Would you PVP if PVP worked better?
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2009-12-31 22:18 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I would be happy if they just... had PvP in the arena's... and changed the PvP zones into FLAGGED pvp zones... I think it would be cool to watch PvP while I bumble through the zones doing new content...
I would be flagged NO PVP on all my alts all the time, but I would go in there to do PvE content.
Quote:
Yes, actually. What i would like to see is something that's more of compromise between the original PvP mechanics and the current system. Recently i've had a fair bit of fun in PvP, but it was silly, casual scrums with a bunch of friends. i even got a Gladiator's Net recipe and someone else got a Gladiator's Javelin recipe. We sold them and then split the proceeds with everyone who played in the match. Neither recipe was one of the uber-demand recipes, but even split ten ways everyone got a nice chunk of inf. |
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
This brings up an interesting, related question:
Would you (the collective you) want the devs here to take the time and resources to change PvP IF they could make it more to your personal liking? |
Quote:
|
And a corollary... If you want Base Raiding/the Cathedral of Pain, what should be different this time around? |
Base raids were okay, but tended to be hideously laggy. i'm not really sure how i would like base raids under the current PvP system, but i'd be happy to give them a shot if/when they return.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
I think PVP in this game is a lost cause, honestly. Even if they managed to perfectly revamp it, the stigma associated with it and the player attitude is so anti-PVP that not many people would really care.
I started this thread thinking along the lines of other MMOs that do a better job of integrating PVP, but I remember the compare and contrast rule.
Quote:
My definition of ganking was formed many years ago; it's the only definition I knew, and the only definition anyone I heard use it meant. My definition applies to both single players or groups. If someone was 'ganking' they (or their group) were killing lowbies or killing those that had no defense, or were using (legitimate or not) tactics to make it so they could kill without any, or with very little, repercussion (i.e., one-hit-kill snipers, where you never see what killed you). |
Originally Posted by Ignicity
I'm really not sure where you got your definition of "ganking" from. I disagree with it entirely. My understanding of a "gank" is very much along the same lines as the urbandictionary definition listed below:
Gank: When a group of people kill a single opponent in an MMORPG. Taken to abbreviate a "gang kill". Now, if you have a problem with a gang kill in a pvp game based around teaming, I think you might be playing the wrong "pvp" game. Perhaps Chess or Backgammon is more your style. just saying |
Mind you, I'm not saying your definition is incorrect in the least, just that I had never seen that 'gang kill' corollary until now. I had absolutely no idea the 'many vs. one' definition had removed any chance of it also applying to individuals. Words can have multiple meanings, after all. The definition I gave is the one I have long been accustomed to, which is why I gave it. I will say, however, that your 'chess or backgammon' comment was completely ridiculous, and has absolutely no bearing in response to my post.
Quote:
This post more or less sums up my feelings on PvP in City Of *.
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
No. It's not a question of how it works, but rather of what kind of game it is in. RPGs, by and large, rely on preparation. They rely on having the right build, on having the right gear, on knowing the right tactics and basically on being prepared for what you are about to face. If you are prepared, you win. If you are not prepared, you go back and prepare so more. There is a VERY narrow margin of combat experience where you are NOT prepared, but you can still muscle through on the weight of sheer grit or blinding brilliance, but for the majority of the game, outcome is decided before battle even starts. And for a single-player game, that's just fine. I'm prepared to deal with my enemies and I expect them to fall before me. The AI doesn't hold grudges, and the game is designed to let me win if I push the right buttons. I don't mind, and indeed rather enjoy having the experience tailored to let me win.
Fighting against other players is a whole different kettle of fish entirely, an expression which I'm sure will make a native speaker somewhere put a reward on my head. When I fight against other people, I like for both of us to be as equal in terms of preparation as the game will possibly allow, such that the actual fight comes down to personal skill, not cheese. If someone is prepared and has a marked advantage over me, then the fight isn't going to be a lot of fun for me. Even if I win, I will still grumble, because I'm not in it to win it, I'm in it for a fun fight, which cannot happen with a handicap. If I'm prepared so that my opponent is at a severe disadvantage, then I'm still not having fun, partly because I can imagine how much it sucks for him, partly because I want a fun battle, not just to dominate. This doesn't have to mean that everyone is the SAME, but merely that everyone is given a character who is culminatively equally good. This is where balance comes in, but in an RPG, all builds will never be equally good. For that reason alone, it's a lost concept. |
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Ignicity
I'm really not sure where you got your definition of "ganking" from. I disagree with it entirely. My understanding of a "gank" is very much along the same lines as the urbandictionary definition listed below:
Quote:
|
This is City of Heroes. My tank is a gang all by himself.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Quote:
hmm, i don't think pvp will ever be to my liking, but i would like to see them at least return it to where it was so the few that did like it could play it. i'd even get behind a system that matched up teams in the zones for something like the wow battlegrounds(as i understand them, never pvp'd in wow). but beyond that, im not sure that too many things they try would actually make pvpers happy, so run the clock back to issue 12 and cut your losses at this point.
|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
This brings up an interesting, related question:
Would you (the collective you) want the devs here to take the time and resources to change PvP IF they could make it more to your personal liking? And a corollary... If you want Base Raiding/the Cathedral of Pain, what should be different this time around? |
Quote:
You probably wouldn't like how that would work out in practice. Best case you would get groups of friends taking a dive for each other and alternating, worst case you would get the opposition planting people on your team to take a dive.
|
Originally Posted by Dawnslayer
If there was a point to PVP i'd do it.
Say a one time event where heroes had to protect something/villains had to destroy it. STORY BASED. Then next issue a different event heroes and villains could partake in, all with their own special but not gamebreaking awards, like costume pieces. And the next event went off of if heroes won more often/villains won more often. Yeah, i'd PVP if there was something like that. That is to say, a point. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fury Flechette
Completely agree with this. I think the devs stumbled onto the right formula (quite by accident) but never followed through. I remember at one point there were 12 or 13 full RV instances on Test. Why did it work so well? My opinion:
* Instant level to 40 - no grinding PvE to get to a PvP level * SOs - build didn't come down to "gear" * An opportunity to try a whole bunch of different builds without guessing whether or not it would be viable or not I'd be curious to see how popular something like this would be if they brought it back. |
Well there is a big thread on the market forum where the PvP community in no uncertain terms lays out they like having better gear than the other guy and using it to bash em, don't expect it to go over well with them.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
|
MPBT and Airwarrior ftw.
Quote:
| The learning curve was higher back then! I wonder if that equated to more intelligent opponents who were not so prone to ganking? |
$8/hr to play but loads of fun just the same.
Quote:
The community as a whole, or are you using the personal preferences of a minor fraction of the community to speak for them all?
|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Well there is a big thread on the market forum where the PvP community in no uncertain terms lays out they like having better gear than the other guy and using it to bash em, don't expect it to go over well with them.
|
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Reiraku
The community as a whole, or are you using the personal preferences of a minor fraction of the community to speak for them all?
|
Its really hard to summarize any community as a whole, especially when that community has the potential to contain people with multiple personalities ;-) But,The vitriol over the idea that everyone should have a third pvp build only for use in pvp zones, that could be built out however they wanted using any available IOs was intense. There was no mistaking where they were coming from. The funny thing was there even seemed to be pve'ers who felt making a great build was a needed form of one upsmanship for them and this would diminish it.
So yes, I would go with the bulk of the community felt that way and you can take it as evidence that some people can't be happy unless they know others are unhappy.
Quote:
How does everyone having equal access to the same IO's for use in PvP translate as a desire to having better gear than another guy just to make them unhappy? That's a pretty huge leap of logic.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Its really hard to summarize any community as a whole, especially when that community has the potential to contain people with multiple personalities ;-) But,The vitriol over the idea that everyone should have a third pvp build only for use in pvp zones, that could be built out however they wanted using any available IOs was intense. There was no mistaking where they were coming from. The funny thing was there even seemed to be pve'ers who felt making a great build was a needed form of one upsmanship for them and this would diminish it.
So yes, I would go with the bulk of the community felt that way and you can take it as evidence that some people can't be happy unless they know others are unhappy. |
Why not at least modify your statement as a more accurate "some members of the PvP community would like..." rather than using an inaccurate wide brush? It might be a bit misleading, but at least it would be better than a generalization.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
Quote:
A certain person who's name shall remain unsaid has essentially said "Stoopit PvE'ers shouldn't buy up PvP recipies because the PvP'ers need them!"|
Originally Posted by Reiraku
How does everyone having equal access to the same IO's for use in PvP translate as a desire to having better gear than another guy just to make them unhappy? That's a pretty huge leap of logic.
|
They also talked about "Korean RMT'ers", how price caps on the market would "fix" the economy, etc.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Quote:
It still doesn't equate to what A_F had said. The connection just isn't there, let alone as a voice of the whole (or even majority) of the PvP community.
|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
A certain person who's name shall remain unsaid has essentially said "Stoopit PvE'ers shouldn't buy up PvP recipies because the PvP'ers need them!"
They also talked about "Korean RMT'ers", how price caps on the market would "fix" the economy, etc. |
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
Quote:
Thing is, unless you can truthfully purport to speak for "the majority" or "the whole" of the PvP community, the actions and words of brain-dead douchebags like the aforementioned nameless one are what will continue to be foremost in the minds of non-PvP'ers being groomed to participate in PvP.|
Originally Posted by Reiraku
It still doesn't equate to what A_F had said. The connection just isn't there, let alone as a voice of the whole (or even majority) of the PvP community.
|
Again, the majority of the problems with PvP aren't technical. They're social.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Quote:
While the negative experiences are sure to stand out, I just don't see why anyone could have a hard time holding individuals accountable for their actions rather than try to blame an entire community for the acts of the few. More so because it doesn't seem to happen in other sub-communities. If one were to hold the entire PvE community accountable for the actions of posters like Ashen_T/Doc_Flowers (anyone remember that guy?), there'd be no one else playing this game. Same with the Tanker community and posters like Johnny_Butane. If people can recognize that one jackass does not represent the whole there, why think it's that way for PvP?
|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Thing is, unless you can truthfully purport to speak for "the majority" or "the whole" of the PvP community, the actions and words of brain-dead douchebags like the aforementioned nameless one are what will continue to be foremost in the minds of non-PvP'ers being groomed to participate in PvP.
Again, the majority of the problems with PvP aren't technical. They're social. |
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
Quote:
If you could link me to the thread, I would be happy to read it and understand your point a little better. Absent that I have to go with my recollection and interactions in the game.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Well there is a big thread on the market forum where the PvP community in no uncertain terms lays out they like having better gear than the other guy and using it to bash em, don't expect it to go over well with them.
|
When the devs beta tested Recluse's Victory and gave everyone level 40 and enough cash to buy SOs, TONS of people liked it -- diehard PvPers, casual PvPers, even normally non-PvPers posted how much fun they had with that system.
Additionally, while it is true that most PvPers will want to have the "best" PvP character using the "best" powers and the "best" slotting, the largest, organized, and most competitive PvP occurred on the test server partly because players from all the different servers could compete and partly because players could have infinite access to the best IOs by copying over characters. (best is in quotes because it changes with the game and is subject to some varying opinions).
I will grant you, however, that there is a group of PvPers who feel that they have "worked" on creating the ultimate killing machine and don't want everyone to have what they have for free or to have their monster watered down.
But if there were an place in Praetoria where anyone could create a character, level it, slot it with SOs, and go into a PvP fight, I believe that even that group would be happily participate. That way they (and others) could keep their monster build for PvE and the other PvP zones but still have a way to compete with other players on relatively equal footing and without all the emotional baggage that comes from their beloved character, which they outfitted with all the most expensive goodies, getting two-shotted.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
Quote:
For me, it's a difference in the level to which an idiot can affect my game. In PVE, someone can verbally offend me. In this game, the worst he could do is follow a low level character around and killsteal while I'm trying to finish a street sweeper mission. All I have to do to remove an idiot from my PVE game is ignore them and enter a mission without them on my team.|
Originally Posted by Reiraku
While the negative experiences are sure to stand out, I just don't see why anyone could have a hard time holding individuals accountable for their actions rather than try to blame an entire community for the acts of the few. More so because it doesn't seem to happen in other sub-communities. If one were to hold the entire PvE community accountable for the actions of posters like Ashen_T/Doc_Flowers (anyone remember that guy?), there'd be no one else playing this game. Same with the Tanker community and posters like Johnny_Butane. If people can recognize that one jackass does not represent the whole there, why think it's that way for PvP?
|
In PVP, ignoring an idiot doesn't help. They can still kill you. Since that is also the kind of person that thinks teabagging is funny, they'll often have custom emotes setup for the sole purpose of being offensive. And if they can keep finding me, they can interfere with whatever I'm doing over and over. Which is why I don't enter the PVP zones. Ever. Not for Shivans, not for nukes, not for badges. Not even for the exploration/lore badges that are still needed for accolades that would grant me a permanent health or endurance bonus.
Quote:
On a related tangent, this is also one of the bigger complaints about CO. They decided to emphasize open world over instanced missions, presumably because reverting to the oldest model of MMO design is best and the result was griefing where players would camp quest objective spawn points and harass other players by killing the objective before those with the mission could. There are always players who find the most fun in hindering the fun or enjoyment of others.|
Originally Posted by ShadowsBetween
For me, it's a difference in the level to which an idiot can affect my game. In PVE, someone can verbally offend me. In this game, the worst he could do is follow a low level character around and killsteal while I'm trying to finish a street sweeper mission. All I have to do to remove an idiot from my PVE game is ignore them and enter a mission without them on my team.
In PVP, ignoring an idiot doesn't help. They can still kill you. Since that is also the kind of person that thinks teabagging is funny, they'll often have custom emotes setup for the sole purpose of being offensive. And if they can keep finding me, they can interfere with whatever I'm doing over and over. Which is why I don't enter the PVP zones. Ever. Not for Shivans, not for nukes, not for badges. Not even for the exploration/lore badges that are still needed for accolades that would grant me a permanent health or endurance bonus. |
There are some really mature, helpful PvPers, but on the forums and in game the most vocal and prolific members of the PvP community have normally been the jackholes who apparently feel that winning can only occur if someone else loses. This has lessened quite a bit since many of the more offensive PvPers left when the new mechanics were added, but the newer system also diminished the PvP community as a whole.
Still, my experience in zones has been that most of the time no one can hinder pursuit of accolade-related badges for very long or very effectively. Things like nukes and Shivans is a little different, but both are generally much easier with a team anyway, which helps a great deal when confronting persistent griefers. They tend not to enjoy having to face multiple defeats even if they also succeed at hindering players.
i'll admit to having been a jerk in PvP on one occasion. A bots MM was attempting to attack a firebase in Bloody Bay and i kept confusing his bots. After a couple minutes i stopped. It was obviously pointless since my build didn't have enough damage to defeat him anyway, so all it was doing was interfering with his fun. i guess i have some sort of personality flaw where making others unhappy doesn't really add to my happiness. Pleasure is not a zero sum game.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
Quote:
because there are so many. one thing that really seems to escape you as you continue to try to make this point is that there is a reason why such a large number of people have negative opinions of the pvp community. A jerk can bother a few people, but do you really think that such a large portion of the community would have these feelings if they hadn't seen a lot of this kind of behavior by members of the pvp community. especially after the behavior after issue 13. johnny is a joke, everyone knows that and treats him accordingly. people like serps and -ilr , as well as other well known jerks i can't mention because they still play were encouraged by members of the pvp community. when johnny posted we mocked him and refuted him, when serps posted persoanl attacks on other players and the developers, you and other pvpers quoted him and agreed with him, so maybe we are holding people responsible for their actions.|
Originally Posted by Reiraku
While the negative experiences are sure to stand out, I just don't see why anyone could have a hard time holding individuals accountable for their actions rather than try to blame an entire community for the acts of the few. More so because it doesn't seem to happen in other sub-communities. If one were to hold the entire PvE community accountable for the actions of posters like Ashen_T/Doc_Flowers (anyone remember that guy?), there'd be no one else playing this game. Same with the Tanker community and posters like Johnny_Butane. If people can recognize that one jackass does not represent the whole there, why think it's that way for PvP?
|
As i said earlier, its isnt everyone, but it is a subsection that seems to naturally develop in pvp communities, and not just here. My best guess is that while some people want real competition with variable strategies and even take the effort to organize community building events(the better end of the pvp community), some people really like that they can screw up someone's fun.
Quote:
The majority of the die-hard anti-pvp people I've encountered base their sentiment on a couple negative encounters, often in cases that are ambiguous at best from the perspective of pvpers (eg. he killed me while I was badging, even though I told him I was there to get a badge!). I've run across many people that swore off pvp after ONE incident where they were taunted in a pvp zone (eg. "haha die nub!").| A jerk can bother a few people, but do you really think that such a large portion of the community would have these feelings if they hadn't seen a lot of this kind of behavior by members of the pvp community. |
In pve, I've encountered racists, sexually abusive people, all kinds of morons. Once I got kicked off a task force because my friend got a call that his father died. We weren't pulling our weight so we were unceremoniously dumped from the team without any expression of condolence.
If I reacted the same way to pve as many do to social interations in pvp, I would've bailed on this game after 3 months. You hear the jerk pvper explanation so much because it's an easy explanation for people who are disinclined to pvp period.
It's moot anyways. They won't fix pvp. Your odds are better just waiting on a better game to come out than for these devs to do anything here.
Blacklisted
"I'AM SATANS FAVORITE CHILD!!"
that must be it, of the small pvp community there are only 2 or 3 jerks, but they were EVERYWHERE and despite the brave attempts of the community leaders to rein them in, they were too busy building houses for the homeless and curing cancer to rein them in, so those 2 or 3 bad attitude guys went on to irritate a good 40% of the general community. it couldnt be that there is a larger gorup than that who likes being sadistic jerks, that clearly never has been brought up here or in any other game with pvp, its just those 2 or 3 guys, thanks for the clarification, all those separate forum names that used the general forums as a toilet post issue 13 till the moderators purged so many threads, they must have been alt accounts of those guys. and the current pvpers with the blatantly insulting sigs, they are just using them to warn the other upstanding members how not to be. kudos good sir, your efforts are appreciated.
*sarcasm meter explodes*
Go easy man...seriously...I can't keep buying these things.
Personally it does seem that PvP in any game brings out the worst in people, would I casually PvP again...probably not...just nolonger appeals to me personally.
I wouldn't mind the added difficulty of the PvP rules and mobs and players if there was something decent to show for it. A minuscule chance of a recipe from players on a timer really isn't enough. Shivans and Nukes really aren't it, because they seem designed to do "hit and run" kind of combat, I'd rather have the reward come steadily during mass chaotic combat instead of the directed missions/events; several rolls at the luck ticket instead of one sure fire while looking over one's shoulder, if you will.
Currently, with none of my AoE-focused, PvE characters do I have a shot at winning any PvP fight against a good PvP-built character played by anyone who knows what they're doing. Yes, I've tried a number of ATs and never succeed. So with PvP recipes in the mix, the only the only thing I have to gain in direct PvP competition is to potentially give the player who is already better equipped than me the tools to be even better against me next time. Further increasing the gap.
So why should I bother wasting my time for no benefit, other than the "Spent 5 hours in this zone" badge, which I can AFK ?