rules nevertheless.
|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
HeroStats
City Info Tracker Mids' Hero Designer >.> <.< I'm a baaaad man! |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
This is kind of a one-sided view of the problem, really. People WILL grind, no matter what you do, and they will always look for the path of least resistance. You could have the world's greatest MMO and someone will still find a way to take all the fun out of it just so he can progress faster. It's not really just about boring content, or even simple and boring. It could be the best content in the world, but if it's simple enough it WILL be farmed and it WILL be made boring. That's why bots are banned, exploits patched up and farming discouraged, as much as that is possible.|
Originally Posted by Katie V
This leads to one of the best pieces of MMO design advice I've ever seen:
Widespread use of bots is a sign that you, as a game designer, have made a major mistake. If there is content in your game that is both simple enough for a bot to play, and boring enough that many people will use a bot to play it, you need to re-think things. |
Personally, I see it as protecting people from themselves.
As far as bots in City of Heroes goes, though, I don't believe they're really relevant for technical reasons. Specifically, the same technical reasons that deny us running attacks and restrict us to teleporting attacks that mimic those. Our terrain is chaos architecture on a very fine-detail level. It's incredibly easy to get hung up on a chair, trapped behind crates, hung op on a torch, walk off a tall platform, get stuck by a low ceiling and any manner of other impediments that a real, thinking human often has trouble navigating around, let alone a bot.
Most traditional MMOs tend to consist of large open areas with a flat terrain, or at least bumpy terrain you can run over. Our game is chock-full of benches, parked cars, street lights, trash cans, fences, walls, pits, shrubs, trees and all manner of other crap that gets in your way. Hell, OUR OWN AI has trouble navigating terrain a lot of the way, and we're talking about writing a user-made AI that'll do better? I have strong doubts about that, superficially since I've seen how limited bots can be. A friend of mine was trying to use something called an L2Walker, a bot for Lineage 2 (his egg to stand on, not my problem), and that thing was just silly. Sometimes it worked right, sometimes it lost its mind, and overall it was unreliable.
Besides, City of Heroes features respawning enemies which repawn only when you move away, so you can't park down in a moor and kill stuff till the sky falls over, because sooner or later you won't see any enemies when you look around. And even then, proper farming happens on missions where enemies don't respawn at all.
I don't see it here.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
AFK farming for redside PvP recipe drops using a MM and a Regen or WP scrapper would be an example of botting.
Which I believe is probably one of the reasons they instituted the mandatory respawn in PvP zones.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
lol@ Game Surveillance Unit; sounds like a TV show.
But seriously; last week I logged onto my main account and saw my very first 50 had 0 days offline and I know it had been at least a month since I last logged him on. I changed the passwords on both accounts immediately.
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
This thread, like the original, needs a shedload of these: 
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
I used to bot in Star Wars Galaxies to craft items while at work. I just didn't have time to do basically:
Click
Click
ClickDragUnClick
Click
ClickDragUnClick
Click
Click
Wait 10 seconds
Repeat
That game did not allow macros of any kind soft coded into the game (Not sure if they had a problem with Macro Keyboards like the g15...Anyways)
I really only have issues where crafting XP is required. If you are required to craft items that won't sell ever JUST so you can get enough XP to craft the sellable items, Im All for AFK macroing/bot'ing yourself to the next step up.
Botting in City of Heroes is really pointless though. The only way you could have botted was to AFK farm PvP IOs. Since that doesn't work as well anymore, there isnt really a point.
EverQuest, now there was some scary botting. A friend of mine was set up with six accounts that all had big networks of macros to make them work together. I think they were even set up to respond to basic questions if you talked to them while he was AFK...
I'm thinking it sounds like a good time to change my password, in any case.
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
Just finished the reading the announcement. To the point and well written, good job with it.
One part did get me thinking however. Quoted below.
If you use third party applications that control your game playwhich is the literal definition of botsyou will lose your account, and nothing you say will get it back. We can detect bots. We have multiple ways of detecting bots. We have banned thousands of accounts and will continue to ban such accounts due to bot usage. Bot usage is one of the key ways that RMT companies use to fund their operations, and removing bots from the game is one of our best attacks against them. The GSU banhammers against bot usage will not stop, and if you use a bot, you will be caught.
This got me a bit curious.
If RMT did not exist do you, as a MMO player, think bots should still be against the rules. Also, where is the dividing line between bots and macroing repetitive tasks?