What is the point of knockback?
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2009-12-02 18:15 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
Well Im going to put my opinion in on this.|
Originally Posted by marc100
I am rolling my first energy/energy blaster and its pretty fun. Im at lvl 11 with her now.
I then teamed up with a lvl 50 scrapper to help him and I start firing. Immediately he says "No KB". So I looked at my powers and they ALL caused knockback lol. I couldnt help him more than throwing my apprentice charm and using sands of mu. I felt pretty useless. So while the blaster is fun to play, I dont want to play her anymore because I dont want to hear "no KB" for the next 39 levels and people not wanting to team with me because of knockback |
I personally dont like knockback, scattering mobs annoy me, but truthfully this is irrellevant, so is each individuals opinion.
What really matters here, is in general more people dislike it than like it. If you take an energy blaster expect to be told to stop, kicked, have people leave team, etc.
This does NOT make them a poor player or a good player, it just means their opinion differs from yours. The two sides of this argument are NEVER going to reach an agreement, the devs are extremely unlikely to change anything at this point.
So if you choose to play a knockback set, just get used to all the stuff that comes along with it. To me, energy and knockback powers are not good enough to be worth dealing with all this.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
Quote:
This.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Get Hover or the Jetpack from the vendor in the Shard. If you are over your oppenents, KB becomes knocking them straight down into the pavement and they don't travel far.
|
I would use Fly over them on my NRG/NRG Blaster. In the caves when you can't be overhead i would KB them into a wall. I like KB but on my AR/A Def KB will ruin my Oil Slick, Rain of Arrows, etc . . .
Much like a spider traps a bug, wraps it up, then starts chewing on it when it's completely unable to escape or defend itself.
Re: What are dominators... Orignally posted by: Mid_Boss, 06/28/09 11:08 PM
Quote:
It's been mentioned, but if you have enough knockback flying around such that enemies simply can't stand up long enough to attack, you are afforded perfect safety |
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Throwing an enemy backwards looks cool, but just moving them from point to point B rarely gets much done. It can, occasionally. That's a good argument to have 1 or 2 knockback powers. But not enough of one for what's going on with Storm, for example.
|
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Any scrapper in this game who is paying attention to his DPS is either soloing something ridiculous, or an idiot.
This is not a game about measuring DPS. Learn to move around and fah on your precious rhythm.
Quote:
QFT!|
Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
Any scrapper in this game who is paying attention to his DPS is either soloing something ridiculous, or an idiot.
This is not a game about measuring DPS. Learn to move around and fah on your precious rhythm. |
Another thing I don't get: Attack Chains. Who the heck actually uses a static attack chain without deviation? Do they just have a line of mobs lined up to smack down one by one and therefore never need to 'stop' attacking to move from spawn to spawn or foe to foe and therefore interrupt this perpetual cycle? Do they not use AoEs at opportune times? Or use a weaker attack when the foe is almost defeated? Does clicking the same cycle of buttons *NOT* get boring!?
WHERE'S THE LOGIC!?!?
Quote:
I like your thinking.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Knockback would tacticly useful if (pick some): - Some enemies derived a *benefit* from being close to each other, and the players needed to keep them apart. - Knockback lowered defenses/resistance during/after the flight - Knockback triggered Controller Containment - Enemies that fall a long distance because of a knockback took major damage for the "uncontrolled fall" - Enemies that hit an obstacle while being knocked back take damage as if they fell the same distance (this is an old rule used in many table top games to handle "wind" type powers) - Foes could be knocked into obstacles on the map. (Is there a superhero movie somewhere where the villain *doesn't* get knocked into a vat of acid?) - Enemies suffered -Range for several seconds after standing back up, so that they *have* to run back at you, instead of standing back up and shooting you with their superior range - Powers (maybe in an Optional Power Pool) were available that gave enemies resistance to knockback, but not defense, so that they fall over instead of fly (e.g. some kind of garrote trick where you trap their legs and they trip rather than fly backward). Put it in a Power Pack and we'll pay you ten bucks for it. Hah. |
One thing I always thought would be cool: certain attacks or powers generate alternate/greater effects when a foe is knocked down.
Off the top of my head of effects to add when used on a knocked down foe:
Crippling Axe Kick- +30% critical hit chance. Because then it's not only a precision axe kick, it's a bloody *stomp*!
Roots/Entangle- +50% chance of mag2 hold. Tell me the difference between wrapping vines around a standing foe's body and entangling a fallen foe with vines where their feet should be.
Energy Blast- +40% of additional smashing dmg. To can the term 'Blast 'em into the ground'.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
Any scrapper in this game who is paying attention to his DPS is either soloing something ridiculous, or an idiot.
This is not a game about measuring DPS. Learn to move around and fah on your precious rhythm. |
Is that asking someone else to subjugate what they find fun?
How is what you wrote here materially different than:
"Any Blaster in this game knocking mobs all over the place is either some RP weirdo, or an idiot."
Parsing these purposefully inflammatory statements out:
1) Starts with marginalizing this to one AT;
2) Then minimizes a legitimate activity (measuring DPS or KB) that some find fun;
3) Presents a thinly veiled attack on another legitimate activity (soloing mobs intended for groups or roleplaying);
4) And ends with the naked attack you tried to soften with the preceding.
More proof that the pro-KB side is just as (not more necessarily) unreasonable as the anti-KB side.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Quote:
Yup. Both sides are made up by humans.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
More proof that the pro-KB side is just as (not more necessarily) unreasonable as the anti-KB side.
|
Humans have an uncontrollable tendency toward cognitive dissonance and must therefore do everything they can to support the choices they make, while belittling the choices of others, so that they can feel good about those choices.
Gaming forums provide provide me hours of entertainment because of this.
Since most gamers have some level of competition within them, it seems that there must always be a winner and a loser, a right and a wrong, even on a forum. General discussion is simply not tolerated a good portion of the time.
On topic, for me KB is tons of fun simply because I don't worry about DPS unless I am soloing and doing test builds. If I am in a group, I my goal is just to relax and KB makes me giggle. Since I have not been in a PUG in years for anything other than things like invasions and the Halloween event (I am lucky enough to have 5 RL friends playing) I have my own slanted view on the subject.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
Quote:
Maybe because RP has absolutely sod all to do with this?|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
How is what you wrote here materially different than: "Any Blaster in this game knocking mobs all over the place is either some RP weirdo, or an idiot." |
Wail on someone else for a change.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
|
See what I mean.
Take knockback powers and get caught up in the middle of this argument.
No power or powerset is worth getting in the middle of this epic ....storm.
This inherently makes the anti-knockback argument stronger. If you take no knockback powers or a few situational ones, you never have this argument. If you do take energy or storm you are going to have this every day of the characters life if you pug, since 1 or 2 out of 8 will have an opinion on this.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
The point of knockback is to be the CoH community's equivalent of the abortion, religion, or gay marriage debate. There will be lots of shouting but no rational arguments from either side; instead there will be strawman arguments and childish personal attacks everywhere.
As a minor side effect, it knocks enemies backwards.
Also, both the 5th Column and Axis America use knockback, do we really want them as role models for young heroes?
Quote:
I'd say the biggest difference is that I don't hold that opinion, which I'm pretty sure is the point of why I said what I said in the first place.
|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
"Any Blaster in this game knocking mobs all over the place is either some RP weirdo, or an idiot."
|
Quote:
You mean like Cimerorans and Devouring Earth and Sky Raiders and other buffing enemies who get benefits from remaining close to each other or their emanators or force field generators?
|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Knockback would tacticly useful if (pick some):
- Some enemies derived a *benefit* from being close to each other, and the players needed to keep them apart. |
Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Shubbie
This inherently makes the anti-knockback argument stronger. If you take no knockback powers or a few situational ones, you never have this argument. If you do take energy or storm you are going to have this every day of the characters life if you pug, since 1 or 2 out of 8 will have an opinion on this. |
Only the idiots who think those are the "knockback sets", with little knowledge of how much the effect is built into the game engine and therefore mostly unavoidable.
Same folks who aren't smart enough to use the search button. Why would I listen to an idiot? We don't need this same argument several times a month just because folks are too lazy to use the tools they are given, both in game and out of game. Lazy and stupid people should not ever be followed by those capable enough to realize that they are indeed stupid and lazy.
The idea that you don't have problems by getting rid of knockback is just stupid. Every set you take will generate the possibility of problems because players are stupid, lazy, and generally uncooperative with their fellow man. Everyone is too damn greedy to work together. This game's current problems are all products of lazy, stupid, and greedy players.
Quote:
My scrappers, for one. Certain powers combine nicely when used in a certain order, and sticking to a standard attack chain means I never need to watch the tray to see what powers are up.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
QFT!
Another thing I don't get: Attack Chains. Who the heck actually uses a static attack chain without deviation? |
1) MA/Regen: Jump kick (someone heading through the roof isn't going to be hitting me) -> storm kick (with jump kick slotted for knockback, this connects just as the target is coming back down. Very satisifying.) -> thunder kick (just in case one of the previous missed) -> crane kick (a nice finisher for minions -- send 'em flying)
2) Claws/SR: Followup (damage and to-hit buffs if it connects) -> focus (knockdown) -> slash (defense debuff) -> strike (filler while followup recharges). Between the damage buffs, the to-hit buffs, and the defense debuffs, this absolutely shreds tougher targets.
One of these days, my forcefield defender should get together a knockback-heavy team and run safeguard missions for the sole purpose of watching the bodies fly.
Quote:
Did... did the knockback thread just get Godwin'd? |
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Also, both the 5th Column and Axis America use knockback, do we really want them as role models for young heroes?
|
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Quote:
This. Turn KB into KD by turning the floor into a wall.
|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Get Hover or the Jetpack from the vendor in the Shard. If you are over your oppenents, KB becomes knocking them straight down into the pavement and they don't travel far.
|
Quote:
I admit to nothing |
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Did... did the knockback thread just get Godwin'd?
|
One reason why I stopped playing my Storm/Dark Defender 
.
Honestly Lightning Storm Does Decent Dmg and Zaps end. Yes it causes kb but honestly IT isn't that bad. I've had an Ill troller, energy blaster and a PB on my team and I dealt with it some of us needs to learn how to adapt to the team.
After being told in Tell to not use Lightning Storm I left team and haven't played him in over 6 months. People need to chill with the whole no kb thing.
i am fond of KB personally. but i will say that when i'm playing my dm/sr brute i like to have lots of aggro to keep my fury up. having to chase my aggro is, at times, a bit of a pain. that being said though, i am a proponent of KB all 'n' all. additionally, i think KB would be way super doubly cooler if you could KB npcs into other npcs for additional KB and/or damage. like bowling with hellions! amirite?! amirite?!
The validity of your statment does not increase in direct proportion with the frequency and volume at which you speak it.
Quote:
I love it when they bounce! Wormhole is one of the best powers of the game :P
|
Originally Posted by Dystrophy
i am fond of KB personally. but i will say that when i'm playing my dm/sr brute i like to have lots of aggro to keep my fury up. having to chase my aggro is, at times, a bit of a pain. that being said though, i am a proponent of KB all 'n' all. additionally, i think KB would be way super doubly cooler if you could KB npcs into other npcs for additional KB and/or damage. like bowling with hellions! amirite?! amirite?!
|
O.o
KB is pretty damn USUAL in comics I read.
Invincible, ExMachina, Runaways, X-Men, hell I could name some second string comics where you wouldn't expect it and you see it.
Just saying. That's one thing COH and more of the case Champions actually got right about the genre.
Either way, I'd be for IOs that help turn KB into KD/KU. Whether the devs would be is another story, as I can't see them allowing you to turn all of energy blast's powers into a mini footstomps.
It'd probably only be few select powers if they ever came up with such an IO.
And LOLs at the 1212323231th KB thread this year. 
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Quote:
Yeah people who are asking for a change are lazy and stupid... I dont know whats funnier- that statement or the idea that someone is calling people lazy (negatively) on a forum for a video game. |
Originally Posted by brophog02
This game's current problems are all products of lazy, stupid, and greedy players.
|
Actually the best part was that you might possibly be too "stupid and lazy" to think up a synonym or two for "stupid and lazy."
Yeah there probably is a kb thread on every page of the archetypes forum. However, if you actually read the OP the topics typically start slightly/totally different from eachother, then get boiled down to the same generic arguement.
thugs bruiser's handclap treatment ftw!
I don't hate knockback. I love it. It's a great mechanic and is part of what makes CoH fights so insane.
The problem I have with it is that tactic-ly, it doesn't have enough purpose. Throwing an enemy backwards looks cool, but just moving them from point to point B rarely gets much done. It can, occasionally. That's a good argument to have 1 or 2 knockback powers. But not enough of one for what's going on with Storm, for example.
Knockback would tacticly useful if (pick some):
- Some enemies derived a *benefit* from being close to each other, and the players needed to keep them apart.
- Knockback lowered defenses/resistance during/after the flight
- Knockback triggered Controller Containment
- Enemies that fall a long distance because of a knockback took major damage for the "uncontrolled fall"
- Enemies that hit an obstacle while being knocked back take damage as if they fell the same distance (this is an old rule used in many table top games to handle "wind" type powers)
- Foes could be knocked into obstacles on the map. (Is there a superhero movie somewhere where the villain *doesn't* get knocked into a vat of acid?)
- Enemies suffered -Range for several seconds after standing back up, so that they *have* to run back at you, instead of standing back up and shooting you with their superior range
- Powers (maybe in an Optional Power Pool) were available that gave enemies resistance to knockback, but not defense, so that they fall over instead of fly (e.g. some kind of garrote trick where you trap their legs and they trip rather than fly backward). Put it in a Power Pack and we'll pay you ten bucks for it. Hah.