Would you PVP if PVP worked better?
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2009-12-31 22:18 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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First off, I want to make it clear. I'm not anti-PvP. |
Originally Posted by FrozenDeath
The majority of the die-hard anti-pvp people I've encountered base their sentiment on a couple negative encounters, often in cases that are ambiguous at best from the perspective of pvpers (eg. he killed me while I was badging, even though I told him I was there to get a badge!). I've run across many people that swore off pvp after ONE incident where they were taunted in a pvp zone (eg. "haha die nub!").
... If I reacted the same way to pve as many do to social interations in pvp, I would've bailed on this game after 3 months. You hear the jerk pvper explanation so much because it's an easy explanation for people who are disinclined to pvp period. |
People in these forums that have run into me when I'm in an anti-something mode have a pretty clear idea when I'm anti-something and my rep rep takes a pretty massive hit from my stands.
I don't even think that the people that don't want to PvP are anti-PvP - they just don't want to PvP.
There is a difference between not wanting or liking to do something and being against it (aka anti-).
We are talking about percentages here.
There are a higher percentage of "people who behave badly" in PvP than there are in PvE.
I have never heard of situations in PvE where a player is repetitively kicked off a team and called a noob* because their stats weren't as high as another player on the team.
I have never heard of a situation were a player was intentionally repeatedly left to die by the other players on a team and then mocked for being a noob.
I certainly haven't been in PvE situations where teammates were constantly mocking the other team members.
I don't run into "people who behave badly" on most of the teams that I play with - and I PuG about 98% of the time.
When I'm in PvP zones, I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm usually actively avoiding the other players. When encounters occur, it seems that 50% of the time the opponent feels the need to be insulting and/or has an insulting or non-genre name. ( I'm sorry. I don't play City of Heroes to fight "I PWNZ U", "U R NOOB", "do not attack", .I.", or Ihavelettersthatlooklikeotherssoallmyfriendsnamesl ookthesameasmine). I'm sorry, but I'm not going to PvP with you if you aren't at least trying to stay in the genre.
I don't complain about people attacking me while I'm badging in a PvP zone. At the same time, I don't expect to be aggressively mocked if I don't want to battle someone that has the ability to defeat me if I don't work actively to avoid them.
That is to say, if someone gets the drop on me. I'm not just going to let them kill me.
If I get into a conflict and it doesn't look like I have a chance of taking down my opponent, I'm not just going to let them kill me.
If someone feels that it's okay to mock me while I'm trying to have fun, I'm not going to game with them.
It's pretty much that simple.
Now if I had a chance to go join a Mayhem/safeguard mission in progress and actively work for one side or the other - I'd probably at least check it out.
I definitely think that the mission holder should be the one to have the ability to toggle on/off the PvP setting.
I definitely think that you should get a warning as to the mission level and settings when you are clicking to enter an active PvP mayhem/safeguard.
I also think that that only the other side should have the option of entering an active mission of this type and that the number of the opposing side should not exceed that of the side currently in the mission.
I'm assuming it would have to include some kind of public alert system on an event channel or only be accessible through the arena (with pre-set sides).
Is this do-able, I don't know. However, I don't feel that any of the PvP zones have much of a comicbook feel to them. The kinds of things that go on in PvP zones tend to be standard "war game" PvP conventions. This isn't a "war game", it's a "comic book game".
I'm not saying to overwhelmingly go with the Comic Book Code, but comic book-type super vs super action.
I generally have found that there is less time for the bad behavior in a PvP timer-environment where players have the option of leaving the mission with the click of a button.
[*- I'm using noob as a general catch all insult of any type.]
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Maybe if you are that burned out and can't try to post comments on ways to improve PvP or increase the population of PvP'rs in the game, this isn't the thread for you.|
Originally Posted by FrozenDeath
Lol gimme a break. There are jerks in every sphere of this game. The reason that jerks drive people away from pvp is that the people so affected don't like pvp
..... Mine is one of general fatigue from dealing with both types of people. |
I see neither in your recent posts.
Your posts seem to be trying to prove that the reasons others find to avoid PvP are not valid.
The fact that people are posting those positions here shows that they are quite valid regardless of how you feel about the issue.
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nah, i was being a jerk there, it couldn't be helped really.|
Originally Posted by FrozenDeath
Well, see you ***** about these forum trolling pvpers in the same post as you write that. The difference is some of their stuff is funny in a juvenile antics sort of way. Try getting some objectivity on your own attitude. Mine is one of general fatigue from dealing with both types of people. |
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I think that part of the divide between your perspective and Reiraku's is that there are objectively jerky players and subjectively jerky players. Objectively jerky players are those that not only defeat you, they also mock you and hound you incessantly. Most reasonable people would agree that a person like that is a jerk.|
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
that must be it, of the small pvp community there are only 2 or 3 jerks, but they were EVERYWHERE and despite the brave attempts of the community leaders to rein them in, they were too busy building houses for the homeless and curing cancer to rein them in, so those 2 or 3 bad attitude guys went on to irritate a good 40% of the general community. it couldnt be that there is a larger gorup than that who likes being sadistic jerks, that clearly never has been brought up here or in any other game with pvp, its just those 2 or 3 guys, thanks for the clarification, all those separate forum names that used the general forums as a toilet post issue 13 till the moderators purged so many threads, they must have been alt accounts of those guys. and the current pvpers with the blatantly insulting sigs, they are just using them to warn the other upstanding members how not to be. kudos good sir, your efforts are appreciated.
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Subjectively jerky players are those that a certain player has taken offense to his actions, but other reasonable players do not find the actions to be jerky. The most common and frequently cited example is a PvPer that defeats a badger in a zone. The badger feels that the PvPer is a jerk for delaying his acquisition of the badge, but many reasonable players would think that merely defeating a player in a PvP zone, without additional verbal or other harassment, is merely playing the game as designed.
I believe Reiraku is saying that there are a few objectively jerky players, but the whole PvP community is being tagged as jerks based on other players subjective experiences.
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Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
no, that snark post was for frozen, i was still trying to be objective with reikaru. and i have said about 3 times that i know that its not the whole community, its just that for such a small community, it does seem to have a higher percentage, and it is not just coh players. Heck, lets take it to bartle's archetypes. the constructive pvper like riek probably is is closer to the achiever type, they play, they improve, they dont intentionally destroy people's fun, and often they try to make sure new players feel welcome, i am not referring to them, but a surprisingly large proportion of the communtiy is "killers" people who'se fun is generated from ruining other people's play time, not competing. they dont care if they win or lose, hell, they often are bad pvpers, but since killing them doesn't shut them up, even if you get a group together and beat them senseless, they still win because they forced you to interrupt your fun play to go deal with them. they continue ruining the image of pvpers for everyone. and lets face it, after issue 13, emotions did run high and a lot of people who may have been constructive players lashed out a lot and ticked off people who previously had defended pvpers from the more aggressive anti guys. I count myself as one of the changers, things got too heated, too personal and lost civility,a nd the escalator was usually a pvper.
as for the badgers, that is their fault, but there is problems there too, if a badger asks a pvper to quit fighting them and the pvper responds civilly that the rules of the pvp zone are that they are a target, that would be subjective, but if the pvper berates the player with a string of profanities, as is usually reported in these situations, well then that is less subjective.
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No we're not talking about percentages. We are talking about anecdotal experiences and the conclusions people are drawing from them. You're stating an opinion, not any statistically derived percentage.|
We are talking about percentages here. There are a higher percentage of "people who behave badly" in PvP than there are in PvE. |
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| Maybe if you are that burned out and can't try to post comments on ways to improve PvP or increase the population of PvP'rs in the game, this isn't the thread for you. |
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I see neither in your recent posts. Your posts seem to be trying to prove that the reasons others find to avoid PvP are not valid. The fact that people are posting those positions here shows that they are quite valid regardless of how you feel about the issue. |
I stated my opinion based on my experience promoting pvp in this game. If you don't agree with it, that's fine. Other than that, I'd rather you get out of my grill with the stuff about not being constructive or not appreciating the opinion of every unique snowflake that passes my way.
Blacklisted
"I'AM SATANS FAVORITE CHILD!!"
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But there aren't so many. A point that seems to escape those that aren't familiar with the PvP population as a whole in this game. People don't see a lot of this behavior because they don't go into the environment to see said behavior in the first place. More so than that, they easily remember the jerk that said something to them, but not the other 19 people who hadn't said a thing. They go back to PvE, write off PvP, and continue with the game they enjoy. You don't see that in PvE because once they've stopped playing PvE, they've left the game. |
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
because there are so many. one thing that really seems to escape you as you continue to try to make this point is that there is a reason why such a large number of people have negative opinions of the pvp community. A jerk can bother a few people, but do you really think that such a large portion of the community would have these feelings if they hadn't seen a lot of this kind of behavior by members of the pvp community. especially after the behavior after issue 13. johnny is a joke, everyone knows that and treats him accordingly. people like serps and -ilr , as well as other well known jerks i can't mention because they still play were encouraged by members of the pvp community. when johnny posted we mocked him and refuted him, when serps posted persoanl attacks on other players and the developers, you and other pvpers quoted him and agreed with him, so maybe we are holding people responsible for their actions.
As i said earlier, its isnt everyone, but it is a subsection that seems to naturally develop in pvp communities, and not just here. My best guess is that while some people want real competition with variable strategies and even take the effort to organize community building events(the better end of the pvp community), some people really like that they can screw up someone's fun. |
When posters like J_B posted, members of the Tank community mocked and refuted him. When posters like Galactor or Zen_Shadow posted, members of the PvP community mocked and refuted them just the same.
Also, I'd like to know when I've actually quoted or responded to either serps or ilr in any personal attack on the players or devs. Both before and after i13, I rarely addressed or responded to known PvP'ers and especially not in regards to personal attacks. I gladly admit my own attack on the devs post-i13, and I stand by it. As far as Serps or ilr, I think I've responded to Serps once in an obviously fake RMT thread he made.
I do honestly believe that there isn't a higher percentage of jerks in PvP than PvE, but rather that the manner of which you interact with them and the size of the respective populations as a whole makes it much easier to remember the particularly negative aspects of it.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
Man, you'd think I of all people would know not to post a PVP thread in this forum.
Eh well, live and learn.
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I think it's been a good discussion. Very civil.
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Originally Posted by Prof_Backfire
Man, you'd think I of all people would know not to post a PVP thread in this forum.
Eh well, live and learn. |
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For a discussion about PvP on *these* forums? It's about the most civil discussion of the topic I've ever seen. I'm actually rather surprised at how stable the whole thread's been.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
Ya know, if Villains were doing somethng truely evil and heroes had to stop him, then I say PvP, but lets give the villain a fighting chance. If the hero's try to attack in-masse against a single villain, it should be propartionatly harder to do so. In the "Themed Zones", an ambushed villain (or Hero) should be able to call for reenforcements from NPCs. This feature should only work when there are a specific number of PC foes are within a certain radius around you.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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So, basically, your desire to discuss PvP in a calm, rational manner brought about a result opposite to that which was planned or expected. Who would have seen that coming, Prof_Backfire? |
Originally Posted by Prof_Backfire
Man, you'd think I of all people would know not to post a PVP thread in this forum.
Eh well, live and learn. |
Feel free to try out my AE mission arc, # 473452: Praetorian Redemption
@Valerika
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I plead insanity.|
Originally Posted by Solicio
So, basically, your desire to discuss PvP in a calm, rational manner brought about a result opposite to that which was planned or expected. Who would have seen that coming, Prof_Backfire?
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I think the real problem is that the basic methods of PVE and PVP are so different. In PVE, you're slaughtering dozens of enemies that only take a few attacks to go down, have simple and predictable attack patterns and behaviours, and generally don't use particularly fancy powers with any strategy. In the case of EBs, AVs, GMs etc they're more like big dumb bags of HP but still don't need any more strategy than 'lay on debuffs and damage til dead'. The entire game is designed and balanced around this.
Whereas in PVP, fighting other players is not at all comparable to fighting any kind of NPC. The playing field is completely different and many attacks may not be useful at all. The difference may be just too big to reconcile, both in player mindset and gameplay balance.
I now understand why a lot of MMOs have you fighting only a few enemies at a time, which tend to be very powerful- it's slightly more similar to fighting other players in PVP. The lack of travel powers and such also makes it less awkward to fight other players.
Personally, I think PVP in this game is a lost cause, but there's lessons to be learned.
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Originally Posted by Prof_Backfire
I plead insanity.
I think the real problem is that the basic methods of PVE and PVP are so different. In PVE, you're slaughtering dozens of enemies that only take a few attacks to go down, have simple and predictable attack patterns and behaviours, and generally don't use particularly fancy powers with any strategy. In the case of EBs, AVs, GMs etc they're more like big dumb bags of HP but still don't need any more strategy than 'lay on debuffs and damage til dead'. The entire game is designed and balanced around this. Whereas in PVP, fighting other players is not at all comparable to fighting any kind of NPC. The playing field is completely different and many attacks may not be useful at all. The difference may be just too big to reconcile, both in player mindset and gameplay balance. I now understand why a lot of MMOs have you fighting only a few enemies at a time, which tend to be very powerful- it's slightly more similar to fighting other players in PVP. The lack of travel powers and such also makes it less awkward to fight other players. Personally, I think PVP in this game is a lost cause, but there's lessons to be learned. |
Yeah, I think this ultimately is the root of the problem. Most people that play this game really don't want something challenging. They want exactly what you described. A lot of people complain that the bad attitudes and trash talk are to blame, but really it's the fact that they don't want to play against a thinking opponent that can actually beat them in such a convincing fashion. They want to log on and lay waste to hundreds of limited AI minions that realistically pose little to no threat. PvP rarely fits into that mold.
A corrallary to what Antigonus said is the following:
To person with a PvP mindset, PvP is so much more fun than PvE that it is worth potentially a lot of effort to get in and get good.
A person with a PvE mindset is already having plenty of fun, and the (seemingly mythical) extra fun you get from PvP doesn't seem worth it. Especially to a PvE person who has never been good at PvP or wanted to be good at it: they don't know what they're "missing".
A workable analogy might be the person who likes reading books versus the person who likes camping out. To an outdoorsman, such activities as "hiking into the mountains" "wading through a stream" and such IS the fun.
To the bookworm, that translates to "trudging uphill a long way" and "getting wet and cold and icky" and they'd rather not, thank you.
It's a task getting each to see the other point of view, and a further task to get either to the point where they could compete in their chosen fields fairly, let alone to the point where it would actually be challenging for both.
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Just like in real life! Haha.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
LOL you never tried to take off from an air field that was surrounded by flakpanzers and had Messerschmitts and spitfires orbiting above just waiting to vulch you while you tried to take off.
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| $8/hr to play but loads of fun just the same. |
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One person's fun is another person's misery.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
A workable analogy might be the person who likes reading books versus the person who likes camping out. To an outdoorsman, such activities as "hiking into the mountains" "wading through a stream" and such IS the fun.
To the bookworm, that translates to "trudging uphill a long way" and "getting wet and cold and icky" and they'd rather not, thank you. It's a task getting each to see the other point of view, and a further task to get either to the point where they could compete in their chosen fields fairly, let alone to the point where it would actually be challenging for both. |
I have some friends who absolutely loathe Real-Time-Strategy games, but love turned based strategy games. Simply because they want to think about each and every move they make, and they hate getting rushed.
To answer the OP...
Sure, I'd PVP if I found it fun, although I can't imagine ever doing it very often. I don't have any conceptual objection to it, anyway. I'm not sure I can say exactly what would make it fun for me, though. Having the powers operate in substantially the same way in PVP and PVE would help, as I don't feel like learning a whole new set of rules to do something casually. PVP being largely team-based might make it more enjoyable for me, too, with team objectives like capturing flags, or having safeguard/mayhem style maps.
I'd might more likely to try it again if the PVP zones were busier, too. If I could be guaranteed to go into a zone and find a couple of dozen people on each side, and be able to join in for a while and then leave.
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Lol gimme a break. There are jerks in every sphere of this game. The reason that jerks drive people away from pvp is that the people so affected don't like pvp. If pvp were fun to them, they would learn to ignore the jerks or simply run their own events to avoid them. If you suddenly eliminated all the jerks from the game, the people who don't like pvp now are not going to suddenly start liking it and spending a lot of time doing it.
I ran PVPEC on Protector where I did have to rein people's behavior in. I more or less guaranteed people attending the events that everyone would play nice and not insult other players. It was a waste of time. The people who expressed so much concern over behavior did not get turned on to pvp.
Blacklisted
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