Would you PVP if PVP worked better?
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2009-12-31 22:18 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Pretty valid point. Some FPS games do a decent job of straddling the line by having unique weaponry.|
Originally Posted by Radium
FPS games for example are easy to get into because you just pick up a gun and start shooting; you can learn to be more careful and pick up tactics on the fly. Bullets don't suddenly stop hurting enemies because someone hit ability D (usually anyway), so you can immediately pick up on your shortcomings and improve. There's none of this "Hah! My power nullifies your entire offensive capabilities for 30 seconds!"
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I do wonder about the percentage of bad apples in the PvP community since while I've been killed a number of times in zone, I haven't really suffered from trash talk. I have been followed and killed but that's par for the course since I didn't have any form of stealth.
It's interesting to think that I13 is proof of concept on why the Cottage Rule shouldn't be broken since in all intents and purposes it "broke" PvP. The well meaning concept of bringing in more players wound up actually losing players and disappointing many who stayed.
I want to say 'Yes,' because it's certainly true that I used to PvP much more often than I have since they changed the system - five or six hours a month compared to zero (I have no interest in it since the new system has been implemented, since I just don't understand it at all and haven't liked what I've seen). But the truth is that I probably wouldn't, at least not any more than that five or six hours a month.
The best experiences I've ever had in this game have been in PvP zones, in fact. But the worst experiences I've ever had in this game have also been in PvP zones. Overall, the bad has outweighed the good. By a lot.
I like the dynamic fights against unpredictable opponents, many of whom could easily wipe the floor with me if I'm not careful. I like to win, of course, but I don't mind losing, especially if the player I'm losing against is nice about it as he's grinding my face into the pixelated dirt. I've met some truly cool people through PvP. I even enjoy losing battles against better players, if they're good sports about it when they win.
I dislike the trash talking, the excuses for losing, the complaining, the constant broadcast drama, and the occasional total jerkwad who also happens to be way, way better than me. These things ruin it for me, though I will be the first to admit that they are inevitable in an anonymous competitive environment like this. It is a failing of mine, not of the people I meet. I just can't seem to thicken my skin enough to keep enjoying PvP when I'm confronted by this.
But worst of all, I dislike playing a character from 1 - 50 (which takes months of casual play for me), lovingly building that character and dominating the PvE content, and finding out that this creation of mine is totally non-functional in PvP just because of how the system works. (Ever try to PvP seriously with a Warshade? Heartbreaking, that.)
Once in a while, I get the urge to PvP. Just to see how it goes. Sometimes, I even do quite well, or at least have a ton of fun. My interest will sustain itself until I have one rage-inducing experience at the hands of another player, which inevitably happens after a week or two of PvPing an hour or so a night.
The Ballad of Iron Percy
I would probably be more inclined to PVP if it were more balanced, yes, but I think the biggest thing that PVP needs right now is something that the devs can't provide through simply coding some new mechanic. It needs a larger population.
I don't think there's much argument in the fact that PVP is better balanced towards teams. If I could simply jump into the zone at any point in time and decide to get on a team for some PVP, then I believe that a lot of the issues would be minimized. The problem as I see it is the fact that if you jump into most PVP zones without having anything planned, you'll find maybe 1 other player on your side, and 4 on the other. Sure, you might be able to get both sides teamed up, but then your side will get handily trounced by the other.
On the other hand, if you could always count on having at least one full team on each side active, then at least if you wanted to do some pick-up PVP, you could probably get in on it.
My best PVP experience was when they arranged for beta testing the lower level PVP zones. A friend and I went into Bloody Bay, and it was unadulterated chaos. There were literally hundreds of people in the zone, and lag was incredible, but there was no difficulty finding a fight. It was crazy, and it was crazy fun. If there were some way to bring that back, I would be on it in less than a heartbeat.
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I would PvP if the guys I PvP with didn't say "Go back to your server" when I engage them.
Or "gtfo" what does gtfo means anyway ?
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I dont get this statement much less the bolded part.| And finally, they ARE in a PvP zone, as are you. Asking them to stop what they're doing so you can abuse the game's rewards is insulting to both them and the devs that made the zones. |
I understand I am at risk to being attacked in a pvp zone. Especially if I am going after shivans. What I don't understand is why I am abuseing game rewards that the dev's put in place for me to use in a pvp zone and how in any way that is insulting to anyone because I want to use them.
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| Originally by Arcanaville: Everything in Praetoria was designed during a drinking binge in which the devs temporarily forgot the rules. |
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Next time my opponents in PvE stop treating me with respect I'll let you know. |
Originally Posted by Antigonus
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Bad attitudes are everywhere. Yes they are easier to ignore in PvE, but that's not the point. The point is that maybe, just maybe, you might need to check the person in the mirror when you think there's an attitude problem. |
More seriously, a jerk in PvE can, at most, ruin one teaming experience, and there are ways to deal with him - convince the leader to kick him, quit and reform the team without him, or just go find another team or solo. There are very few such options to deal with jerks in PvP.
Moreover, the nature of the problem caused is different. Imagine if a hostile player could suddenly 'take over' all of the NPCs in a PvE mission and get them to jump you all at once, or buff them into the stratosphere, or simply run away so that you can't complete the mission. What are your options in that case? Most player characters aren't designed to solo an entire mission's worth of NPCs simultaneously, or track down a mission's worth of fleeing NPCs, so...?
In PvE you can get around a jerk and continue PvEing, because the jerks are separate from the content. In PvP the jerks *are* the content, so there's not nearly as much you can do about it.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
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If it better integrated (and made to feel like) the PvE game, so you didn't need special builds, IOs, etc., I'd probably enjoy it here and there... so Yes.
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Personally I'm of the opinion that the very nature of an MMO means that MMO PvP is something that will never interest me. The problem is one of power levels. In non-MMO games a new player can jump in and his basic power level is basically identical to a veterans (there are a few exceptions like the unlockable weapons in Team Fortress 2 but they tend to be minor and a person without them is still at about the same power level). Obviously his skills will be worse but his basic power level is equivalent to the existing player so he can focus entirely on developing his skills.|
Originally Posted by Prof_Backfire
But many, including me, will gladly fight other players in games like Counter-strike, Team Fortress 2, Mario Kart, Bomerman, Chess, etc. It's not that we don't like PVP- it's that we don't like how this game handles it.
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In an MMO that is not going to be the case. A potential PvPer starts at a large power disadvantage. First off he has to level a character up to a particular level (normally the max) then he has to invest time and effort in obtaining a set of entry level PvP gear to go along with it. This means that there is a significant amount of time investment required before he can start working on his skills.
There are things an MMO can do to ameliorate this but they rarely seem to be successful. For example, WoW introduced low level battlegrounds to give somewhere for lower level characters to practice PvP. However from what I've heard they've basically been taken over by experienced PvPers playing twinks which completely defeats the purpose. The only way an MMO could truly have the even playing field a non-MMO offers is to allow people to make a PvP-only character (or an alternate build for an existing character) that is automatically at the desired level and has full access to whatever PvP gear the player wants. I think Guild Wars does something like this but most MMOs seem disinclined to do so.
If an MMO introduced a system like this (and I liked the MMO anyway) I'd be tempted to PvP but until that my MMO playing will be purely PvE and I'll stick to playing TF2 (very poorly) when I want to play against other people. (ok, this last is a lie, I do PvP occasionally in MMOs when I'm bored but I never take it seriously).
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Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
Next time my opponents in PvE stop treating me with respect I'll let you know.
More seriously, a jerk in PvE can, at most, ruin one teaming experience, and there are ways to deal with him - convince the leader to kick him, quit and reform the team without him, or just go find another team or solo. There are very few such options to deal with jerks in PvP. Moreover, the nature of the problem caused is different. Imagine if a hostile player could suddenly 'take over' all of the NPCs in a PvE mission and get them to jump you all at once, or buff them into the stratosphere, or simply run away so that you can't complete the mission. What are your options in that case? Most player characters aren't designed to solo an entire mission's worth of NPCs simultaneously, or track down a mission's worth of fleeing NPCs, so...? In PvE you can get around a jerk and continue PvEing, because the jerks are separate from the content. In PvP the jerks *are* the content, so there's not nearly as much you can do about it. |
As has been said before, it's a matter of perception. I've been PvPing since the arenas went live in issue 4. I've seen all manner of PvPers on 3 different servers, 4 if we count the test server. I know the jerks exist and they can be annoying. However, nothing could possibly convince me that they are as prevalent as you would make them out to be. They are not, as you say, the content. You are treating the minority as the whole, and that was my point. After 5 years in this game I have seen far more abusive language and griefing tactics from PvE play than I ever have in PvP. The fact of the matter is that the bad PvPers are just as easily dealt with as the bad PvErs are, just the methods are different. You can just as easily get around a jerk in PvP and continue playing. A jerk on ignore isn't doing anything different in PvP than a non-jerk. The rules of engagement are the same whether or not a person is being ignored. There is no griefing in PvP as far as tactics go outside of TPing a person into the geometry in manner that the game prohibits.
If you are constantly being targeted, it will generally be for one of three reasons:
1) You are the biggest threat on the board and they need to go through you to deal with everybody else (i.e. healers/buffers). If this is the case, take it as a compliment.
2) You are considered inexperienced enough that you are an easy target. Nothing wrong with this. Everybody is new at some point. Take it as a learning experience. There is no better way to learn evasive manuevers than to be everybodys target of choice. I usually take any new characters I make into PvP zones as soon as possible with as few enhancements as possible so that I can first learn how my characters will work at their weakest and what I need to do to survive with that character before I start worrying about getting kills.
3) You're the only one in the zone. It happens more often than it used to with the new rules ( gg devs ). Just zone out and try again later. Or do what I do and sit in the base where they can see you but not attack and just talk. Tell a few jokes and drone somebody just to watch them scream about it
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Actually it depends on the MMO. For example, Warhammer Online breaks PVP into "tiers" of 10 levels each, and higher levels could not participate in lower tiers at all (well almost: they could, but they'd be changed into a chicken with 1 HP and able to peck for 1 point of damage). |
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
In an MMO that is not going to be the case. A potential PvPer starts at a large power disadvantage. First off he has to level a character up to a particular level (normally the max) then he has to invest time and effort in obtaining a set of entry level PvP gear to go along with it. This means that there is a significant amount of time investment required before he can start working on his skills.
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Also, the PVP is team based (called RVR or Realm vs Realm). You will be teaming up and when engaging. You can, in WAR, jump into RVR around level 2 until the endgame and be able to compete. Whenever I made a new character, as soon as I finished the intro missions to get my basic gear, I'd be queing up for RVR scenarios. In that game you can gain RVR levels in addition to your PVE levels, so you can be a high level PVP player even at a lower level within your tier.
Not all MMOs treat PVP like something you need to do as a second job to be any good at. WAR did some things wrong, but RVR/PVP they got pretty darn spot on. They turned my Wife into a bloodthirsty PVPer and she normally HATES PVP in most games. It can be done!
I got a chance to play Global Agenda at DragonCON and that one is more like a shooter than an MMO in many ways. I didn't get to see entry-level PVP, but from the look of it, team work is more important than individual equipment choices. Plus the ability to respec your character On The Fly means you can adapt to an unpredictable enemy instantly!
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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I'm not intending to imply that this sort of thing happens all the time, if I gave that impression I apologize for my imprecision. I know that this sort of behavior is in the minority. The problem is, even in the minority it's still enough to poison the experience. They don't come along every time, and they're not in the majority even when they're there. But when they do show up it's time to leave as I know I'm not going to be having any more fun while they're there, and that's enough to leave a bad taste in my mouth.|
Originally Posted by Antigonus
As has been said before, it's a matter of perception. I've been PvPing since the arenas went live in issue 4. I've seen all manner of PvPers on 3 different servers, 4 if we count the test server. I know the jerks exist and they can be annoying. However, nothing could possibly convince me that they are as prevalent as you would make them out to be. They are not, as you say, the content. You are treating the minority as the whole, and that was my point.
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| A jerk on ignore isn't doing anything different in PvP than a non-jerk. There is no griefing in PvP as far as tactics go outside of TPing a person into the geometry in manner that the game prohibits. |
I define griefing as 'intentionally and knowingly setting out to ruin another player's fun', within reasonable limits on 'fun' and the caveat that one player's fun shouldn't impede another's. And within that definition, there lies a problem with respect to PvP - because when you have a PvPer out for a fight and a PvEer who doesn't want to fight, or a PvPer looking solely for a kill and two other PvPers wanting to duel, for example, someone's going to have their fun impeded no matter who gets their way. My own personal thought is that in such a case both sides need to compromise, not just the PvEers, duelists, or whoever. If someone is not willing to fight, what point is there in following them around and killing them repeatedly? If two players wish to fight 1 on 1, why is there some sort of moral imperative to break them up?
Conversely, of course, it works the other way, and I am equally unimpressed with PvEers and duelists who believe that they should be utterly inviolate. PvEers do not get to rage if they are dropped once or twice on their way to a badge, and duelists do not get to complain about having to move out of the center of the zone to get out of the way, or having the occasional duel crashed. But I do not think it is unreasonable to hope that they would not be repeatedly interrupted by the same player(s), over and over, such that they cannot complete their activities at all.
And, of course, this is supposing that both sides are sincere in their motivations, because I have seen another answer to this question:
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| If you are constantly being targeted, it will generally be for one of three reasons: |
I have witnessed this from both sides of the aggressor/victim divide. Some just get their jollies from denying other players enjoyment. Their actions are legal as far as the game rules are concerned, but I still define them as griefing. In my book, you play hard, but play fair and respect the other player's desire to have fun as well as yours.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
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The question though becomes how well will that work long term once the experienced players have gotten bored with top level PvP? In general that sort of thing works best when all (or at least the vast majority) of the characters competing are characters in the process of being leveled up and are therefore at similar gear and player skill levels as well as character levels. WoW has a similar system but from what I've heard the lower level tiers are completely dominated by twinks that have XP turned off and the very best gear available for that level (as well as being Engineers for easy access to explosives and headgear). In most games if you freeze a character at a particular level and spend time optimizing their build as well as using your higher level characters to help them get the best gear you can generally make a character that is significantly better than a character with the basic leveling gear.
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Originally Posted by Smurch
Actually it depends on the MMO. For example, Warhammer Online breaks PVP into "tiers" of 10 levels each, and higher levels could not participate in lower tiers at all (well almost: they could, but they'd be changed into a chicken with 1 HP and able to peck for 1 point of damage).
Also, the PVP is team based (called RVR or Realm vs Realm). You will be teaming up and when engaging. You can, in WAR, jump into RVR around level 2 until the endgame and be able to compete. Whenever I made a new character, as soon as I finished the intro missions to get my basic gear, I'd be queing up for RVR scenarios. In that game you can gain RVR levels in addition to your PVE levels, so you can be a high level PVP player even at a lower level within your tier. |
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You know, when you put someone on your ignore list in the game, it should work that when in PvP, should they be there and try to attack you, none of their attacks should either interrupt you or do any damage. It would be as if you had the world's most powerful personal force field that only acted against them. The word 'ignored' should float up above your head for each attack they attempted.|
Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
Jerks in PvP are fully capable of, and in most cases seem to enjoy the full support of the community in, interfering in whatever fun you were trying to have. A certain vocal faction of the community has decreed that they are the sole arbiters of what is acceptable, and unlike in PvE they are able to punt you out if you don't agree with them. When you add that to random idiots who you are actually forced to interact with instead of being able to avoid them as in PvE, it adds up to an experience which just isn't fun.
In short, the problem is that in PvP, ignoring the jerks doesn't work. |
Of course, to be far, they ought to be an invalid target then so you can't attack them!
The main reason I don't like PvP is it is boring. I have tried PvP in arena maps and - briefly - in the PvP zones. Beating (or being beaten by) another player just isn't a thrill. Even worse, PvP play is normally a matter of one carefully considered, relatively irresistable technique being used successfully (hold, attack from range, tp foe, slow, attack en masse, or whatever).
I prefer PvE because when it's done right it has more game strategy going on. I'm not talking about farming, which is also boring. I mean working with a team, trying to accomplish an objective with various constraints or complications (ticking clock; travel; if you split up, who goes with whom; stealthing; finding glowies; triggering ambushes; etc.) IN ADDITION to the basic mechanism of combat. It also helps if there is some randomness so players must cope with the unexpected, as opposed to the cut-and-dried procedural that is expected in, say, a Hami raid.
This is why I said that if you take PvE scenarios and adapt them for PvP play, they might make PvP more appealing.
In other words, add PvP to an already successful mission format as a supplementary challenge factor, and not as the main factor.
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The post you quoted was not directed at you, but someone who was not willing to accept the risk of being attacked, and wanted the reward of a Shivan anyway.|
Originally Posted by Dragon_King
I dont get this statement much less the bolded part.
I understand I am at risk to being attacked in a pvp zone. Especially if I am going after shivans. What I don't understand is why I am abuseing game rewards that the dev's put in place for me to use in a pvp zone and how in any way that is insulting to anyone because I want to use them. |
A PvE'er going into a PvP zone to get a Shivan in itself is fine. You are willing to accept the risk of being attacked, so you are not "abusing game rewards". Demanding that the PvP'ers in the zone not attack you while you get your Shivan, however, is.
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My problem with PVP in this game is that it doesn't feel "super" to me in the slightest.
My chars, especially at high levels can clear out office buildings full of bad guys. They can mow down super powered mages, high tech robots, werewolves, mafia men, lowlife thugs and gangsters, unholy monsters and highly trained para military soldiers. They can do it in large numbers and with style. It's why I play the game, I feel like I'm playing a super hero.
PVP feels so anti-super it's not even fun. To me it should be the apex of the game, one Human played Super vs Another. It should be Spiderman Vs. Doctor Octopus. Superman VS Darkseid. It should be a knock down, drag out fight with holes in buildings and destroyed property in it's wake.
Even my strongest characters seem to die within 3 or 4 hits. I can't run away from a battle where I'm over matched because inevitably some NPC critter will shoot me once and make me fly at something like 3 miles per hour. Even the best of fights don't seem to last that wrong. (Though admittedly I have little experience in PVP.)
Can may chars be made to be stronger? I am sure they could. I just don't like the idea of having to completely rebuild and relearn my hero to fight in PVP, and even then it doesn't seem like most of the fights feel nearly as epic or super as they should.
Also, my experience with the PVP community in this game hasn't really left me wanting more. Now I don't mean any dis-respect, and I am sure many of the PVPers are nice folks, but in my admittedly very limited attempts at PVP, I can't say it was remotely fun or pleasant. PVP in this game seems to occur at a hyper competitive level I'm not interested in.
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It is also understood that certain areas in real life should not be traversed after dark. However, what happens if your mother (or another woman you care about) has car trouble in such a place and, not having a cell phone, has to get out of the car to find a pay phone? Is she then somehow responsible for any crimes perpetrated against her? |
Originally Posted by Reiraku
Why do you take offense to people using the zone as intended? It's part of the understood risk of those zones that you can and will be attacked by other players.
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| If you're worried about an 8 person team attacking you, get a team of your own for protection. |
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| If you don't want to get killed by running past an enemy, don't run near them. |
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| There are a dozen other zones to get XP in, why are you doing so in a place with a lower return and higher risk? |
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| Don't rest in an open zone, hit the base for that. |
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| And finally, they ARE in a PvP zone, as are you. Asking them to stop what they're doing so you can abuse the game's rewards is insulting to both them and the devs that made the zones. |
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Originally Posted by Amerikatt
It is also understood that certain areas in real life should not be traversed after dark. However, what happens if your mother (or another woman you care about) has car trouble in such a place and, not having a cell phone, has to get out of the car to find a pay phone? Is she then somehow responsible for any crimes perpetrated against her?
Next PuG I'm in, I'll just say, "I want to get the exploration badges from (name of PvP zone), so how about the 7 of you go along with me and put yourselves at risk? Reiraku said it was okay". I'm sure that would go over *very* well. How am I suppose to "avoid" PvPer #2 when he's standing behind me (invis'd) and smites me when I'm trying to run away from PvPer #1's onslaught? I'm *not* looking for XP in a PvP zone. Give me *some* credit! I've gotten attacked by NPCs who were near the exploration badge. Trying to run away from them has gotten me beaten up from behind while the PvPers beat me up when I turn around. Easier said than done! My character's HP gauge has been dropped so low that I can't even see the red! Am I suppose to risk a one-shot for *you* so that *you* can claim that you bested me because of your 133t sk111z? I look around to make sure I don't see anyone, *then* I rest. Of course, if you're invis'd, then it's harder for me to see you. Right?! Asking them to cease their unwarranted and unprovoked attacks is somehow wrong? Interesting supposition ... as is your assumption that you *know* what the Devs and other players are thinking. I also find it interesting that you -- who do not know me in-game or out-of-game -- would make the assertion that I'm "abus[ing] the game's rewards". Please explain that to me, because it sounds like you're saying that you don't want me to somehow get a PvP IO recipe and sell it to a vendor for hundreds of influence when you can flip it a few times at Wentworth's and get billions for it. That's it, isn't it?! |
I'm not even going to take the time to comment on your individual comments. Your arguments here are so far beyond the reasonable that I have to believe you are just trolling. I mean come on, comparing getting badges in a PvP zone to having your mothers car break down in a bad neighborhood? Really? That is a valid comparison to you? I'm sorry and I really mean no personal offense here, but you clearly do not have the personality type to be anywhere near a PvP zone, and we would thank you to stay away. Sadly, it is people like you that have ruined PvP in this game, not the PvPers.
AmeriKatt, it's ok not to like PvP, or to dislike COH's particular type of PvP. I respect anyone's decision not to engage in PvP or their stated distate for it. But I'm sorry that I just can't feel sympathy for someone who goes into a PvP zone and expects not to have to engage in PvP.
If you dislike PvP, don't go into the zones or the arena and you will never be burdened by it. But if you decide that you "need" to have a certain badge or one of the temp powers only available in a PvP area then you consent to be attacked by being in the area. It's stated very clearly in red letters by the zone contact.
Alternatively, you can spend a few inf. and buy yourself a temporary phase power. Use the countdown timer to run in (you cannot be attacked during the countdown), and use phase at the first sign of an attack. I would also pop a yellow inspiration periodically (unless you have some +perception from a power or friendly buff), so that you are more likely to see an enemy before they attack. You should have more than enough time between the countdown and the phase power to get any exploration badge.
If you are trying to get defeat badges, then I forsee you having continued problems.
Oh, and one other thing. There are badges one can only obtain by gaining enough reputation via PvP kills. What makes you getting your badge more important that a PvPer getting one of the reputation badges?
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The comparison may be a bit extreme, but it's to illustrate the mindset I've encountered with the "I *thought* it was a PvP zone" argument. Just because it's a *known* high-crime area does not give the criminals the right to victimize people, just as I don't see it being right to be ganked in a PvP zone. An extreme comparison, perhaps, but it harkens back to the old "she was asking for it" argument.|
Originally Posted by Antigonus
I mean come on, comparing getting badges in a PvP zone to having your mothers car break down in a bad neighborhood?
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| I'm sorry and I really mean no personal offense here, but you clearly do not have the personality type to be anywhere near a PvP zone |
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| Sadly, it is people like you that have ruined PvP in this game, not the PvPers. |
Too bad a window doesn't appear onscreen asking us whether we want to engage in PvP. Consentual PvP would allow all parties to be prepared, and would reflect skill rather than opportunism.
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Originally Posted by Bionic Flea
Oh, and one other thing. There are badges one can only obtain by gaining enough reputation via PvP kills. What makes you getting your badge more important that a PvPer getting one of the reputation badges?
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Running with this wonderful analogy you've made, I have to assume that going into that bad neighborhood was what my mother wanted and that there was something/someone she needed to get.|
Originally Posted by Amerikatt
It is also understood that certain areas in real life should not be traversed after dark. However, what happens if your mother (or another woman you care about) has car trouble in such a place and, not having a cell phone, has to get out of the car to find a pay phone? Is she then somehow responsible for any crimes perpetrated against her?
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This is not a case of, "Oops, I accidentally ended up in Mogadishu," or, "I told my driver not to stop!" This is, "I want what's over in that tiger's cage. I'm going in to get it."
You know it's a bad place. You know they attack anyone. And you go in anyway. At that point, yes, I put a lot of the responsibility on your head for that.
Could the PvPers be "nice" about it? Yeah, sure.
Do they have to? Nope.
Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
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Now there's a WOPR if I ever heard one |
Originally Posted by Soul Train
That's my rationale for avoiding PvP as well.
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"A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of Chess?" |
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Since attacking another player in a PvP zone isn't a crime, your counterpoint serves no function.|
Originally Posted by Amerikatt
It is also understood that certain areas in real life should not be traversed after dark. However, what happens if your mother (or another woman you care about) has car trouble in such a place and, not having a cell phone, has to get out of the car to find a pay phone? Is she then somehow responsible for any crimes perpetrated against her?
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It would be more equivalent to going to a war zone and telling the members of the opposing army that "I really don't want to fight you, I just want to go kill these guys over here" while wearing the outfit of the army that they're fighting against.
Try that and see how well it goes over.
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Originally Posted by Amerikatt
Next PuG I'm in, I'll just say, "I want to get the exploration badges from (name of PvP zone), so how about the 7 of you go along with me and put yourselves at risk? Reiraku said it was okay". I'm sure that would go over *very* well.
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I've gotten Raider on my first entry to Siren's Call - when it was needed for Born in Battle prior to the changes - on at least 3 characters (I don't remember the exact count) without a single bounty being presented. That's 5 hours with absolutely 0 enemies in the zone: the bounty for them would have shown up if there had been anyone.
Even when a lot of people are in the zone you can still get them, you just have to actually think a little bit about how you're going to get there. Think of it like trying to get Unabashed during a Rikti raid: would you expect the Rikti to stop attacking you so that you can get your badge, or do you just drop in on the badge and get out if you're not going to participate in the raid?
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Originally Posted by Amerikatt
I'm *not* looking for XP in a PvP zone. Give me *some* credit! I've gotten attacked by NPCs who were near the exploration badge. Trying to run away from them has gotten me beaten up from behind while the PvPers beat me up when I turn around.
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Originally Posted by Amerikatt
Easier said than done! My character's HP gauge has been dropped so low that I can't even see the red! Am I suppose to risk a one-shot for *you* so that *you* can claim that you bested me because of your 133t sk111z? I look around to make sure I don't see anyone, *then* I rest. Of course, if you're invis'd, then it's harder for me to see you. Right?!
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Originally Posted by Amerikatt
Asking them to cease their unwarranted and unprovoked attacks is somehow wrong?
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Also, your suggestion earlier in the thread about "hardcore" mode and how it would reduce ganking was rather ignorant as well - if anything it would create more, since after investing effort into the character people would be less willing to risk it unless they were assured of overwhelming support. Would you attempt to solo a TF that deleted your character if you didn't succeed, or would you load your team up six ways to Sunday so that you were assured of success?
As for the premise of the thread as a whole - I felt that pre-i13 PvP was more enjoyable and even then was a casual PvPer at best. I never participated in the "trash talk", and if it got out of hand - on either side - I'd simply leave. For the most part, the PvPers that I ran into were polite, helpful, and fun; most of the trash talking I saw was personal teasing back and forth between them, with little harshness behind it. Yes, there were jerks, but for the most part I was more apt to turn off broadcast in Atlas Park than Siren's Call or Recluse's Victory. The PvP community as a whole isn't the problem as much as the non-PvPers perception of the community and exaggeration of instances by people seeking sympathy for having to deal with "those ebil pvpers"... after entering a PvP zone.
And for those who say that they can ruin the fun even while on ignore... that's true. But you can also do something about it. As much as I despise tele-droning (speaking of no skill needed and one-shotting people), it works rather well for getting someone that refuses to leave you alone to do so. You could also attack them back, or if those aren't viable options for you then just leave the zone and do something else for a while. After all, if you didn't want to PvP then you were definately in the wrong zone, and if you want to PvP without dealing with the jerks you can head to the arena.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Absolutely. I had to be pried out of PvP in WAR to PvE, unless I was only going to be on for a half an hour or less. But I don't think that the problem in this game is primarily balance related, nor even that you have to learn new roles for your powers. It's two-fold, in my opinion:
1) Hit and run just isn't fun. You get someone down to a quarter health, and then 30 seconds later they're a quarter mile away and have broken aggro. But even this could be fixed if ...
2) There's nothing to fight for. They can't let us gain XP in PvP until they solve the problem of people taking turns killing each other without fighting back. There's no reward for winning at the only territory-control game. You can't point to anything other than your score (on a scoreboard that nobody ever sees) and say "I accomplished that" or (more importantly) "we accomplished that." It's all just completely pointless. So people go level up another character in PvE instead, where they can see their rewards and show off what they've achieved.
I can't tell you how glad I am that I didn't just throw up my arms and stop playing the first time I encountered a jerk in PvE. I still remember getting booted from a team because my Rad Troller wasn't a good enough "healer". I would hate to think that with your attitude, that would have been the last time I ever played the game.
Bad attitudes are everywhere. Yes they are easier to ignore in PvE, but that's not the point. The point is that maybe, just maybe, you might need to check the person in the mirror when you think there's an attitude problem.