Would you PVP if PVP worked better?
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2009-12-31 22:18 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I caught alot of heat by saying it, but I still stand by the idea the in PvP there should be no enhancements or set bonuses, just powers and inspirations. Everyone likes to say you need skill to PvP, but beyond a basic understanding of how powers work, it just aim and shoot. I think levels should still matter as a way of understanding that a level 12 shouldn't go against a level 50. I would PvP because I want to fight a creative and interesting character outside of the regular PvE NPCs.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
I used to enjoy the old pre-13 PVP so much so that I used to run a weekly event on Defiant called "Friday Night Fight Club."
However since I13 effectively killed off PVP it's as much as I can do to go into a zone or the arena. the only times I go to PVP zones now is for shivans or nukes, but if it were to be fixed I'd love to take part in it again.
Thelonious Monk
The problem with the PvP isn't the PvP mechanic... it's the majority (in my encounters) of the PvP players.
So, no, I doubt I will ever try PvP again, in this game, or any other.
"City of Heroes. April 27, 2004 - August 31, 2012. Obliterated not with a weapon of mass destruction, not by an all-powerful supervillain... but by a cold-hearted and cowardly corporate suck-up."
I wouldn't care what they did to PvP, or if they offered a free Nemesis Horse travel power to anyone who engaged in PvP, I still wouldn't engage in it.
One of the original attractions to me of this game was the complete lack of PvP. I didn't want it then, I still have no interest in it now, nothing could make me engage in it.
Hell, my villain badge toon still doesn't have a load of badges that could be pretty easily acquired simply because they require PvP time. Plus, there is no story to PvP, and that's a big part of why I still play this game after nigh on 5 years.
So no ta, I'm quite happy playing PvE, thank you very much.
Warning:
The above post may contain Cynicism, sarcasm and/or pessimism. If you object to the quantities contained, then tough.
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Good point. There are people here who hate PvP in this game, but enjoy it in others.|
Originally Posted by Soul Train
The problem with the PvP isn't the PvP mechanic... it's the majority (in my encounters) of the PvP players.
So, no, I doubt I will ever try PvP again, in this game, or any other. |
And there are people who hate PvP itself, regardless of the game. It doesn't matter if it's Halo, Street Fighter, Metal Gear Online, or even Chess. Maybe it's the smacktalk that goes on? Or maybe the person just isn't good at going against other players? Who knows?
I don't hate the PvP here, but it could use some work. But if Capcom gives Street Fighter Alpha 3 online capabilities? Please believe I will be all over that.
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nope
I would also maybe play an ONLINE streetfighter game. That would be awesome.
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Agreed
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Originally Posted by Soul Train
The problem with the PvP isn't the PvP mechanic... it's the majority (in my encounters) of the PvP players.
So, no, I doubt I will ever try PvP again, in this game, or any other. |
"A great love is alot like a good memory. When it's there and you know it's there,but it's just out of your reach. It can be all that you think about. You can focus on it and try to force it but the more you do, the more you seem to push it away. But if you're patient and hold still...maybe...just maybe...it will come to you. I just need to be somewhere she can find me" - Church from Red vs Blue
If PVP offered some good character development rewards, as well as some good plots, I might...
...I just might...
No, I still wouldn't. I'm just not the competitive type.
(Plus, the PVP community further encourages me to stay far away from PVP.)
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Yup, this. I'm really disappointed with the experience of PVP in this game. And not just that I almost always lose, either |
Originally Posted by bAss_ackwards
Maybe. I enjoy PvP in other MMOs so I don't see why I wouldn't give it another go if they made the PvP "work better."
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. I'm not a person who minds losing at all, as long as the actually playing is fun. "It's not if you win or lose but how you play the game" is an adage I take very strongly to heart. If the game play is fun, if I happen to lose, I'll lose quite happily. But the gameplay of PVP in this game just isn't fun enough for the time investment needed.
One of the things I liked alot about WAR was I could hop in, make a character, que up for a PVP scenario and actually be effective (if I was smart and knew my role) from about level 2 on up with no special gear. It was fun, especially for someone who finds number crunching and build tweaking kinda boring. I just wanna play. I merrily chopped, hacked, and hexed the forces of Order for several months until population imbalances made the RVR zones a bit of a joke. Up until that point, I never had more fun in an MMO.
I've done PVP in this game from time to time and probably will in the future when I'm bored, but honestly I have better PVP games available to me right now that I can play. I can play Left 4 Dead in Versus mode, I can spin up Exteel, I could resubscribe to WAR if I really wanted to, and there's a ton of shooters I can PVP in. Global Agenda is out next month. Steam is having a mega end of year sale on tons of PVP games.
PVP here just doesn't engage me like those games do.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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The problem with PVP that is hard to break into and relies heavily on knowing the right "tricks" is that it means that only a certain marginal group of players will be involved in it, and that means it also will attract the anti-social subset of that group. However, the kind of trash talking elitists in this game are not always the dominant force in other PVP games.|
Originally Posted by Soul Train
The problem with the PvP isn't the PvP mechanic... it's the majority (in my encounters) of the PvP players.
So, no, I doubt I will ever try PvP again, in this game, or any other. |
You shouldn't let what are actually a small but vocal minority ruin an entire style of gameplay for you.
Another thing WAR did right was make sure that players on opposing sides had no way to communicate to one another.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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No, and I will tell you why.
A couple of weeks ago, I went into RV with some of my SG mates (some of us were on our heroes and others were on their villains) and we had a little team battle. It was fun and there was no competition or smack talk or anything nasty.
As soon as people from outside the SG joined, it turned into a gank and smacktalk fest and was no longer fun. This is what the majority of my PVP experience has been like, by the way. The only PVP I've actually enjoyed is Wintergrasp in WoW, which feels more like an event than PVP anyway.
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This is also a good point. I'd love to see some story based PVP. Or at least some persistency to wins/losses in PVP. If those wins and losses carried over and stuck around beyond the goldfish bowl (directing or influencing a story), it might be more worthwhile. PVP here doesn't MEAN anything, and in a game like this it really should.
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Originally Posted by Canine
Plus, there is no story to PvP, and that's a big part of why I still play this game after nigh on 5 years.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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I avoided mentioning WAR in my post, but WAR is what I was referring to, and it's of interest to me that someone else feels the same. My Witch Hunter was mighty entertaining PvP, especially fun to scrap against a tank-type for a while then circle around and hit them with an armor-ignoring backstab. Sometimes I was quick enough and caught 'em pantsless, sometimes they'd get me first. Shame the population drop killed it all.
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Originally Posted by Smurch
One of the things I liked alot about WAR was I could hop in, make a character, que up for a PVP scenario and actually be effective (if I was smart and knew my role) from about level 2 on up with no special gear. It was fun, especially for someone who finds number crunching and build tweaking kinda boring. I just wanna play. I merrily chopped, hacked, and hexed the forces of Order for several months until population imbalances made the RVR zones a bit of a joke. Up until that point, I never had more fun in an MMO.
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Honestly? I don't know. I dabbled in PvP a bit pre-i13 with the only character I had that was even remotely suited, a dom. I found it fun on occasion, but it was also the start of my incredible dislike for a very large fraction of the PvP population in this game. I don't think the current system is really an improvement over what we had, but even if it were overhauled once more (and into something functional this time), I don't think I'd ever really get into it unless the two fundamental problems I have with the whole thing were fixed.
The first problem is one that I'm not sure *can* be fixed, and that is the simple fact that a very large number of powerset combinations are nearly useless in PvP. For a primarly PvE focused player who doesn't play all day and doesn't level up characters very fast, it's a big hurdle to look at my stable and realize that all but a couple are would be nothing more than farm bait in PvP, no matter what build or tactics I use. Not to mention that even if a character has appropriate powersets, I'd still need to slot out an entire alternate build, which is a hassle and an expense I'd rather be putting toward slotting out some other of my characters' primary build. I'd rather have a system where more combinations were viable and skill was the paramount factor rather than enhancements (I'd still lose, of course, but at least I wouldn't need to spend as much money to lose), but I'm not sure if it's possible to create such a system that would be satisfactory in other ways.
The other problem, though, is out of the hands of those who design the system, and it lies squarely with the people who use it. While the current predominant attitudes among the PvP population remain (and I am *not* just talking about zone idiots), I won't be joining them. I am not a hypercompetitive person, and I find that mindset foreign. In many games, the population segregates itself, and I can avoid those more concerned with winning than with playing. In this game, they seem intent on forcing their hypercompetitiveness on everyone else, and I won't play under those conditions.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
That's my rationale for avoiding PvP as well.
Code:
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"City of Heroes. April 27, 2004 - August 31, 2012. Obliterated not with a weapon of mass destruction, not by an all-powerful supervillain... but by a cold-hearted and cowardly corporate suck-up."
PVP in this game has always been lousy.
That being said, I did PvP occasionally prior to the complete rebalance, because, sure, my controller may have been useless against a brute, but he could destroy a blaster or corruptor, meanwhile, my brute or tank were pretty useless if I couldn't get to you, but if you let me got to melee range, you were toast.
Rock-Paper-Scissors worked better than "everyone's rather pathetic and nothing is particularly good at much of anything"
No
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I think you underestimate our fools, sir.
Why /duel is a bad idea
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No. It's not a question of how it works, but rather of what kind of game it is in. RPGs, by and large, rely on preparation. They rely on having the right build, on having the right gear, on knowing the right tactics and basically on being prepared for what you are about to face. If you are prepared, you win. If you are not prepared, you go back and prepare so more. There is a VERY narrow margin of combat experience where you are NOT prepared, but you can still muscle through on the weight of sheer grit or blinding brilliance, but for the majority of the game, outcome is decided before battle even starts. And for a single-player game, that's just fine. I'm prepared to deal with my enemies and I expect them to fall before me. The AI doesn't hold grudges, and the game is designed to let me win if I push the right buttons. I don't mind, and indeed rather enjoy having the experience tailored to let me win.| Would you PVP if PVP worked better? |
Fighting against other players is a whole different kettle of fish entirely, an expression which I'm sure will make a native speaker somewhere put a reward on my head. When I fight against other people, I like for both of us to be as equal in terms of preparation as the game will possibly allow, such that the actual fight comes down to personal skill, not cheese. If someone is prepared and has a marked advantage over me, then the fight isn't going to be a lot of fun for me. Even if I win, I will still grumble, because I'm not in it to win it, I'm in it for a fun fight, which cannot happen with a handicap. If I'm prepared so that my opponent is at a severe disadvantage, then I'm still not having fun, partly because I can imagine how much it sucks for him, partly because I want a fun battle, not just to dominate. This doesn't have to mean that everyone is the SAME, but merely that everyone is given a character who is culminatively equally good. This is where balance comes in, but in an RPG, all builds will never be equally good. For that reason alone, it's a lost concept.
I enjoy fighting other people in fighting games, because there's little preparation to be done there. You just pick a character (or two or three) and go. I enjoy fighting other people in games like Battlefield 2142, because even though there are unlockables, they aren't all that much stronger than regular kits. And, yeah, it always sucks to shoot someone, grab his kit and realise he was brand new, but from experience, most people have more unlocks than me, anyway, so it's about even. I'd fight other people in those, but I would never want to fight other people in an RPG. When the game revolves around being so strong it's not fair to your enemies, it's silly to ask for fairness.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Set it back to Issue 12 rules for the most part. At least give us an Issue 12 toggle for Arena where we'll have No Travel Suppression, no Heal Decay, the old Mez system and none of the crazy damage by activation stuff...or at least not a primarily damage per activation system.
Oh, and get rid of global resists.
That would be a huge first step in the right direction. Fixing the Placate Proc would be swell too...
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in my experience (capcom vs snk, guilty gear XX#reload) it can be hard to play precision characters with network latency, but one on one fighters do work out better than mmo pvp. at worst you get one moron at a time, rather than an entire community of them.|
Originally Posted by Perfect_Pain
nope
I would also maybe play an ONLINE streetfighter game. That would be awesome. |
added note: this is NOT saying that all pvpers are members of that community, I met a lot of fun players back in the day, but that socially retarded 25%-40% of the pvp community that shows up in any game with pvp, usually higher numbers the more you can attack defenseless or heavily outclassed players to disrupt their play, is prevalant enough to make people not want to play.
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You can meet 9 friendly and nice PvPers, but you always remember the one smacktard before any others.
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Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
in my experience (capcom vs snk, guilty gear XX#reload) it can be hard to play precision characters with network latency, but one on one fighters do work out better than mmo pvp. at worst you get one moron at a time, rather than an entire community of them.
added note: this is NOT saying that all pvpers are members of that community, I met a lot of fun players back in the day, but that socially retarded 25%-40% of the pvp community that shows up in any game with pvp, usually higher numbers the more you can attack defenseless or heavily outclassed players to disrupt their play, is prevalant enough to make people not want to play. |
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Though competition can often bring out the worst in people, and I dislike that uber-competetive mindset, I enjoy having the varied experiences that only battling against another player can provide. As for how I feel it should be fixed...
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I'd keep the new mez system, but otherwise, that sums it up. The new mez system strikes a nice balance between making them useful but not overpowering. But as someone whose main character is a Scrapper, the global resists, both among damage types and archetypes was especially bothersome to me. It just feels really unfair to me that ranged AT's get from their one epic shield what melee AT's that are supposed to be tough devote an entire primary/secondary set to doing. And as for damage types, having everyone equally resistant to all damage types defeats the whole purpose of having a system of damage types. As long as the checks and balances among types are equal, it adds an interesting dimension to the game, which the change that gave everyone global resists took away.|
Originally Posted by Neuronia
Set it back to Issue 12 rules for the most part. At least give us an Issue 12 toggle for Arena where we'll have No Travel Suppression, no Heal Decay, the old Mez system and none of the crazy damage by activation stuff...or at least not a primarily damage per activation system.
Oh, and get rid of global resists. That would be a huge first step in the right direction. Fixing the Placate Proc would be swell too... |
I mostly did my PvP in the arenas, and I feel that the changes to how respawning works was a step in the right direction, but too big of one. I like that a player can't respawn the instant they're defeated, but don't like how at X second intervals during the match, everyone who's down respawns. I'd have respawning work more like a boxing match, where there's a 10-count, and if they don't rez or get rezzed in those 10 seconds, they respawn and the kill is counted then.
Though I dislike PvP in this game as it is now, I wouldn't advocate removing PvP entirely as others in this thread have. I find the lack of connection between PvP and PvE content to be a benefit. And because of that lack of connection, removing it would not improve the game, and would only needlessly upset the existing PvP community that enjoys what it has to offer, even if they do feel the system they PvP under is in desparate need of improvement.
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I would definatly go back to pre-I13 PvP, I would resub my second account if they did that. I gave up on PvP at I13 because it just stopped being fun and I see it as the wrong direction for this game to take. If they made PvP more meaningful, actually commited time to caring about PvPers, and for once took feed back from the more articulate PvPers I think this games PvP could be great. Of course there are elitist PvErs who want PvP in all forms to die because how dare anyone play a game different from them, but as long as PvP isn't madatory then so what?
On the note of people who say that PvPers have a poor attitude...I have been treated worse than RPers on Virtue than I ever was by PvPers on Freedom. I have played on Liberty, Freedom, and Virtue and to be honest the most friends I ever made were on Freedom. Virtue I have meet some quality people but for the most part people live in a circle that excludes everyone else and if you try to step into that circle they viciously attack you. Then if you set up another circle to close to them they viciously attack you. I could go on and on but the point is, there are jerks everywhere and people need to learn to just ignore them. Yes I know they can attack you but meh, that is what can happen in PvP learn to ignore it. I still manage to enjoy my time on Virtue despite the fact I have met some truely terrible people there.
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i13 PvP is idiotic but Freedom RV gets fun when it's busy.
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dUmb, etc.
lolz PvP anymore, Market PvP for fun and profit
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You've obviously never PvP'd on a Rad or Storm, or been on the receiving end of Power Boosted Flashfire in an arena match (or, for that matter, get mezzed and be dead before it wears off). At least under the old rules you could actually do something about being mezzed - now you've just got to hope it wears off soon enough or hope your teammates are fast enough on their heals to keep you alive.|
Originally Posted by Spectreblade
The new mez system strikes a nice balance between making them useful but not overpowering.
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The I13 changes suck - a lot (case in point: they were designed to let PvEers and less experienced PvPers compete on an even footing but all that happened was the high end got lopped off, the target audience tried it once or twice and didn't come back, and the remaining higher-end players are forced to play handicapped even against each other) - but the only reason I continue to PvP is because it's unpredictable and PvE is incredibly dull and boring.
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i would pvp if everyone would just stop moving and attacking me... and turn off all shields... and not use inspirations... and no taunting when i am ganking a squishy... and yeah thats about it...
No one goes there anymore, it's too crowded...
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